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Jonathan Cummings

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Re: what are the best courses in maryland and virginia
« Reply #25 on: September 04, 2009, 09:05:35 AM »
TPC Potomac needs to be considered when making any DC area best-of list.  JC

Adam_Messix

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Re: what are the best courses in maryland and virginia
« Reply #26 on: September 04, 2009, 09:27:41 AM »
Jay--

Good catch on Primland.....It's so far south that I would almost consider it in NC.  Definitely worth the effort to see. 

JESII

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Re: what are the best courses in maryland and virginia
« Reply #27 on: September 04, 2009, 09:30:05 AM »
I would want to play Royal New Kent again before just about anything else...although Kinoch must be really good, and Five farms as well.

I have heard Lowes Island (?) is really good, any verdicts here?

Cabell Ackerly

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Re: what are the best courses in maryland and virginia
« Reply #28 on: September 04, 2009, 09:51:45 AM »
Living in Virginia and having played most of the courses within the commonwealth, I feel compelled to comment on some of the courses mentioned so far.

Kinloch - great club, world class service, superb conditions (though rarely firm) but is the architecture really all that?
Royal New Kent - some wonderful holes, but unwalkable with a terrible finish
Mattaponi Springs - horrible, repetitive green complexes
Riverfront - decent, but if it didn't have Doak's name on it, no one would even consider it


In addition to the Cascades, the western part of the state has a number of gems that get very little attention, including Farmington, Fincastle and Boonsboro. In Richmond, CCV - James River and Hermitage CC's Manakin Course are good, but not great. There is really nothing in the Hampton Roads/Virginia beach area that is worth noting.

I have not played Creighton Farms, Primland, Olde Farm or the Virginian.

Peter Pallotta

Re: what are the best courses in maryland and virginia
« Reply #29 on: September 04, 2009, 09:54:17 AM »
Jim - you mentioned how much you like RNK several times, and I'm curious: in terms of presenting a challenge to getting the ball in the hole in the fewest possible strokes, how does RNK stack up against some of the courses you play more regularly, and how would you describe the style/nature of that challenge

Thanks - don't know a thing about Mike Strantz's courses, and this aspect is what I'm interested in knowing

Peter

Roger Wolfe

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Re: what are the best courses in maryland and virginia
« Reply #30 on: September 04, 2009, 09:54:48 AM »
Big questions...

Are you looking for private or public??
Do they need to be near the Potomac??

If you are looking for public within an hour of the Potomac... Bulle Rock (MD) and Stonewall (VA)... not
sure you can do much better.

Roger Wolfe

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Re: what are the best courses in maryland and virginia
« Reply #31 on: September 04, 2009, 09:56:26 AM »
If you don't mind driving a few hours...  Lighthouse Sound (MD) and Mattaponi Springs (VA)

Shawn Arlia

Re: what are the best courses in maryland and virginia
« Reply #32 on: September 04, 2009, 10:19:52 AM »
Went on a golf trip down that way a few years ago where we played several public courses. Played Musket Ridge, Whiskey Creek, Royal New Kent, and Golf Club at Brickshire. Without a doubt, the best of the bunch was RNK. Alot of really cool shots there. My only dislike was driving hundreds of yards to get to the next hole. I almost liked Whiskey Creek as much as RNK. An excellent collection of par fives.

JESII

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Re: what are the best courses in maryland and virginia
« Reply #33 on: September 04, 2009, 10:39:06 AM »
Peter,

RNK blew me away the first couple of times I played it...so much so that I am blind to the consensus on here (as repeated by Cabell) that the finish is horrid.

I think what the course does for/to me is demands a committment to the decision. It offers several scenarios for getting the ball in the hole as quick as possible, all of which may work out equally over the long run but you have to decide which one is best today...AND, these decisions are more varied than any other course I can think of having played.

Most every one of my other favorite courses offer a challenge more in hitting the shot than in choosing which one to hit...not that they don't offer choices, just that they are clearer and the nuts of the decision only shows up after I've hit the ball well or poorly.

#10 at Shinnecock is about 400 yards with a tremendous downslope (probably 80 feet) about 240 from the tee down into a valley from which the green sits up above by 30 or 40 feet. On the tee there are two distinct options, lay up a bit short of the crest for a nice view of the green or try to hit it over the crest to get it to run to the bottom for a much shorter approach. The challenge of the shorter approach is that it will likely still be on a very modest downslope hitting up 30 or 40 feet from the touchy distance of about 80 yards. Playing conditions of the day (wind direction, green and fairway firmness) will dictate most of what I need to know, and the state of my game will tell me the rest. After that I will hit a good or a bad shot but I pretty well know the problems, they are distinct.

#8 at Royal New Kent is comparable yardage, maybe a hair shorter and the key feature is a large dune which hides the green. The hole is a sharp dogleg right but as a final twist, the green is set behind a Dune on the left. If you were putting the ball it would be a double dogleg. Maybe some can repost a picture from the yardage book or other aerial.

The decisions seem to be; 220 or so off the tee into a narrow sliver of fairway to leave some view of the green and about 160 in, 240 or 250 off the tee into the widest part of the fairway that offers basically no view of the green and about 150 in, or Driver over the corner of some bunkers and other garbage that will leave just a short wedge in that is basically totally blind with a big dune right in front.

At Shinnecock, outside variables seem to give me the answer. At Royal New Kent, the decision seems 100% based on my judgement of being able to hit the sequence of shots that must follow the first one.

Overall, I prefer Shinnecock, and #10 is about my favorite hole there, but there is a real difference in the process for me.

It very well may have to do with the fact that my rounds at RNK were all in a tournament or the day or two before in preparation and that there was never really much in the way of "conditions" to deal with. Very little wind, pretty soft greens etc...








Found this from some time ago...



The 8th is a medium length par 4.  The tee shot tempts you to hit driver, but a shot hit too far will leave a blind 2nd.  Here is the view from the fairway for those who foolishly hit driver.




Peter Pallotta

Re: what are the best courses in maryland and virginia
« Reply #34 on: September 04, 2009, 11:05:48 AM »
Jim - thanks very much for that. It's really interesting to wonder how much of what you experienced Mike Strantz "intended" -- now, don't get me wrong, in one sense I imagine that he intended and designed ALL of it; but on the other hand, I can't imagine that he designed RNK primarily for tournament play or tournament-level golfers, but instead for the average recreational golfer. And yet  regardless, the course presented an excellent golfer in 'tournament mode' with those kind and number of choices, and that seems to me very telling about some underlying/fundamental design principle of Mike's.   

Thanks again
Peter

Mark Bourgeois

Re: what are the best courses in maryland and virginia
« Reply #35 on: September 04, 2009, 11:10:38 AM »

I have heard Lowes Island (?) is really good, any verdicts here?

You mean Trump National?

John Foley

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Re: what are the best courses in maryland and virginia
« Reply #36 on: September 04, 2009, 11:13:33 AM »
I will add the love for RNK here. That front 9 is fantastic. However the housing going up on the back is just a killer. The golf is still good, but it takes away from the experioance a tremendous amount

Jim Sullivan - great analysis on #8. From the tee driver looked like the right call, but it wasn't!!
Integrity in the moment of choice

Roger Wolfe

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Re: what are the best courses in maryland and virginia
« Reply #37 on: September 04, 2009, 11:24:33 AM »
RNK is the ultimate "love it or hate it" golf course.  I love it... my good friend despises it.
It is, however, a nice alternative to most of your typical "Virginia" courses that all seem
to blend together (Kingsmill, Golden Horseshoe).  Its a shame they are building houses
on the back nine.  It used to be cool to stand on 15 tee and look down on the horse
track.

Matt_Ward

Re: what are the best courses in maryland and virginia
« Reply #38 on: September 04, 2009, 11:25:51 AM »
What's interesting to note about MD and VA is how the overall depth of public courses has made great strides over the last 25 years. I can remember playing such courses right out of college and they were really piss poor on a consistent basis. To give one an example you can take a State like Pennsy and analyze their depth of public courses and they likely are behind either MD or VA in terms of total depth. No doubt on the private side the Keystone State still has the upper hand but even on the private front the two states being discussed on this thread have a good deal more to offer than many might imagine. Be curious to know from those who have played it how Ballyhack stacks up against the others already mentioned.


Rob_Waldron

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Re: what are the best courses in maryland and virginia
« Reply #39 on: September 04, 2009, 01:00:23 PM »
The best VA course that gets little respect is Spring Creek. Unfortunately is it remotely located about 1/2 hour from Charlottesville and 45 minutes from Richmond. The course is outstanding and can be extremely challenging from the back tees. In fact the UVA golf team uses it for qualifying as opposed to their own Birdwood course.

Mark Pritchett

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Re: what are the best courses in maryland and virginia
« Reply #40 on: September 04, 2009, 01:46:33 PM »
I have a couple of friends who work at Lowes Island and insist the courses are pretty good.  They like the Fazio better, but say the Hills course is solid as well.

Also from the pictures I have seen Ballyhack might be on its way to top tier status. 


Jay Flemma

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Re: what are the best courses in maryland and virginia
« Reply #41 on: September 04, 2009, 04:18:29 PM »
Big questions...

Are you looking for private or public??
Do they need to be near the Potomac??

If you are looking for public within an hour of the Potomac... Bulle Rock (MD) and Stonewall (VA)... not
sure you can do much better.



While I love Bulle, I hated stonewall.  It's house golf.  The first three holes play through people's yards, then you get to the river, then you play through more houses...then back to the river.  plus is was waaaaaaay overpriced.  $110!  I also hated the last 11 holes of lighthouse sound...way to narrow and penal.  It reminded me of an average at best course in syracuse called Erie Village where you had to walk down the holes single file.  I think LS is just pretty...all sizzle, but no steak.

Yes, the architecture at Kinloch is all that...really good.  center line hazards, innovative bunkering, good greens, nice terrain for golf, easy walk.

I should have remembered 4 streams.  I've had a nice invitation to see that one fror some time with my buddy steve czaban.  Obe of these days.

I'll see westfields and UMD soon...hopefully inniscrone on the way.

The guys playing will all be plus handicaps.  They hate anything gettig in the way of 3s and 4s on the card, so the minute I mentioned RNK, they had a knee jerk reaction. 
« Last Edit: September 04, 2009, 04:22:34 PM by Jay Flemma »
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Carl Nichols

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Re: what are the best courses in maryland and virginia
« Reply #42 on: September 04, 2009, 04:27:26 PM »
While I love Bulle, I hated stonewall.  It's house golf.  The first three holes play through people's yards, then you get to the river, then you play through more houses...then back to the river.  

Jay:
That was a lake (Lake Manassas).

Martin Toal

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Re: what are the best courses in maryland and virginia
« Reply #43 on: September 04, 2009, 05:02:51 PM »
I have played precisely 2 golf courses in these states (well, I am from the UK) - Bulle Rock and Renditions. One was considerably better than the other in almost every respect. I probably don't have to point out which one.

Jay Flemma

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Re: what are the best courses in maryland and virginia
« Reply #44 on: September 04, 2009, 06:06:55 PM »
I played Canyon Ridge earlier this year.  Solid course and very enjoyable, but not in the discussion of the Top Courses in the State, IMO.  For me right now in Virginia of the courses I have played.  I would say:

1. Cascades
2. Royal New Kent
3. Golden Horseshoe (Gold)

...and then several other course fall into the solid category... Kingsmill (River and Woods), Riverfront, Canyon Ridge, VA Tech, Golden Horseshoe Green, Stonehouse, etc....I am playing Primland in two weeks on my way down to the WVU-Auburn football game.

Only played two courses in Maryland.  Played P.B. Dye on the same trip this year as Canyon Ridge.  Enjoyed Canyon Ridge more...

Perhaps might you mean Cannon ridge?
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

mike_beene

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Re: what are the best courses in maryland and virginia
« Reply #45 on: September 04, 2009, 09:54:35 PM »
Over off Chain Bridge road(close to Lawyers Road)is a club that I played some years ago.Cant think of name but a good routing and if someone redid some bland bunkering and greens it could be really good.Cant think of the name.

Eric Smith

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Re: what are the best courses in maryland and virginia
« Reply #46 on: September 04, 2009, 10:08:20 PM »
I think many people would mention the Old Farm and possibly the Virginian for Virginia...certainly they are the best in the far southwestern portion!

Bart

Jay,

Was The Olde Farm in the conversation at the Patomac Cup? If not it should've been!

Here's one of Scott Burrough's pics of the short par 4 5th.


Tim Gavrich

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Re: what are the best courses in maryland and virginia
« Reply #47 on: September 05, 2009, 05:25:25 PM »
On the public side, what about Independence GC outside of Richmond?  It's a public Tom Fazio course that houses the VSGA headquarters.  I played in an AJGA event there a few summers ago and enjoyed it.

I played in my first college tournament at Hunting Hawk in Glen Allen, VA.  It's a Bill Love-designed course that I found to be pretty good with the exception of one awkward hole, the 7th.
Senior Writer, GolfPass

Carl Rogers

Re: what are the best courses in maryland and virginia
« Reply #48 on: September 06, 2009, 10:05:15 AM »

...
Riverfront - decent, but if it didn't have Doak's name on it, no one would even consider it
...


I live 10 minutes from Riverfront and play there a lot.  I have not had the opportunity to travel the world to play golf.  However, if some of you would use this thread as an excuse to take the trip to Suffolk, you might be more than surprised by the course.  Tom & Group were not having a bad day when this course was designed and built.

Dave Givnish

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Re: what are the best courses in maryland and virginia
« Reply #49 on: September 07, 2009, 09:44:27 AM »
I second the comments on Spring Creek, and agree that RTJ should be up in top few in VA. 

Farmington North/South gets my "homer" vote though.  If you look at the scorecard, par 70 6600 yards won't strike much fear into good players.  The course requires some thought off the tee (you sure you want to hit that driver?), and the greens will drive you crazy.  There is a lot of talent playing in the Kenridge Invitational each year, and the winning scores aren't much below par.