[Lou_Duran]

Ryan,

Please take me to task on anything I actually suggested, but don't attribute arguments to me that I haven't made.  I don't want to replace caddies.  I don't even like carts.  I just don't think I should be required to use or not use either.  My competitive golf experience came to an end when my club of many years decided to institute a mandatory riding policy for weekend and holiday mornings.  I resisted it completely, one year not riding a single round even while playing in 100*+ degree heat in the middle of the day during our four-month long summer season.  It was my choice, and I alone suffered the considerable consequences.  In hindsight, I am not sure that I would do it again.

Melvyn,

Will all due affection and respect, we live in two different universes.  And I thought that we had a somewhat of a common language.  If me riding a cart takes away from your enjoyment, you must be one difficult person to be around.  And if everyone with a bad back, a cold, a mild fever, or any preference, condition, or orientation which you may not approve should forgo playing golf or being around other people, golf and our world are indeed in sorry shape.  I will endeavor from referencing you again.  I am sorry to have it done this time.

Kirk,

Best wishes on your journey, but don't beat yourself up too much.  As a golf instructor told me recently, gaining weight is an evolutionary process wired into us for thousands of years as a way of preparing for periods of famine.  His advice was to moderate, but enjoy myself.  Randy Newman might have written his song about fat people.  BTW, there's a lot of junk science out there about weight and health.  Having said all this, my unpaid personal trainer, Kyle Henderson, is my model.  We should all be as fit as he.       

[rjsimper]

Lou -
Apologies, but you misunderstood. I was referring to Lou in Caddyshack, not you ("If you guys want to get fired. If you want to be replaced by golf carts...keep it up..."

[Adam_F_Collins]

I like the idea of a walking only golf course. It seems to me that a place like Bandon is making an attempt to get back to an 'older model' of golf, and I don't blame them for making strict regulations there to protect it. In many ways, it's like a "golf fantasy land", and so is any other walking-only course, given the pressures of joe public to cater to the cart. But I do think it's good to make allowances for people with disabilities.

There are a lot of golf courses out there. I like to see a few that break the cart norm.

[Tim Pitner]

Not that I need to tell Mr. Kaiser anything, but how many rounds is he losing because of the no-riding policy?  I just met a retired guy going to OR on his honeymoon (he's there now) who is an avid golfer but due to bad legs and old age he can't walk much.  I asked him if he was going to play Bandon and he said he'd love to, but wouldn't risk ruining the rest of his trip if he pushes it.  There should be a way to maintain the spirit of Bandon and the condition of the courses without being so restrictive.  

No offense to anyone in particular, but I say "good"--if you're not fit enough to walk the Bandon courses and you're not disabled, then I don't want you out there.  Other than a few spots on Trails, the walk isn't that difficult.  

I have a very vivid memory of finishing up our morning 18 on BD, trudging off to lunch (this was in the middle of our visit after some 36-hole days) and we saw this older gentlemen (he must have been 75-80 easily and resembled Harvey Penick) in plus fours who we had seen teeing off in the morning literally running to the first tee for his afternoon round.  We saw him again after our afternoon rounds and he was as spry as ever.  Banning carts doesn't necessarily equate to denying opportunities to older people.

[JMEvensky]

Ryan,
I'd suggest your son or nephew.
Good luck otherwise
Edwin Watts is open when it rains,doesn't make you wait all day without getting paid-gives you a schedule
40 bucks cash after waiting 1-4 hours-participating in a 5 hour round-risking lyme's disease-nice enough for 14 year old-good luck with that workforce-and add in a ton of costs and headaches for sufficiently training, motivating, and maintaining that work force

At 40 bucks and as a more accepted practice, I'd guess that 4 hour waits would be a thing of the past. What if the clubhouse guaranteed house wages, like a waitstaff, in the event that earned wages did not exceed a minimum?

Of course, this is all somewhat theoretical. I know it's not happening....

One question I have asked friends but have never gotten an answer to is this, and maybe someone here can help. I am not old enough to have played prior to golf carts being fairly standard.

Today, the average golf cart rate is probably what, 15-20 bucks to a member who rides at his home course.
The average caddy, single bag, is upwards of 60 dollars, and high end places even in the 80-100 range.

This means that the premium for a caddie over a golf cart rental is around quadruple or quintuple the cost.

In the early days of golf carts, or even before golf carts, what was the cost of a caddie relative to a cart?  If a caddie got $5 for a loop, was a cart rental $1?  Or were the prices comparable?  How much would it have cost to get Danny Noonan for a loop, versus the golf carts that Lou threatened to replace the caddies with?

I am old (53) and feel older,but I don't remember the $5 caddie fee.Only Mucci can go that far back.

I think the most important part you're missing is that the prevalence of carts came about primarily as a revenue stream to the clubs.Sadly,most golfers found that riding was easier and the presumed cart "profit" sealed the deal.Caddies have been dying ever since.For the record,I believe that cart "profit" is phantom at a lot of member-owned clubs when everything is factored in fairly.

The above said,what  Chris Cupit wrote earlier is the truth.Unless/until a club is prepared to subsidize a caddie program,it's a non-starter.Few clubs are willing to try because 1) the expense can be significant, and 2) the overwhelming majority of members don't want them.

As to "hiring" caddies and treating them as wait staff,it's just not that easy.Add in taxes and insurance and you might find yourself with a group of employees that are overpaid for just sitting around.Today,staffing costs are hugely important to clubs and are looked at (correctly IMO) with a magnifying glass.As to 14 year-olds,if the child labor laws don't get you the liability insurance will.

From someone who has tried unsuccessfully to build a caddie program,it's a seriously uphill climb.And I don't think my experience is unusual.

[Steve Kline]

I already stated that if I owned a course it would be walking only except for medical conditions. I always try to walk when I play for a number of reasons - I get to enojy the company of my fellow golfers more, I generally play better, I find my ball faster when I hit it offline (since I generally look for it well before where it could be when walking but drive to where I think it is when riding), and I lose a lot of weight in the summer months.

It is my personal opinion that you have to be pretty lazy and out of shape to not walk most courses. I've gone to Scotland/Ireland on several marathon trips. The last two I walked and carried 11 rounds in 6 days and 12 rounds in 7 days. On the trip to Ireland this summer my dad was a few months shy of sixty. He played 12 rounds in 7 days carrying about half of the rounds and using a pull cart for the other half. My dad doesn't exercise except that he virtually always walks when he plays. He just retired to Pinehurst this spring and has lost more than 20 pounds because he's walking playing golf almost every day. If a sixty year old can do it there is little excuse for the rest of us. And, the more you started doing it the better your overall health would be.

I think walking would be more easily accomplished for many if courses had pull carts available for a few dollars. I saw very few of the natives carrying their bags in Ireland. In fact I only saw teenagers doing it.

And after reading this thread I'm going to become more stringent in walking and the courses I choose to give my money too.

[Sean Eidson]

Lou, I am really surprised that a guy like you is demanding that courses should be more accomodating to everybody. Things you learn.

Lou, instead of lamenting that Mike Keiser's policy was precluding you from having more than 18 holes with your friends, did you think about how the lack of care of their body by your friends was precluding you from enjoying their company? Let's face it, the round of golf is just for a weekend, if they were healthy enough to walk 36 holes, you will be able to enjoy their company for next decade or more. Perhaps insted of admonishing Keiser for being inflexible, you should commend him for giving your friends yet another reason to try to keep in shape.

I think Richard’s on to something here…

One of the joys of my trip to Bandon was doing the extra work to prepare myself for 7 rounds in 4 days.  I took longer walks with the Dog, I turned into a 95% walking/carrying golfer, and for the last 2 weeks before the trip, I was walking for 90 minutes up and down the ramps of a parking garage near my house with a 15 pound backpack.  I was getting ~6 miles up and down hills.  In the process, I lost 15 pounds and had strong, if not fresh legs at the end of my wonderful trip.

I might never have done those things if not for the strict walking/carts policy at Bandon.  Thanks Mr. Keiser

[Brent Hutto]

It is my personal opinion that you have to be pretty lazy and out of shape to not walk most courses.

Depends on the "you". If some particular "you" has bad feet or a bad back or two replaced hips or knees about ready to be replaced or any of a hundred other relatively minor "disabilities" it can make walking even a flattish 6,000 yard course an ordeal. Nowadays a lot of courses are 7,000+ yards with 1/4-mile walks between holes and not even close to flat.

Which isn't to say there shouldn't be walking-only courses (although I would tend to prefer medical-necessity carts for those truly in need unless the course just isn't suitable for cart traffic) and I certainly would love to be a member of a play such a place. But let's not make the jump from that preference to saying anyone who doesn't walk the course is a lazy so-and-so.

[Kirk Gill]

I'll agree with what Sean says - walking a round of golf is good for you, and not desperately difficult (in most cases) to do. The desire to walk a round of golf creates in me a desire to get in  better shape and be better able to enjoy the game, for myself and my kids, which is also a good thing. I don't care for being called a "lazy so and so," or being smugly dismissed, but at the same time I would never attempt to say that any course should be compelled to offer me a cart if I'm not up to that walk on a given day.

To all of you - I hope that you are always healthy enough to walk 18 holes of golf. It sucks hard to not be able to, even if it's for a short while.

[Cristian]

Of course I agree that walking is better than riding and of course I agree that the disabled who can, should be allowed to play golf while riding.

However one thing I hate more than Carts and riding is Cart Paths; Any course with concrete cart paths cannot be a fraction of the quality that it would be without. It is hard to understand why so many people do not have a problem with it, I think it is probably because they have become used to the scarred sight. I hope I never will.

Solution for disabled: A small fleet of single rider carts which are less heavy and impose less (visual) damage (tracks) than regular carts.

For everyone who likes Cartball: It's a free world, so by all means...., but I prefer golf.

[Sean_A]

Of course I agree that walking is better than riding and of course I agree that the disabled who can, should be allowed to play golf while riding.

However one thing I hate more than Carts and riding is Cart Paths; Any course with concrete cart paths cannot be a fraction of the quality that it would be without. It is hard to understand why so many people do not have a problem with it, I think it is probably because they have become used to the scarred sight. I hope I never will.

Solution for disabled: A small fleet of single rider carts which are less heavy and impose less (visual) damage (tracks) than regular carts.

For everyone who likes Cartball: It's a free world, so by all means...., but I prefer golf.

Christian

This is my take.  I don't mind if folks want to ride, but don't muck up a course with paths for the convenience of something which has nothing to do with the game. 

Ciao

[Bill_McBride]

Of course I agree that walking is better than riding and of course I agree that the disabled who can, should be allowed to play golf while riding.

However one thing I hate more than Carts and riding is Cart Paths; Any course with concrete cart paths cannot be a fraction of the quality that it would be without. It is hard to understand why so many people do not have a problem with it, I think it is probably because they have become used to the scarred sight. I hope I never will.

Solution for disabled: A small fleet of single rider carts which are less heavy and impose less (visual) damage (tracks) than regular carts.

For everyone who likes Cartball: It's a free world, so by all means...., but I prefer golf.

The poster child for a wonderful course desecrated by continuous concrete cart paths is Pebble Beach.  It's a horrible thing.  For those who walked it 50 years ago, carrying their own bags, it's a truly bad thing.

[Cliff Hamm]

Why is it that older courses often do not use cart paths?  I think of Lawsonia, Triggs (Ross - RI), Shennecosett (Ross - Ct.).  None of these have huge budgets and the courses are all in fine shape.  Why do new courses insist on paths?  I recognize that carts do damage but again these are all in decent shape.  Are paths really necessary?

[Chris Flamion]

I hate cart paths more than most anything else about the current standard fair at a golf course.  They ruin the look of the course and in some cases affect play more than any regular hazard ever could. 

I am all for a strict cart policy and have been since I started playing golf again a couple years ago.  I will never understand why some people my age would ever take a cart.  After all golf is a reason to be outside, not to drive around(that is called a commute).

[Lou_Duran]

Lou -
Apologies, but you misunderstood. I was referring to Lou in Caddyshack, not you ("If you guys want to get fired. If you want to be replaced by golf carts...keep it up..."

No apologies necessary Ryan.  My mistake.  Getting a bit "it's all about me" in my old age I suppose.

I am all for a strict cart policy and have been since I started playing golf again a couple years ago.  I will never understand why some people my age would ever take a cart.  After all golf is a reason to be outside, not to drive around(that is called a commute).

And you're from Alabama?  I don't know how old you are, but I would love to see you walk some of the RTJ Trails courses like the Lake course at Auburn at noon in July.  But to each his own I guess.

Lou, I am really surprised that a guy like you is demanding that courses should be more accomodating to everybody. Things you learn.

Lou, instead of lamenting that Mike Keiser's policy was precluding you from having more than 18 holes with your friends, did you think about how the lack of care of their body by your friends was precluding you from enjoying their company? Let's face it, the round of golf is just for a weekend, if they were healthy enough to walk 36 holes, you will be able to enjoy their company for next decade or more. Perhaps insted of admonishing Keiser for being inflexible, you should commend him for giving your friends yet another reason to try to keep in shape.

I think Richard’s on to something here…

One of the joys of my trip to Bandon was doing the extra work to prepare myself for 7 rounds in 4 days.  I took longer walks with the Dog, I turned into a 95% walking/carrying golfer, and for the last 2 weeks before the trip, I was walking for 90 minutes up and down the ramps of a parking garage near my house with a 15 pound backpack.  I was getting ~6 miles up and down hills.  In the process, I lost 15 pounds and had strong, if not fresh legs at the end of my wonderful trip.

I might never have done those things if not for the strict walking/carts policy at Bandon.  Thanks Mr. Keiser

You agree with Richard?  What do they say about being known for the company you keep?  And here I was going to invite you to play one of Dallas's finest next week!  Have a nice walk.   

[Tom_Doak]

Most of this thread is ridiculous.

For one thing, there are VERY few walking-only golf courses in the USA or indeed the world, so the subject is blown out of proportion.  And most of the walking-only courses I know of make exceptions, though not many.

More importantly, there has been almost no recognition here that unlimited golf carts without paths [everyone's stated preference] may severely impact the playing surface.  If you're on a links with fescue fairways, you just CANNOT have a great playing surface if there are more than a handful of carts a day.  So you get a great playing surface, or you get a cart.  Some operations place the priority on the former.

[Lou_Duran]

Ah, you of large calfs speaketh!  Subject closed.

BTW, olne of the biggest disappointments while visiting Rawls this last spring was the number of people including students riding carts.  I even had a short discussion with couple of young ladies on Tech's golf team who were riding while playing their practice round prior to their conference tournament.  I asked them about it and they said that the coach didn't mind them using carts for "unofficial" practice rounds.

[Tom_Doak]

Lou:

Yeah, the cart issue at The Rawls Course bugs me, too.  It's very flat, of course, so it's pretty easy to walk, and most of the green-to-tee walks are pretty short by design.  And it was our next project after Pacific Dunes, so we were in no-carts mode.  But when I broached the subject all the University people seemed horrified -- if there were no carts, where would golfers put their coolers of beer?  I didn't think they could even do that on campus!

End of story ... Mr. Rawls usually takes a cart, and therefore so can everyone else.

[Shane Wright]

Tom/Lou -

I went to TTU in the late 90's, unfortunately, before the Rawls was finished and haven't been able to get back yet to play it.  But will definitely do so someday.

I can't ever remember a time riding when I played (mostly at shadow hills) but people looked at me like I was an allien when I would walk.  I couldn't ever figure it out...the flattest place maybe in the U.S. and NO ONE walked.  I finally had to start calling out people's mandhood to get them to walk with me.

It was very strange.   They thought I was the weird one.

[Tom Walsh]

Ryan,
I'd suggest your son or nephew.
Good luck otherwise
Edwin Watts is open when it rains,doesn't make you wait all day without getting paid-gives you a schedule
40 bucks cash after waiting 1-4 hours-participating in a 5 hour round-risking lyme's disease-nice enough for 14 year old-good luck with that workforce-and add in a ton of costs and headaches for sufficiently training, motivating, and maintaining that work force

At 40 bucks and as a more accepted practice, I'd guess that 4 hour waits would be a thing of the past. What if the clubhouse guaranteed house wages, like a waitstaff, in the event that earned wages did not exceed a minimum?

Of course, this is all somewhat theoretical. I know it's not happening....

One question I have asked friends but have never gotten an answer to is this, and maybe someone here can help. I am not old enough to have played prior to golf carts being fairly standard.

Today, the average golf cart rate is probably what, 15-20 bucks to a member who rides at his home course.
The average caddy, single bag, is upwards of 60 dollars, and high end places even in the 80-100 range.

This means that the premium for a caddie over a golf cart rental is around quadruple or quintuple the cost.

In the early days of golf carts, or even before golf carts, what was the cost of a caddie relative to a cart?  If a caddie got $5 for a loop, was a cart rental $1?  Or were the prices comparable?  How much would it have cost to get Danny Noonan for a loop, versus the golf carts that Lou threatened to replace the caddies with?

I am old (53) and feel older,but I don't remember the $5 caddie fee.Only Mucci can go that far back.

I think the most important part you're missing is that the prevalence of carts came about primarily as a revenue stream to the clubs.Sadly,most golfers found that riding was easier and the presumed cart "profit" sealed the deal.Caddies have been dying ever since.For the record,I believe that cart "profit" is phantom at a lot of member-owned clubs when everything is factored in fairly.

The above said,what  Chris Cupit wrote earlier is the truth.Unless/until a club is prepared to subsidize a caddie program,it's a non-starter.Few clubs are willing to try because 1) the expense can be significant, and 2) the overwhelming majority of members don't want them.

As to "hiring" caddies and treating them as wait staff,it's just not that easy.Add in taxes and insurance and you might find yourself with a group of employees that are overpaid for just sitting around.Today,staffing costs are hugely important to clubs and are looked at (correctly IMO) with a magnifying glass.As to 14 year-olds,if the child labor laws don't get you the liability insurance will.

From someone who has tried unsuccessfully to build a caddie program,it's a seriously uphill climb.And I don't think my experience is unusual.

I remember the $5 loop. Heck, I remember the $4.50 loop. I'm 51. In St. Louis- Algonquin, St. Louis CC, and Old Warson still have still have pretty strong caddy programs. I think Norwood Hills too. My son caddies a little at Algonquin. I'm not sure what he makes. In the old days I don't think a member was allowed to carry his own bag April through October, but I may misremember.

[Garland Bayley]

Richard,

I love ya man!

Lou, I am really surprised that a guy like you is demanding that courses should be more accomodating to everybody. Things you learn.

Lou, instead of lamenting that Mike Keiser's policy was precluding you from having more than 18 holes with your friends, did you think about how the lack of care of their body by your friends was precluding you from enjoying their company? Let's face it, the round of golf is just for a weekend, if they were healthy enough to walk 36 holes, you will be able to enjoy their company for next decade or more. Perhaps insted of admonishing Keiser for being inflexible, you should commend him for giving your friends yet another reason to try to keep in shape.

Cliff, Bandon asking for a little extra time to accomomdate special circumstances is, to me, evidently fair. You are asking those people to do things that are out of ordinary. It is not unreasonable to ask for little extra time to make sure that those accomodations are taken care of without any hitches.

There are way too many out of shape people claiming disability. I see it all the time at malls where disabled parking spots are occupied full by people who have absolutely no problem walking around the cavernous space inside the mall. I see no problem with Bandon Dunes making sure that you are indeed disabled.

I am really surprised by the inconsistencies in attitudes (except for Melvyn! He may be wrong, but at least he is consistent in his philosophy!!!). Many of you criticize Tiger for his poor behavior and how it hurts the game of golf and then turn around sing the virtues of cart golf when it harms the game of golf FAR MORE than any golf club thrown by Tiger EVER WILL.

Cart golf destroys golf course architecture with its ugly ribbon of concrete and frequently compromises the placement and shape of greens. It steers designers/supers away from firm and fast conditions because drought tolerant grass like fescue do not do well with carts.

If you are a true fan of GCA and golf, I can't see how you can be so supportive of cart golf. Tolerate? Yes. Support? No.

You essentially captured my fellings on the matter. My post was going to go along the lines of:

Why can't you walk?

Why can't you walk?

Why can't you walk?

Isn't it your responsibility to make yourself able to walk if you want to participate in this ancient and honorable game?

Why can't people over 60 walk?

Why can't people over 70 walk?

Why can't people over 80 walk?

I have friends in all these age groups walking.

So why is it that you can't walk?

[Garland Bayley]

...
One certain medical fact is that when the temperature is above 90 degrees, "calorically challenged" individuals definitely get more knee and back pain which is magically cured by a cart

That is pure bull! This calorically challenged individual has the least knee and back pain when the temperature is above 90 degrees. Maybe if your calorically challenged sample would get off their duffs, they would give valid data!

[Garland Bayley]

Of course I agree that walking is better than riding and of course I agree that the disabled who can, should be allowed to play golf while riding.

However one thing I hate more than Carts and riding is Cart Paths; Any course with concrete cart paths cannot be a fraction of the quality that it would be without. It is hard to understand why so many people do not have a problem with it, I think it is probably because they have become used to the scarred sight. I hope I never will.

Solution for disabled: A small fleet of single rider carts which are less heavy and impose less (visual) damage (tracks) than regular carts.

For everyone who likes Cartball: It's a free world, so by all means...., but I prefer golf.

The poster child for a wonderful course desecrated by continuous concrete cart paths is Pebble Beach.  It's a horrible thing.  For those who walked it 50 years ago, carrying their own bags, it's a truly bad thing.

Tom Doak wanted to see Astoria CC until he saw pictures of the cart paths.

[Mike_Duffy]

 >:(Golf carts are an abomination. I hate them with an intensity. My philosophy is this: If the rule of the golf club is inflexible in "no walking-carts only", then I don't play.

I have been playing golf for 53 years and walked every course that I have played.

In some of the countries that I have lived, the courses are happy for you to walk as long as you pay the cart fee. Hence the caddy drives the cart and I walk. Sound crazy? At least I get to walk.

To those of you who can't contemplate a round of golf without a cart, I urge you  to get off your fat lazy arses and play the game as it is meant to be played - walking, and occasionally remember to smell the roses along the way!!

[Steve Kline]

It is my personal opinion that you have to be pretty lazy and out of shape to not walk most courses.

Depends on the "you". If some particular "you" has bad feet or a bad back or two replaced hips or knees about ready to be replaced or any of a hundred other relatively minor "disabilities" it can make walking even a flattish 6,000 yard course an ordeal. Nowadays a lot of courses are 7,000+ yards with 1/4-mile walks between holes and not even close to flat.

Which isn't to say there shouldn't be walking-only courses (although I would tend to prefer medical-necessity carts for those truly in need unless the course just isn't suitable for cart traffic) and I certainly would love to be a member of a play such a place. But let's not make the jump from that preference to saying anyone who doesn't walk the course is a lazy so-and-so.

On the my third Scotland trip and friend in his mid fifties was going with us for a once in a life time opportunity. Six months before the trip his hip really started bothering him. The doctor gave him all kinds of medications and therapies but nothing helped much. He walked 11 rounds in 7 days with a caddy or pull cart. We ground his hip to a pulp and he had hip replacement surgery about a month later. He continues to walk almost every round he plays and is always walking on breaks at work.

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