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DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Return to Four Mile Ranch ...
« Reply #25 on: September 21, 2009, 04:44:12 PM »
Kirk,

I see my post hit a nerve.  I struggled with more detailed responses to Matt, but discarded them.   While he put himself into this, I nonetheless don't relish attacking his credibility and integrity.  Believe it or not I have always had a certain respect for him despite my constant disagreement with him.   The Dittman reference seemed about the least offensive way to say what I wanted to say, because saying nothing doesn't seem right.

David, by throwing out the name Earl Dittman you are essentially alleging that Matt Ward's reviews of courses have no credibility because his purpose is not to actually review the courses but to obtain attention for himself, gain access to courses, and have his reviews be used by clubs to further their marketing efforts. In essence, you are calling him a whore.

I hate to speak for Mr. Dittman, but Earl Dittman doesn't consider himself a "whore" and he isn't explicitly paid to praise movies.  He thinks his reviews are truthful and accurate.  Unlike other so-called experts in their ivory towers, Dittman isn't snobby about it and he doesn't have a chip on his shoulder about certain styles and certain artists.  Many other critics have their mind made up about a movie before they even see it, liking or hating it  based on some preconceived notion or expectation about it.  They sometimes even pan movies they have never even seen!   They are the snobs and the narrow-minded ones, whereas he is out there seeing everything, giving everything a chance and judging it on his own merits.   And he doesn't praise everything, and has panned plenty of movies and is proud to say that he has panned some movies that all the other so-called critics automatically thought were so great.  As for the junkets, freebies, gifts, access, perks, and sneak peaks, sure he gets that stuff, but not always.  He hass had to spend plenty of his own money (or his company's.)  Besides, the gifts, access, perks, accomodations, sneak-peeks, etc. are not all they are cracked up to be, anyway.  

In other words, Earl Dittman is a hell of a lot like Matt and others who have no problem sometimes taking gifts, access, and freebies even though they are supposed to be objectively praising the gift-horse.  But studios know who provides positive press and who doesn't, and they take it into consideration when deciding who will be privy to the perks.   Same for the golf industry.  

To answer a few of your other points . . .  If you don't think Matt's purpose is at least in part to obtain attention for himself, gain access to courses, and have his reviews used by clubs to further their marketing efforts, then you haven't been paying attention.   Matt essentially writes fluff pieces on these courses and then tries to sell them to the types of media outlets who are NOT going to carry anything excessively critical about these places.   The golf industry doesn't bash the golf industry, and travel rags and local news rarely bash the local destinations.   And while golf courses don't use the same advertising model as the movie industry, Matt's reviews are sometimes used directly by those courses to promote themselves.  

But I didn't call Dittman a whore.  You did.   So Kirk, if Dittman is a whore, then why isn't Matt?

Quote
Do you have proof? Do you have more than what "may" be true, or "might" be true? Can you connect the dots between a positive review of an otherwise critically-panned course that he has either posted or published, and use of that specific review by the course?

Proof of what?  Matt has admitted that sometimes these places give him gifts and perks like accommodations, food and drink, free golf, and access.  I'd be shocked if he's never received promotional merchandise like shirts, hats, bags, whatever.    Hell, rumor has it that even a lowly rater or two gets offered that stuff on occasion.  He reviews those courses without bothering to mention the consideration, and what do you know?  Many of these reviews and articles are very positive.  

Let's take his two of his most recent new reviews for example.   Cornerstone and Red Ledges.  I'll bet that in addition to access and free golf (which are themselves quite valuable) Matt received consideration of significant value from at least one of these places, including (but not limited to) first class accommodations and food and drink.  

What say you Matt?   You've already told us that receiving valuable consideration could never impact your opinion, so why not tell us what you got and let us make up our own mind.    Provided we could get the access (which we probably couldn't)  what would have your experiences at Red Ledges and Cornerstone cost, rack rate, for "Joe Six Packs" like me and Kirk?

And Kirk there is another issue here as well, and that is whether Matt is actually ever paid explicitly paid to promote the places he promotes . . .

_______________________

Matt,

I was and am very hesitant to bring this up, but I guess we should just clear the air.   My understanding is that your PR practice was aimed at representing various golf related entities and activities such as golf travel and leisure, golf tournaments, golf real estate developments, golf course developers, and golf architects.  My understanding is that your firm represented courses that have repeatedly praised, and about which you have written and published reviews, and not just here.  This sure as hell isn't consistent with what you said in your last post to me about your PR experience..  

But then maybe I am misinformed?  Is my information incorrect or have I misunderstood i?   Honestly I hope so.  

_________________________________

On what I hope is a lighter note . . .

Although not about a golf course, here is very Dittmanesque "Editorial Review" from Amazon.com from Matt"

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/product-description/0977659003/ref=dp_proddesc_0?ie=UTF8&n=283155&s=books


"…The Bare Essence of Golf delivers no less powerfully than a Tiger Woods tee shot." -- Matthew J. Ward / Golf and Travel Writer 2006

The product in question was apparently some sort of instructional or inspirational calendar . . . available at a Mens Club near you?



Delivers no less powerfully than a Tiger Woods tee shot?   At least now we know what turns Matt on.  
« Last Edit: September 21, 2009, 04:48:48 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Bart Bradley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Return to Four Mile Ranch ...
« Reply #26 on: September 21, 2009, 04:49:06 PM »
Holy cow...you can't even make this stuff up!!!

 ???

Bart

Kirk Gill

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Return to Four Mile Ranch ...
« Reply #27 on: September 21, 2009, 05:52:13 PM »
Just to be fair to Earl Dittman (who I'm not that familiar with) here's what it says about him on Wikipedia, for what it's worth:

"Dittman is known for his overwhelmingly positive, and heavily quoted review blurbs for widely panned movies. Film and media critics have alleged that Dittman's reviews are intended to get him mentioned in international advertising and press material for movies, which has given him the pejorative title of a Quote Whore. Critics have also noted that some of his quotes have been included in advertisements for movies that had not been pre-screened for critics."

I get where you're coming from, and you're right, it did hit a nerve, because if you're going to throw Matt in the same bucket, you are essentially saying that he has no credibility. Of course, maybe he doesn't, but it's a nasty piece of business to say it without specific proof, especially proof that he's being remunerated specifically to write positive reviews. And as you mention, if raters are getting the same kind of perks, what singles him out?

That said, that last bit was FUNNY.

Where do I get that calendar? Oh, right, it's not 2006 any more..........

"After all, we're not communists."
                             -Don Barzini

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Return to Four Mile Ranch ...
« Reply #28 on: September 21, 2009, 07:58:52 PM »
I get where you're coming from, and you're right, it did hit a nerve, because if you're going to throw Matt in the same bucket, you are essentially saying that he has no credibility.

I am throwing Matt in the same bucket as Dittman because Matt is operating much the same way only with golf instead of the movies.   They even jusfity their behavior with very similar excuses.   But YOU you are the one claiming that Dittman has "no credibility."    I am asking why you think that about Dittman but not Matt.  

Quote
Of course, maybe he doesn't, but it's a nasty piece of business to say it without specific proof, especially proof that he's being remunerated specifically to write positive reviews. And as you mention, if raters are getting the same kind of perks, what singles him out?

Again, proof of what?  My issue is that Matt has taken very valuable freebies from places he is supposed to be objectively reviewing, and this  in and of itself unethical, especially when it is not disclosed.    I don't have to offer "proof" BECAUSE MATT ADMITS HE HAS TAKEN THE VALUALBE FREEBIES.  

You seem to think it is only unethical if I can prove that Matt is intentionally shaping his reviews to keep the freebies flowing, but I disagree. The conflict makes it unethical, as does the failure to disclose the conflict.  

Surely Matt doesn't believe he is unduly influenced, but then neither does Mr. Dittman..   Yet you seem perfectly comfortable condemning Mr. Dittman as unethical and a whore.   DO YOU HAVE PROOF THAT MR. DITTMAN IS ACTUALLY SELLING HIS POSITIVE REVIEWS, OR THAT HE DOESN'T BELIEVE WHAT HE WRITES.    Or is the fact that he is receiving freebies and churning out a high percentage of fluffy reviews enough?    

As for Magazine Ratings, you haven't been around long if you think I've given them a pass.   While I have nothing against individual raters, I have long been a critic (sometimes a quite vocal one) of the the entire process, including how the freebies and access may skew the ratings.  I am about as popular among raters as I am among certain Philadelphians.  

But even so, the conflict in Matt's situation is a step beyond.  Raters have some degree of anonymity when it comes to rating the course in that the courses cannot read their reviews and then decide whether to give them freebies.   They pretty much all get freebies, whether they give good reviews or bad.   In Matt's case their is a built in pressure for his reviews to be positive-- like Mr. Dittman, if Matt suddenly starts trashing these places they are not likely to have him back and other courses will be less likely to have him out in the first place.  

Now there is another issue at an entirely different level, and that is whether Matt was actually and directly being paid to promote these places.   I'd like to give Matt a chance to clear the air on that before I get into why I suspect that this may be the case.   Like I said, I hope I am wrong and would rather give Matt another chance of explaining before I get into it any more than I have.


Quote
Where do I get that calendar? Oh, right, it's not 2006 any more..........

Forget the calendar, I want whatever perks were provided at the promotional junket.    I also wonder who handled the P.R. for The Bare Essence of Golf?
« Last Edit: September 21, 2009, 08:07:35 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Jim Engh

Re: Return to Four Mile Ranch ...
« Reply #29 on: September 21, 2009, 10:14:39 PM »
Ouch! You guys are tough. You two give Lucy and Ethel a run for their money....

As the line between 'sharing an honest opinion' and 'aggenda driven bias' seems to have been misplaced in this discussion, and as my own integrity seems somehow tied to this issue of Matt's motives, I have chosen to chime in.

Matt Ward does not and has never had a professional relationship of any kind with me or any of my courses. His opinions are his own. Even the not so positive comments about Sanctuary from the day of our only meeting.

Hopefully, that puts that matter to bed once and for all.

Please feel free to beat the tar out of each other about personal opinion differences.   

Jim Engh


Kirk Gill

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Return to Four Mile Ranch ...
« Reply #30 on: September 21, 2009, 10:54:00 PM »
You brought up Dittman, I didn't. And I'm certainly not the only person calling hiim names (http://efilmcritic.com/feature.php?feature=712). That said, as I said before, I don't know Matt, except for from this site. I know he's written for the Jersey Golfer. Is this where he's publishing the pieces that you're excoriating? Or are you talking about his writeups here on GCAtlas?

And Jim, thanks. At this point my tar is all beaten out. I hope I get a chance to play at Four Mile Ranch soon.
"After all, we're not communists."
                             -Don Barzini

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Return to Four Mile Ranch ...
« Reply #31 on: September 22, 2009, 01:03:43 AM »
Mr. Engh,  From my perspective your integrity is in no way tied to Matt's motives.   

________________________________________

Kirk,   

I brought up Mr. Dittman, and I think the comparison is on point.  While I disagree with almost all of Matt's reviews (here and whereever he can get them published) my concern is with the conflict and the lack of disclosure.  I still don't understand how you distinguish between what Matt thinks he is doing and what Dittman thinks he is doing.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Return to Four Mile Ranch ...
« Reply #32 on: September 22, 2009, 04:01:16 AM »
David

I understand where you are coming from.  I don't like the idea of raters being in any way compensated by the clubs/courses they rate.  Ideally, the publisher she be providing compensation and the rater should be unknown to the officials of the club.  Being given freebies by the club at the very least gives the appearance of a conflict of interests.  But I think you are going too far with the unethical comments.  We are talking about one guy rating courses, some of which he gets compensation from.  Matt's style and approach to how he comments is very consistent.  Sometimes he is positive and other times he ain't.  To be fair, Matt can't be boxed because it is difficult to tell where he will stand on a course before reading his blurb.  OK, it would be nice if Matt disclosed up front is financial status with the club in question, but we don't often hear about freebies or not when others post casual reviews.  I never disclose the financial arrangements which allows me to play some courses, but so far as I can recall nobody attacked me for not being upfront.  So, give the guy a break and stick to commenting on his reviews.  If you have a problem with Matt's professionalism, you should take it up with Jersey Golfer or whatever PR company Matt owns/works for.  GCA.com isn't a professional site except for the odd guy getting (will be?) paid to write In My Opinion pieces so we don't have the same standards of professionalism. 

Ciao 
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Return to Four Mile Ranch ...
« Reply #33 on: September 22, 2009, 12:15:09 PM »
Sean,   I understand what you are saying and your points are well taken.   I do think that what is going on with Matt and some of these places is a large step beyond what goes on with individual magazine raters.  And then there is the issue of whether Matt was actually working P.R. for places he has hyped.    I am hoping that my information is wrong on this point, but thus far Matt has not clarified.

As for Matt's reviews, unlike you I find them incredibly predictable in tone and content which is why I started wondering if he was working for some of these places.  And whether he is working for them or not, I don't see this website as a place for fluffy pieces better placed in local travel sections that in real discussions of golf course design.   But while I think my point is worth making, this was probably not the thread on which to make it.   

That all said, you are correct that the emphasis should be on the substance of Matt's reviews.  I have gotten sidetracked by this issue away from focusing on the substance of the reviews and ought to get back to that.   

Before we move on though, I'd really like for Matt to clear up this business about whether or not he has pumped courses or designers that clients of his PR firm.    I trust you agree that that is a much more serious issue than getting perks and then writing positive reviews.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Return to Four Mile Ranch ...
« Reply #34 on: September 22, 2009, 01:15:17 PM »
Sean,   I understand what you are saying and your points are well taken.   I do think that what is going on with Matt and some of these places is a large step beyond what goes on with individual magazine raters.  And then there is the issue of whether Matt was actually working P.R. for places he has hyped.    I am hoping that my information is wrong on this point, but thus far Matt has not clarified.

As for Matt's reviews, unlike you I find them incredibly predictable in tone and content which is why I started wondering if he was working for some of these places.  And whether he is working for them or not, I don't see this website as a place for fluffy pieces better placed in local travel sections that in real discussions of golf course design.   But while I think my point is worth making, this was probably not the thread on which to make it.   

That all said, you are correct that the emphasis should be on the substance of Matt's reviews.  I have gotten sidetracked by this issue away from focusing on the substance of the reviews and ought to get back to that.   

Before we move on though, I'd really like for Matt to clear up this business about whether or not he has pumped courses or designers that clients of his PR firm.    I trust you agree that that is a much more serious issue than getting perks and then writing positive reviews.


David

Thats ironic.  Because Matt's "reviews" are so consistent in their style and tone, I would never think the guy was on "the take" as you seem to imply. 

I don't get the impression that even if guilty of this allegation you make (stress allegation here) that this is a terribly important crime.  I still think your beef should be with whoever employs Matt rather than the fact that on this site Matt may talk up courses which pay him.  I don't have much interest in whether Matt makes a full disclosure or not.  I am more interested in Matt purchasing a camera and using the damn thing to illustrate his points. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Rob Rigg

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Return to Four Mile Ranch ...
« Reply #35 on: September 22, 2009, 01:31:21 PM »
I am more interested in Matt purchasing a camera and using the damn thing to illustrate his points. 

I think we can all agree with this 100%!  ;D

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Return to Four Mile Ranch ...
« Reply #36 on: September 22, 2009, 01:36:01 PM »
Sean again I understand what you are saying but wanted to clarify a few things.   I am really concerned with two different issues:

1.  With most of Matt's reviews I don't think he is explicitly "on the take."  For example I believe Matt and Jim Engh when they tell my that Matt isn't being paid to hype Mr. Engh's courses.   But I do think that the way that Matt operates puts certain pressures on him which make frank criticism and analysis difficult.  He sometimes gets access, accommodations, green fees, etc. from these places and these places give that stuff out because they want positive reviews.  If a reviewer is known for trashing places, they are not going to want him around.   Likewise, Matt isn't just posting his reviews here, he is trying to sell them to various publications that aren't necessarily interested in in depth criticism and analysis of the golf design.   Have you ever opened up a travel section of a local paper or a freebie at your local course and read,  "The brand new Golf Course at the Narrow Bridges of Oak Hill Farm Mountain Valley, a course which cost 20 million to build, is an overpriced slog that directly undermines everything that golf should be.   Avoid it at all costs.  How to Get There:  Take I-25 . . . .  For more information see ad on page 32."   I haven't.

2.   As for his P.R. work,  if he's been explicitly paid to pump up courses and then does so without even divulging his relationship with the course, then he is "on the take."  I feel pretty strongly that this sort of thing shouldn't go on here.  These discussion boards are no place for press releases disguised as arm's length reviews.  
« Last Edit: September 22, 2009, 01:38:03 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Andy Troeger

Re: Return to Four Mile Ranch ...
« Reply #37 on: September 22, 2009, 11:05:21 PM »
While I may disagree with Matt almost as often as I agree with them, personally I think he is very consistent with what he likes and dislikes in terms of golf course architecture. I don't particularly think its fair to point him into a box by describing two or three things and being overly simplistic about it, but from reading Matt's comments on at least 50 courses that I have also played, I can say that Matt would be about the last person on this site that I'd accuse of writing reviews based on the issues David has mentioned.

And again, that doesn't in the slightest mean I always agree with his comments or appreciate his writing style, but on this one I'll gladly support his efforts.

And I pretty well agree with what Sean A. has said in his last couple of posts, and especially about the camera!
« Last Edit: September 23, 2009, 12:16:30 AM by Andy Troeger »

Mike Wagner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Return to Four Mile Ranch ...
« Reply #38 on: September 24, 2009, 03:07:22 PM »
I'd like to read Matt's response.  I would find it IMPOSSIBLE to be unbiased if receiving ANYTHING from a course I'm reviewing. 

Bart Bradley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Return to Four Mile Ranch ...
« Reply #39 on: September 24, 2009, 03:38:52 PM »
I'd like to read Matt's response.  I would find it IMPOSSIBLE to be unbiased if receiving ANYTHING from a course I'm reviewing. 

Mike:

The truth is that you would not be alone...As a physician, I have heard for years how receiving swag from pharmaceutical reps did not change my colleagues perscribing practices.  "Not me...it has no effect on me at all...I just do what the patient needs".

BUT, it turned out that it did make a difference...a big one...and now, pharma is forbidden from providing such swag....

To be honest, I suspect the same thing probably holds true for magazine panelists (or puff-piece writers)...although they are sure to deny it and be unaware of the effect it has upon them....just like the my fellow docs.

Now, David has accused Matt of receiving PR money and then promoting something without divulging the conflict...this is a much more significant and overt bias...and I too would like to hear Matt's side of the story.

Bart

Kirk Gill

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Return to Four Mile Ranch ...
« Reply #40 on: September 25, 2009, 01:51:22 AM »
How many writers for golf magazines pay their own way to play the golf courses about which they write?

I'm not asserting anything here, except my own ignorance. Are golf course writers routinely comp'ed, or do they pay their own way?

Secondly, I had a chance to play at Four Mile Ranch tomorrow morning, and couldn't make it (taking the kids to the capitol and then the Mint, what can I say?).


Dagnabbit.
"After all, we're not communists."
                             -Don Barzini

Jason McNamara

Re: Return to Four Mile Ranch ...
« Reply #41 on: September 25, 2009, 02:42:13 AM »
I'm not asserting anything here, except my own ignorance. Are golf course writers routinely comp'ed, or do they pay their own way?

Don't know either, though occasionally you see things like "The author was a guest of XYZ Resort."

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