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Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
"..the finest golf course in the world.."
« on: September 10, 2009, 06:51:22 PM »
This article appeared in newspapers across the country in July 1908. Gates was very a wealthy man, but a million dollars was a hell of a lot of money in 1908, especially for a golf course. It must have been an extraordinary project.

Was the golf course ever built, and if was built, what happened to it? And was Gates agent and/or architect? 

Rich Goodale

Re: "..the finest golf course in the world.."
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2009, 03:21:47 AM »
They didn't call him "Bet a Million" Gates for nothing.....

Tim Leahy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "..the finest golf course in the world.."
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2009, 12:17:23 PM »
None of our historians are familiar with this? ???
I love golf, the fightin irish, and beautiful women depending on the season and availability.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "..the finest golf course in the world.."
« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2009, 12:25:02 PM »
Tim,

Can you spell highperboley? Some novice agent is going to build this course for him, and you expect our historians to know about what in all likely hood turned out to be a very mundane course?

At least, that would be my guess as to the result.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "..the finest golf course in the world.."
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2009, 12:40:30 PM »
TMac, I saw that article a couple of years back when I first got access to the America's Historical Newspaper database.  I've not been able to ever find out anything more about the proposed course.

However, me thinks this Gates fellow was a bit of a nut job, as this article from 1910 suggests.


@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Peter Pallotta

Re: "..the finest golf course in the world.."
« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2009, 12:40:56 PM »
I went on a quick search to see if I could find anything on Gates. In a 1905 article on the 'commercialsim' that was creeping into university athletics -- I think a young Yale athlete had just been expelled for taking monies to compete -- Mr. Gates (if it's the same guy) was not viewed very favourably:

"John W. Gates, the notorious, said no longer ago than last summer, in reply to the expostulations of a conscience stricken confrere, “People don’t ask you how you got your money, but have you got it; it makes no difference how you get your money—get it!” and the spirit dominating college sport to-day is about the same in character. Perhaps our athletic committee chairman is not so frank as Mr. Gates, but his energies are directed none the less determinedly toward a similar goal of achievement."

I kind of like that guy. In a strange way, I think he had a perfect understanding of the value of money, i.e. the only thing it's good for is throwing it away, on buying a whale, for example...
« Last Edit: September 11, 2009, 12:42:47 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Gib_Papazian

Re: "..the finest golf course in the world.."
« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2009, 04:02:12 PM »
That article - doubtless penned by a shameless shill - sounds exactly like the kind of self-aggrandizing tripe that The Donald expels from his ass about Trump National.

There is something vaguely comforting to know that every era had its pompous blowhards.

BTW, WTF do you do with a whale?

 

Jay Flemma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "..the finest golf course in the world.."
« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2009, 04:08:27 PM »
What do you do with a whale...IN TEXAS???? :o
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Gib_Papazian

Re: "..the finest golf course in the world.."
« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2009, 04:45:03 PM »
Perhaps Jerry Jones is a decedent of Gates.

I wonder how many here in the Treehouse carry enough hubris in their holster to believe themselves capable of building the "greatest course in the world" if provided unlimited funds?

Since I'm the 2nd most arrogant person alive after Wayne Morrison, I'll admit that if money were absolutely no object and I had an engineer/surveyor like a young Seth Raynor at my side, I am fairly certain I could cough up perhaps not the "greatest" course in the world, but one of the most interesting.

However, I would not purchase a whale no matter how much my net worth.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2009, 10:13:19 AM by Gib Papazian »

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "..the finest golf course in the world.."
« Reply #10 on: September 11, 2009, 05:07:42 PM »
Gib, you have a gift... in calling out and i.d'ing pompous pri)*(&ks, as hubristic humps...
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Carl Nichols

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "..the finest golf course in the world.."
« Reply #11 on: September 11, 2009, 05:10:20 PM »

BTW, WTF do you do with a whale?

 

Don't you bury it under a green? 

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "..the finest golf course in the world.."
« Reply #12 on: September 11, 2009, 06:56:26 PM »
Here are some more articles, these from a Dallas newspaper late in 1908. I detect some tongue and cheek banter going on here.

« Last Edit: September 11, 2009, 06:59:49 PM by Tom MacWood »

Neil_Crafter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "..the finest golf course in the world.."
« Reply #13 on: September 11, 2009, 07:31:13 PM »
TMac, I saw that article a couple of years back when I first got access to the America's Historical Newspaper database.  I've not been able to ever find out anything more about the proposed course.

However, me thinks this Gates fellow was a bit of a nut job, as this article from 1910 suggests.




Joe
Can you tell me how you access this database? Is it pay for view?
cheers Neil

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "..the finest golf course in the world.."
« Reply #14 on: September 11, 2009, 07:35:59 PM »
I believe that might be a bigotted reference to the migration of Czech or 'Bohemian' immigrants, that settled that area and are now a robust community in east Texas. 
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Peter Pallotta

Re: "..the finest golf course in the world.."
« Reply #15 on: September 11, 2009, 07:37:31 PM »
Neil - if Joe is using the one I'm thinking of (he may not be) it's at the Library of Congress, and it's free. Go it www.loc.gov, then click on the "Digital Archive" tab at the top of the page, and then the "Historic Newspapers" tab at the middle of the page.

Peter

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "..the finest golf course in the world.."
« Reply #16 on: September 11, 2009, 07:58:22 PM »

I wonder how many here in the Treehouse carry enough hubris in their holster to believe they are capable of building the greatest course in the world if provided unlimited funds?

Since, I'm the 2nd most arrogant person alive after Wayne Morrison, I'll admit that if money were absolutely no object and I had an engineer/surveyor like a young Seth Raynor at my side, I am fairly certain I could cough up perhaps not the "greatest" course in the world, but one of the most interesting.


What would the money do for you?

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "..the finest golf course in the world.."
« Reply #17 on: September 11, 2009, 08:05:01 PM »
TMac, I saw that article a couple of years back when I first got access to the America's Historical Newspaper database.  I've not been able to ever find out anything more about the proposed course.

However, me thinks this Gates fellow was a bit of a nut job, as this article from 1910 suggests.




Joe
Can you tell me how you access this database? Is it pay for view?
cheers Neil


Neil, one of the databases I use (America's Historical Newspapers) is a pay for view site that I have access to from my University.

@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "..the finest golf course in the world.."
« Reply #18 on: September 12, 2009, 09:28:19 AM »
I believe that might be a bigotted reference to the migration of Czech or 'Bohemian' immigrants, that settled that area and are now a robust community in east Texas. 

I think you are probably right. There appears to be some inside joking going on here.

Anthony Gray

Re: "..the finest golf course in the world.."
« Reply #19 on: September 12, 2009, 09:49:37 AM »


  When I first saw this thread it had THe Donald written all over it. On a side note I went to the Georgia Aquarium yesteday. It is the only one in North America with whale sharks. THey have 4 and they are huge.

  Anthony


Gib_Papazian

Re: "..the finest golf course in the world.."
« Reply #20 on: September 12, 2009, 12:27:26 PM »
Jim,

In answer to your question, with unlimited jing I would have the ability to purchase any property I wanted. The canvass is the single most important component  - especially for a rookie. The greatest courses in the world are usually routed on great land: witness Pac Dunes, Sand Hills, Ballybunnion, Shinnecock, etc. There is a price for everything and any property in private ownership can be had by adding zeros. Public lands can be obtained simply by greasing the palm of whichever filthy elected official has his greedy hands on the trigger. This graft does not limit me to Americans. Every single politician I have ever met can be bought to do your bidding. Party affiliation is irrelevant. There are no exceptions.

So, let's begin this fantasy by the purchase of the Inch Peninsula in southwest Ireland. Acres of sand dunes surrounded on three sides by water. In America? The wildly undulating sand dunes adjacent to Highway 1 - on the west side of Fort Ord. Since I was a young boy, every time I've seen that stretch of water and beach, it has screamed for a golf course. Now that my treasure chest is full, I'll do the environmental clean-up and start moving sand around.  




 
« Last Edit: September 14, 2009, 11:35:34 AM by Gib Papazian »

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "..the finest golf course in the world.."
« Reply #21 on: September 12, 2009, 01:03:49 PM »
Thanks for that Gib, it really is a great answer...I can't imagine any great course has been the result of anything less than a single minded committment to its evolution.

Phil_the_Author

Re: "..the finest golf course in the world.."
« Reply #22 on: September 12, 2009, 01:50:22 PM »
This John W. Gates appears to be quite an interesting fellow. A little bit of research has me greatly intrigued about both him and that "Battleground of Titans" as the Washington Park golf course in Chicago was known, the course where John W. Gates came to be called "Bet-a-Million" Gates.

In 1907, it was reported that "According to a New York dispatch millionaire John W. Gates is negotiating for the purchase of the New London Club, of the Connecticut League [minor league baseball]. Two years ago the great financier erected a palatial summer residence at Ocean Beach, a suburb of New London, at a cost of $1,500,000, and last season he became an ardent baseball fan and was a regular attendant at the games played by the New London nine on its home grounds..."

In 1910, in an article in the Sporting Times that spoke about how the great horses of America were being sent overseas, it also reported that, "Japan is introducing our trotter blood... and the other day, it is reported... John W. Gates plunged on Royal Flush... and plucked the bookmakers to the tune of a quarter of a million dollars!"

Gates was evidently very well-known as a greedy financier, gambler and sportsman, being looked down upon in the media and the public in general. When a young man at Yale was accused and then expelled for cheating on an exam so that he could continue playing sports, the American Golfer w stated, "It is all in line with the John W. Gates doctrine. It is all because of the frenzy for winning..."

Yet, by 1933, Gates was actually being quoted by the American Golfer as an educated source for golfing information. In the May, 1933 article titled, "A Battle-Ground Of Titans," T.AS. Ballantyne wrote of his introduction to golf some 30 years prior. Of the Washington Park Golf Course in Chicago, he wrote, "I got my first glimpse of a golf course; a golf course which I was to put down later as the queerest, quaintest most maddening and most famous of all the hundreds which now dot the middle west... Who designed this golf course, John W. Gates, the noted plunger, insisted that "It was designed by the devil to give men who bet on horse races a preview of hell..." 

"Evidently the Washington Park Golf Course was noted for money matches and personalities, yet as Ballantyne wrote in his article, "The pair that lent undying fame to Washington Park were John  W. Gates and John A. Drake. Few knew that "Bet-a-Million" Gates was a more ardent golfer than he was a follower of the horses.

"This robust. jovial titan of finance and of steel, and Drake, owner of a great racing stable and a multi-millionaire, were inseparable companions off the links and implacable foes on it. They were never partners in a foursome; always opponents. Others of those foursomes were mere phantoms; Gates and Drake were the dynamos...

"Both had the build and swing of twenty-handicap men. But anybody who played them on that basis was sure to lose - even a professional. Both were great 'money players.' They were born to concentration by their incessant gambling. They bet on every shot, every putt. That is why they rarely made bad ones. Every shot was the 'money ball'...

"Once on the third green Drake paused before a six-foot putt. 'What's the bet I make it?' he inquired of Gates. 'A thousand you miss,' replied gates, blowing a cloud of smoke from his big cigar. 'You're on,' said Drake and settled down calmly to his putt. No long séance over the ball; no lining it up; a steady, calm action and plunk into the cup...

"This pair had nerves of steel. But never get the impression that they were dour, irascible golfers. They would bellow defiance at each other as they went from shot to shot, joke, chuckle and thoroughly enjoy themselves. I have seen them bet on which quarter the wind was blowing from, the distance of drives, even on whose caddy could run faster. And their bets were not idle, mental bets. I have seen one or the other peel scads of money from a roll at the end of play.

Unfortunately for all in Chicago, and I think golfers everywhere after reading about this course and those who played it, "Washington Park's dramatic life was drawing to a close. In 1905 a hostile legislature banned betting. The sport of Kings was doomed. Golf kept the club alive for a year or so longer but the enormous realty value of the property imposed ruinous taxes. It disbanded about 1907..."

Still, a bit of it lives on, for Ballantyne continues, "But parts of the old course exist as surely as though it had been rolled up and carried away to a museum. When the South Shore Country Club, that paradise of pleasure on Chicago's south side was organized, it purchased the marvelous greens of crumbling Washington Park and re-laid them on its own course..."

I have this itch to want to venture out on those greens one day and play someone for a few bucks...

Gib_Papazian

Re: "..the finest golf course in the world.."
« Reply #23 on: September 12, 2009, 04:22:42 PM »
Jim,

My father and I drove my the Fort Ord site last Wednesday and I commented again how much I wanted to build a golf course there. Always the pragmatist, Dad said "the cleanup from all the military operations would cost millions." Yet, if you think about it objectively, what is the difference between leaving it where it is - a toxic dump from decades of firing range lead and assorted military munitions - and actually doing something affirmative with one of the most beautiful pieces of property imaginable?

The strip of land sits hard by the sea, with an enormous wall of sand dunes separating what looks to have been agriculture land and the beach of Monterey Bay. The dunes themselves are slender and extreme in terms of terrain, so if I owned the land I might top the sandhills and randomly distribute the sand on the east (Highway 1) side of the property.

If let sit for a year in the wind and rain, my sense is the topography would find its own way and nature would provide me enough random movement to blend into my puny architectural ideas. I use the term because as a rookie, I'm smart enough to know 1/2 of what I think is going to be wrong and the other 1/2 impractical. George Crump had Harry Colt and despite my pontifications, I am no George Crump.

However, I would have Neal Meagher (whose job is to keep me on a short leash) and the Great Bahto at my side. Rustic Canyon had a similar threesome and the result is one of my personal Top Five under the category of "Could Play It Every Day Until I Die And Still Have Fun At Every Age And Skill Level." That would be the goal here at Redan Hills Golf Club - along with a well stocked wine cellar and enormous shower heads.

I keep returning to the idea of Redan Hills in my mind since a cocktail or three with Dick Youngscap, his lovely wife and the Redhead. We happened to be paired together by chance at Kapalua Plantation two years ago. I remarked that it was a shame that #4 had been renamed (it was originally identified as "Macdonald" on the scorecard) and Dick pointed out a couple of design features he found particularly interesting. We continued the discussion for a while until right around the 5th green I blurted out "Okay, who are you - like, in real life?"

He had been wondering the same thing and when we finally formally introduced ourselves, it seemed an impossible coincidence. Sadly, he had read some of idle ranting on this site but luckily chose to give me the benefit of the doubt. I was blessed to get the entire Sand HIlls story later that day - with hysterically funny needling from Mrs. Youngscap - in the Plantation lounge above the 18th.

My "takeaway" was that IT CAN BE DONE! A doggedly determined visionary can bring a great golf course to fruition. Yes, C&C designed it, but Dick is the engine that drove the train all the way to its destination. Just like The Button Man in John Strawn's wonderful book "Driving The Green."

We don't need any more artichoke fields in Castroville and if people will beat a path to the middle of Nebraska or Jimmy O's Ballyneal in Colorado, they sure as hell will pull over on the way to Pebble Beach if there is another Dunluce right next to the highway.

As for the Inch Peninsula - for anyone who has come across it - it requires no explanation, only a clever minimalist and a bag of seed.      
« Last Edit: September 12, 2009, 04:27:10 PM by Gib Papazian »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: "..the finest golf course in the world.."
« Reply #24 on: September 13, 2009, 10:58:49 AM »
Gib:

If the reach of the California Coastal Commission extended to Nebraska, the guy you met in Hawaii would have been just another curmudgeon.

But, if you ever manage to get permission to build a golf course in any of those dunes, I hope you'll come up with something more original than another Macdonald redux.