Dr Mac Questions

[Sean_A]

Why is it that Dr Mac seems to get "all the credit" with some courses when it is clear he had partners (not associates) at least from 1928 and that at least Maxwell was in the dirt with him?

Did Dr Mac have partners in Oz?  If so, should Russell get equal credit for some work?

Which courses did Hunter get directly involved with Dr Mac?  So much so, that like U of M, Crystal Downs and to some degree Ohio St, that separating the work of the two is impossible - like a proper partnership?  

Other than the three mentioned above and Melrose, are there any other courses in which Maxwell and Dr Mac worked closely together?

I realize that Dr Mac died in 1934, but when did the partnership with Hunter and Maxwell end?  It would seem that Dr Mac went off into another (unofficial?) partnership with B Jones for Augusta.  

Why does B Jones often get co-billing with Dr Mac for August?  Did Jones actually do more work on the project than either Hunter or Maxwell did on theirs?

If Dr Mac was such a bear bug, how did he convince so many top quality guys to go in with him?

Ciao



 

[Tom MacWood]

Thats good question. It is my impression Crystal Downs and Michigan are more Maxwell courses than AM courses. OSU was an AM design that Maxwell was briefly involved with after AM's death. When you have a partnership (Mackenzie & Maxwell; Colt & Alison; Thompson & Jones) often times the senior, more dominant, more famous partner is given the credit. That is often the case with Alison's courses in the US. Many Clubs, and many participants on this site, refer to Alison's courses as Colt courses.

[David Stamm]

Sean, Sean Tully can shed some more light on this, but as far as I know, Hunter worked with MacK on most of his California courses, including Meadow Club, CPC, Valley Club and Sharp Park. Valley Club is where I think Hunter had his biggest role, and also in a sense ended their run together. Hunter sort of "came out of retirement" to help out with the Sharp Park project from what I've read.


I think Russell does get credit, at least here. I know those in the know in Australia certainly give Russell credit for his efforts. As far as an official, formal partnership, if there was one, I don't recall.


I'm not sure the realtionship with Jones can be called a partnership since they did all of one course together and Jones had never built a course himself before. I think Jones gets equal billing for the obvious reasons, he was Jones, he was part of the consortium and it was his dream. I think he gave generalities of what he wanted, but MacK was the architect. Afterall, why else would Jones be looking for an architect in the first place to build his "homage to St Andrews"?


As Tom D has stated before many times, there is a common thread throughout all these realtionships, and that is MacKenzie. Is it mere coincidence that these people came along with special talents needed for the job and MacK was able to just walk away and a world class born sprang out of the ground? Anything's possible, but highly unlikely. MacK's ability to quickly find the person who could carry out the task at hand is a talent in of itself. How may Ross courses, for example, where they have been labeled as "mailing it in" and having never visiting the site turned out mediocre because Ross had no idea who it was that was implementing his design? Quite a few, from what I understand.


Perhaps all the top quality guys that you mention became such because of the working relationship that they enjoyed with MacK. In other words, he taugtht them a thing or two. In addition, I think MacKenzie was very charismatic and knew how to take control of a situation. People for the most part seemed to be drawn to him. And he was very experienced by this time after leaving the UK, an experience I'm pretty sure that Maxwell and Hunter did not quite have yet when meeting him.

[Mark Bourgeois]

I would add the concept of intellectual property, which seems to get short shrift when we discuss who "designed" many old courses.

[Ed Oden]

How may Ross courses, for example, where they have been labeled as "mailing it in" and having never visiting the site turned out mediocre because Ross had no idea who it was that was implementing his design? Quite a few, from what I understand.

David, I know this is somewhat tangential to your post, but in my opinion the exact opposite is really more accurate.  It is amazing how FEW Ross designs turned out mediocre despite "mailing it in". 

Ed

[Rich Goodale]

There is a "great man" bias amongst many observers of the past, and as a result the Mackenzies, Macdonalds, and Hahns of the world tend to be over-praised vis a vis the Russells, Raynors and Meitners.

[Neil_Crafter]

Alex Russell (first name pronounced "Alec") went into partnership with Mackenzie in November 1926, and the firm Mackenzie & Russell was started up. By around 1930 or so I think Russell had stopped using the partnership name. The credit for their work in Australia tends to naturally go to Mackenzie, as the famous overseas architect, while Russell's role tends to be downplayed. In the case of Royal Melbourne West, you need to include the name of their head greenkeeper Mick Morcom who built the course with Russell after Mackenzie's departure from Australia. These two must have worked closely together and I'm sure Morcom had an influence on design decisions.

In America, you have the case of Mackenzie aligning himself with Hunter, Maxwell and then Chandler Egan, all talented architects in their own right. In some of Maxwell's projects, Mackenzie was brought in to give some overseas (Scottish) credibility, eg Melrose and Nichols Hills (later Oklahoma City G&CC). Alignment with Hunter gave Mackenzie entree into the California golfing scene and the Morses of that world. I suspect it was all mutually beneficial.

David S is quite right I think, Mac had an eye for a good partner. And a way of bringing them along with him, but in Hunter's case it is clear from reading The Links, published prior to them entering their partnership that they both viewed GCA along very similar lines. Certainly that would have been the case with Russell as well.

As to Sean's questions about timing, it is quite difficult to know precisely when one partnership with Hunter ended and another with Egan started. I don't think these two overlapped at all, but his partnership with Maxwell was a geographical one (east of the Rockies) and this partnership certainly overlapped the Hunter partnership, but possibly not Egan, I'd need to check that. In the early 30s Mackenzie was working on projects like Bayside in NY without a partner, but closely allied to Wendell Miller his construction engineer there, and at Augusta and Palmetto.

I think it would be an interesting exercise to try and do a "partnership" map across a timeline to try and get a sense of what was happening. Not necessarily volunteering to do one mind you!

[Mark Bourgeois]

It will take no more than a Saturday morning for a researcher of your caliber/re.

Post it tonight Neil and I will be more than happy to contribute a review!

[Neil_Crafter]

what would take me a morning to do, a researcher of your calibre could do in an hour!
Don't hold your breath waiting for it as this Sat morning I have to finish up some actual paying work!

[Mark Bourgeois]

I say we make Rich do it as punishment for his ridiculous implied assertion.  Nuclear fission is a man's game, and a great man's game at that.  Leo Szilard told me that in the lobby of the Metropole.

[Adam Clayman]

Why is it that Dr Mac seems to get "all the credit" with some courses when it is clear he had partners (not associates) at least from 1928 and that at least Maxwell was in the dirt with him?
 

Isn't that true with every architect? Even today? One or two get their name on the door and in the long run "all the credit"

 It requires a team to build great golf.

[Tom_Doak]

Adam:

Yes, it requires a team to build great golf courses.

But somebody's got to put together the team.  And it is just possible that the same guy could have put together a different team and STILL built the same great courses.  That's why the one guy tends to get most of the credit.  That, and because it's impossible to tell which of the others was really the MVP.

I suspect it was really the same way for Ross as for MacKenzie -- there were certain guys who were better at building greens than others, but some of their names are lost to history.

[TEPaul]

Doctor Mac seems like he may've been a pretty proprietary guy. I have a letter from either Russell Oakley or Charles Piper to Hugh or Alan Wilson in which it was mentioned that Dr Mac stopped in to see them at the US Dept of Agriculture. The subject of who invented undulating (highly contoured) greens on flat sites came up and either Piper or Oakley mentioned that some guy claimed he came up with that invention in America and Dr. Mac took strong exception to that claiming that HE had come up with that concept and invention!!

[Neil_Crafter]

TE
Do you have a date when Dr Mac visited the USDA? Would love to have it, or at least a month and a year to add to our Mackenzie Timeline. Thanks
Neil

[Adam Clayman]

Tom. Sorry if it was cryptic. That was my point. The name gets it all. Cedit and blame. I believe its historically important for geeks like us to know some of the key players on the team the way we show reverence to Maxwell and Raynor on specific projects.

[David Stamm]

As to Sean's questions about timing, it is quite difficult to know precisely when one partnership with Hunter ended and another with Egan started. I don't think these two overlapped at all, but his partnership with Maxwell was a geographical one (east of the Rockies) and this partnership certainly overlapped the Hunter partnership, but possibly not Egan, I'd need to check that. In the early 30s Mackenzie was working on projects like Bayside in NY without a partner, but closely allied to Wendell Miller his construction engineer there, and at Augusta and Palmetto.

I think it would be an interesting exercise to try and do a "partnership" map across a timeline to try and get a sense of what was happening. Not necessarily volunteering to do one mind you!

Neil, did not Hunter AND Egan work together at Pebble Beach? I'll check as well, but I think they almost certainly overlapped.


This is by no means meant as a slap at any of the capable associates that MacKenzie surrounded himself with, but I think a question that needs to debated is why men like Hunter, Egan and Maxwell felt like they needed MacKenzie? As Neil pointed out, did not Hunter write what MacKenzie had described as the best book written on the subject of golf architecture? Had not Egan and Maxwell designed courses themselves? These men apparently felt either they couldn't advance their ambitions in this field on their own and two heads were better than one, or, they recognized the talent that MacK had and wanted to hitch their wagons to him.

[Neil_Crafter]

David
yes, Hunter, Egan and Lapham worked as a trio at pebble Beach in readiness for the 1929 US Amateur. On another thread it has been suggested that Mackenzie may have been "in the wings" orchestrating this work, but I'm not too sure there is any evidence t support this. I just don't think that Mac's partnership with Hunter overlapped his partnership with Egan. I think Hunter decided to effectively "retire" and Mac subsequently decided to take on Egan as his partner.

Why did these guys think they needed Mackenzie? I think you answered it pretty well.

[Neil_Crafter]

David
here is an article from the April 1929 issue of Fairway magazine announcing the commencement of the Mackenzie - Egan partnership, upon the retirement of Hunter. So I think this article confirms the view that these two partnerships did not overlap.
cheers Neil

[Sean_A]

Yes, it makes sense today and yesteryear that the famous guy guy gets the credit, hence the reason that B Jones was elevated to equal (or nearly) status with Dr Mac at Augusta.  I can also understand how Hunter and Egan were also not seen as equal in the partnership - especially Hunter as it isn't my impression that he was ever an architect in the sense of hitting the trail and making a living at it.  In other words, he didn't mind hiding behind the bushel.  However, it seems to me that Maxwell was a different kettle of fish as he was an architect making a living at it and with a reputation even if he did have other business interests for a spell.  He did need gigs so he could get more gigs.  Though in the end, Maxwell may not have had anymore to do with his shared projects as the others did on theirs - I don't know, but, it seems to me that the courses Maxwell was involved with do have his print on them whereas I don't get that sense about the others, at least not openly.

Tommy Mac

Reading Chris' book, I get the impression that Maxwell was much more involved than "briefly" with OSU.  It isn't clear to me that Dr Mac ever finished the plans which begs the question of who did.  Also, the books reads as if the majority of the course was completed before Maxwell left the job, apparently feeling that there were too many chiefs.  If you have info that helps clears things up please post it as it would be most interesting.  I am very intrigued by the MacKMax partnership in general.

Do you know of more MackMax courses?

Finally, the last line of that article really hits me.  I know I brought this up before, but "over three hundred golf courses"?  I know Neil has been compiling a list, but can it be true that Dr Mac is the proper archie of record for over 300 courses?  I find this claim astounding for a career that lasted 30 years tops.  That is 10 a year on average which sounds like a complete fabrication when we consider the depression, WWI, a slow start to his career and all the travel.  I we talking about courses that Dr Mac changed bits n bobs here rather than the proper archie of record?


Ciao  

[Neil_Crafter]

Sean
In one advert we know of he was even claiming 400 courses!
I suspect to get anywhere close to these sort of numbers he must have counted every single course he was ever contacted by regardless of how much work he did for them. I don't have an exact count of the courses he was involved in, both new and remodelling, but it is only around half the above figure if I recall. Either there are quite a few courses he advised that we don't know of, or he was guilty of telling promotional "porky pies".

[Tom MacWood]

I have read his book. Here is a link to my essay on the history of Ohio State GC (which I believe is the source for Chris's info).

http://golfclubatlas.com/in-my-opinion/ohio-state-golf

Mackenzie designed the course in 1929. Maxwell was brought in 1935 to oversee construction. Unfortunately that didn't last long (a couple of months) because of a personality conflict with non-golfing ROTC colonel who was looking over the project for the AD. Maxwell was let go and the construction of the course was overseen by an Agronomy professor (McClure) and the future greenkeeper of the course (McCoy) , who had been involved in the construction of couple of other AM courses.

They had Mackenzie's plan for the two courses (its hanging in the clubhouse), but they only had some of AM's individual green plans. I think it is possible that Maxwell completed the green plans. Its also possible the Agronomy professor finished the green plans. He was involved at ANGC. If I remember correctly I believe I speculated the greens were probably a combination of the three men (Mackenzie, Maxwell, and McClure - 3M). The greens have a good bit of undulation.

[David Stamm]

Another question for us. Why did AM feel he needed to form partnerships with these men? Could it be that MacK wanted access to addtional contacts/clients through these men? It's not as if MacK wasn't capable of doing these projects on his own. Quite the contrary, he probably was more experienced when he arrived here in California than all the others combined. 

[Phil_the_Author]

Sean,

These guys were far busier than we tend to give them credit for. You stated, "Finally, the last line of that article really hits me.  I know I brought this up before, but "over three hundred golf courses"?  I know Neil has been compiling a list, but can it be true that Dr Mac is the proper archie of record for over 300 courses?  I find this claim astounding for a career that lasted 30 years tops.  That is 10 a year on average which sounds like a complete fabrication when we consider the depression, WWI, a slow start to his career and all the travel...."

Now I can't speak for Mackenzie, but in 1920 a Tilly advertisement referenced "SOME work" that he was woprking on and then named 8 new course construiction which included 2 that were 36 holes and 11 course reconstructions. I have confirmed everyone of them and the dates and have found several others as well that he worked on in that year to push the number well into the 20s.

They were located in Pennsylvania, Connecticutt, New York, New Jersey, Oklahoma, Tennessee, Texas and California.

These guys really did a lot of work...

[Peter Pallotta]

I would add the concept of intellectual property, which seems to get short shrift when we discuss who "designed" many old courses.

Mark - would you mind expanding on this please. (I won't ask for more of what Szilard told you at the Metropole, or why you were there in the first place).

Are there Mackenzie type sites, one that lend themselves to a MacKenzie type vision? Does a stong-willed architect "stamp" his vision on a possible course even before, but certainly by, the routing stage? Is everything else just bells and whistles?

Peter

[BCrosby]

I have never understood why Bobby Jones is given co-design credit for ANGC.

Bob