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Dónal Ó Ceallaigh

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Rosapenna Old Course: How much of Old Tom's layout exists?
« on: September 02, 2009, 09:44:51 AM »
This question has been puzzling me for years. When I first played Rosapenna in the mid-80s, I saw a few old photographs on the wall in the present hotel. One was of John Ball putting on "Trabeg" green and a similar on of someone putting on the "Target" green. It was quite clear from the John Ball photograph that the "Trabeg" green lay in front of the present hotel, where some tennis courts and a putting green were situated. Trabeg is the Irish for small beach, and this the beach close to where the caravan park is situated. There exist a postcard of JH Taylor putting on the "Home" green which was situated in front of the old Rosapenna Hotel (the one that burned down in 1962).

Reading the Rosapenna Golf Links website would lead you to believe that the course hasn't changed since Old Tom's layout, but as previous posts by Paul Turner (re Rosapenna 1910 Article) and Melvyn Hunter Morrow prove, it has indeed changed. I was fortunate enough only last week to find a copy of the Vardon layout of 1906 and in my opinion, the current old course at Rosapenna is very different to the 1906 layout. I found the 1906 layout in Edgar S. Shrubsole's 1908 book "Picturesque Donegal: Its Mountains, Rivers, and Lakes". The only info I have of the 1893 layout is the hole details that Melvyn posted.

I hope to walk the course and trace the Vardon (1906) layout, but what would be great is if I could get my hands on the 1893 layout.

Melvyn: could you tell me where you got the hole details for the 1893 layout? Do you have a map of the course.

Paul: Could you post a link to the Golf illustrated Article from 6th May 1910? The link (to photobucket) that you posted originally, does not work anymore.

It's very difficult to find information on Braid's contribution, but one thing is for sure, the present course is totally different to Vardon's layout, and I'd assume that it's also different to Old Tom's. Vardon's layout didn't venture very far into the "valley" area, probably only as far as half way up the old 3rd fairway (present 11th). The terrain may have been too wild at that time. I have a hunch that Old Tom's layout didn't even go into the "valley" as hole names such as "Abbey" and "Carrigart" imply that the layout went over the gentler gound on or close to where the present Strand course is. But, as I said, this is only a hunch.

Dónal.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2011, 03:49:52 AM by Donal OCeallaigh »

Paul_Turner

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Re: Rosapenna Old Course: How much of Old Tom's layout exists?
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2009, 01:59:44 PM »


Donal

If you can find out what Colt did there, I'd be much obliged.
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Rosapenna Old Course: How much of Old Tom's layout exists?
« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2009, 05:49:20 PM »
Donal

OTM course opened in 15.04.1893. Some slight modifications by Brown (professional from Royal Dublin) in 1895. The 1897 course changes left the first 10 holes more or less unchanged but the 11-18 had been alter twice.

By the time of 1908 the course had done the usual and reversed itself, but again many of the early lower numbered (original 1-8) Greens seem to have survived with their fairways, believe they are the 11-18 shown on the 1908 course. There may be another couple of Greens as well.

More changes have taken place over the years, but I have not looked into it.

Check your e-mail for more information plus the three maps of the course 1893, 1897 & 1908.

Melvyn
« Last Edit: September 02, 2009, 05:54:53 PM by Melvyn Hunter Morrow »

Brad Tufts

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Re: Rosapenna Old Course: How much of Old Tom's layout exists?
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2009, 08:26:41 PM »
I think I have posted this before, but I believe there is an informative course layout map currently just inside the front door of the hotel.

I think someone called the hotel (maybe Paul T.?) and asked them about it and they replied that they had no idea what he was talking about, which is unfathomable to my memory of the map.

I may be overestimating the information on the map I saw, but I could have sworn there was some layout evolution on there.

If ever wanting to get to those golf places that seem to be "at the end of the earth" then Rosapenna is a great take!
So I jump ship in Hong Kong....

Tom MacWood

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Re: Rosapenna Old Course: How much of Old Tom's layout exists?
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2009, 09:12:40 PM »
Donal

OTM course opened in 15.04.1893. Some slight modifications by Brown (professional from Royal Dublin) in 1895. The 1897 course changes left the first 10 holes more or less unchanged but the 11-18 had been alter twice.

By the time of 1908 the course had done the usual and reversed itself, but again many of the early lower numbered (original 1-8) Greens seem to have survived with their fairways, believe they are the 11-18 shown on the 1908 course. There may be another couple of Greens as well.

More changes have taken place over the years, but I have not looked into it.

Check your e-mail for more information plus the three maps of the course 1893, 1897 & 1908.

Melvyn


What year did OTM visit the site?

Tom MacWood

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Re: Rosapenna Old Course: How much of Old Tom's layout exists?
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2009, 09:39:20 PM »
Donal
There is nothing left of OTM's layout because there never was an OTM layout at Rosapenna.

According to Kroeger (OTM's recent biographer), and based upon an excerpt from the 1897 Irish Golf Annual, Lord Leitrim commissioned OTM in 1891 to design a private 9-hole course at his residence in Donegal, near the little town of Milford. According to the 1897 report after he laid out this course the Earl took OTM on a tour of the area, including the site where Rosapenna now stands (about 18km from his residence). The Annual said it was at this point that OTM predicted ‘that before long the red coats would be seen diving the gutty over its fine slopes.’ End of story.

Kroeger speculates that OTM requested the Earl allow him to design an 18-hole course at this site and that the Earl may have discussed with OTM certain business opportunities, including a new hotel. That is pure conjecture that is not supported by any of the reports from the time.

If OTM had laid out a course at Rosapenna in 1891 they would have been playing on it within a week or two, if not sooner. What happen was the following: In 1892 the Earl decided to built the Rosapenna Hotel (perhaps inspired by OTM's opinion of the golfing potential) and construction began that year. Unfortunately he didn’t live to see it completed; he died in May 1892. The hotel was eventually completed in 1893, and a new links of 18 holes encircling the hotel, designed by Brown, was opened for play that same year.

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Rosapenna Old Course: How much of Old Tom's layout exists?
« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2009, 11:37:09 PM »


Tom

Do some research, in fact get off your backside and go and find out instead of thinking you know ALL the answers.

As for a course playable in one to two weeks goes to show just how much you know about the 19th Century design process here in the UK. Interesting that you said Myopia took an average of 3 months to build, yet here in the UK according to you it takes 1 to 2 weeks. Love your consistence, what was it again Old Tom did not do Cruden (started in 1894 opened in 1899), nor North Devon, 18 hole course in 1860 opened in 1864) nor the New Course (1894 Opened 1895). Oh yes, lets not forget your comment about Lahinch, Not Old Tom, yet there are a few reports of his modifications to the course in 1894. But as YOU say GB&I courses under Old Tom were open for play in 1 to 2 weeks, even if the evidence states otherwise.

Why do you think I sent my information to Donal direct by e-mail and did not publish it on here?

Melvyn   


Tom MacWood

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Re: Rosapenna Old Course: How much of Old Tom's layout exists?
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2009, 06:15:55 AM »
Melvyn
This would be the perfect time to present your case that OTM laid out the course and Brown altered it in 1895. What have you found? Did OTM came back to the area after the hotel was built or did OTM imagine where and how big the hotel would be, and laid out his course around an imaginary hotel?
« Last Edit: September 03, 2009, 06:24:53 AM by Tom MacWood »

Sean_A

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Re: Rosapenna Old Course: How much of Old Tom's layout exists?
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2009, 06:53:27 AM »
Donal
There is nothing left of OTM's layout because there never was an OTM layout at Rosapenna.

According to Kroeger (OTM's recent biographer), and based upon an excerpt from the 1897 Irish Golf Annual, Lord Leitrim commissioned OTM in 1891 to design a private 9-hole course at his residence in Donegal, near the little town of Milford. According to the 1897 report after he laid out this course the Earl took OTM on a tour of the area, including the site where Rosapenna now stands (about 18km from his residence). The Annual said it was at this point that OTM predicted ‘that before long the red coats would be seen diving the gutty over its fine slopes.’ End of story.

Kroeger speculates that OTM requested the Earl allow him to design an 18-hole course at this site and that the Earl may have discussed with OTM certain business opportunities, including a new hotel. That is pure conjecture that is not supported by any of the reports from the time.

If OTM had laid out a course at Rosapenna in 1891 they would have been playing on it within a week or two, if not sooner. What happen was the following: In 1892 the Earl decided to built the Rosapenna Hotel (perhaps inspired by OTM's opinion of the golfing potential) and construction began that year. Unfortunately he didn’t live to see it completed; he died in May 1892. The hotel was eventually completed in 1893, and a new links of 18 holes encircling the hotel, designed by Brown, was opened for play that same year.


Tommy Mac

You didn't quite portray Kroeger's words correctly.  "[Morris then convinced Lord Leitrim to let him lay out an 18 hole course on this linksland (ie nearby Sheephaven Bay)...]"

In addition to the 1897 Irish Golf Annual Kroeger also mentions a Morris reference in Sportsman's Holiday Guide (1897). 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Rosapenna Old Course: How much of Old Tom's layout exists?
« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2009, 07:23:36 AM »

 A look at the Timeline for Rosapenna

One or two have raised questions and made some interesting statements (courses everywhere else take on average 3 months to build by pupils of OTM), yet in GB&I they only take 1 or 2 week if by Old Tom. So let’s look at the timeline

The initial invitation to Old Tom Morris was not issued until October 1891, The 4th Earl of Leitrim died in April 1892 causing all his plans including the hotel and golf course to be put on hold. After the Funeral, the new 5th Earl of Leitrim was legally a minor so the Trustees of the Estate with Lady Leitrim reviewed the projects. It was agreed to continue with the development of the Hotel and course as all the initial works was close to completion. The Course was formally opened on the 15th August 1893.

I see no problem with the projected Timeline, it is similar to The New Course, faster than Cruden Bay, on line with Castletown IOM (another resort project).

Reports of Brown’s visit that I have seen seem to relate to him travelling north from Royal Dublin to tweak the course, which appear to refer mainly to the last half dozen holes.

More information may surface, yet so have some report that Old Tom walked Rosapenna Links many times then revered his approach to locate the Greens. Some say the number was 15 natural green sites with just three requiring serious construct. Yet it is certain he was taken to the site of the hotel and did walk the Links, apparently on quite a few occasions before leaving Donegal. Remember that this was the age of the pony and trap in the countryside. Yes, the train only took the strain between towns and cities, but the journey would have been interesting for a man in his seventies. Therefore, whatever time was required, he would have been spent at the location to study the land for both course. Unlike today, it would not have been a flying visit, in and out in a day or two. Therefore, time was certainly on Old Tom’s side.

The interesting point to all this is that we all know Old Tom did not construct the course or supervise its construction, so someone did who clearly knew golf courses. Could Brown have travelled up earlier than reported, as yet no source has come to light only the Golf Illustrated article from 1910, some 17 years after the event may just be referring to the construction. On the Merion thread, if I am not mistaken much was made out of the words to define design with construction.

A few years later at Lahinch Old Tom went around the course with Shaw and McKenna advising modifications to the course (no major but still modifications no less which McKenna supervised the construction work). Interesting point to note is that a report apparently from the Limerick Chronicle states the James McKenna was only employed at Lahinch for the Summer of 1894 at 18 shillings a week plus 2 shillings a round for instruction. At the end of the summers, he went back to Limerick and returned to Lahinch for the summer of 1895. Yet again, a different report years later claims McKenna undertook the design at Lahinch in 1894, however, Golf & the Club state clearly the mods were down to Old Tom. Funny how reports vary over the years.

Melvyn

PS  Tom you pass on very little, your share just about 0, your tone if you do not agree is appalling. The whole point of research is to find the truth. You have a problem with OTM, get over it. I have no need to prove anything to you, time and again, you make statements Not Old Tom and you have been proven wrong, get a life and move on. For my part if Old Tom did not get design or modify a course, no big deal, I move on checking others and trying to put the record straight. However, no more sharing anything with you.  This is my last open post on passing on historical golfing information - you just are not worthy.     

Dónal Ó Ceallaigh

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Re: Rosapenna Old Course: How much of Old Tom's layout exists?
« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2009, 08:31:02 AM »
My purpose in posting this subject was to stir a discussion (I think I have succeeded), but also to get some info on Rosapenna. For example, if the current course differs so much from the 1906 (Vardon) layout, who is responsible for today's present layout? Colt has been mentioned as well as Braid. I don't have any axe to grind, and I'm certainly not interested in reducing OTM's contribution or exaggerating it either.

One thing I wold like to say, is that certain clubs have an interest in crediting their layout to a famous architect. I see this as the case with Rosapenna. OTM is highlighted by Rosapenna Resort as having designed the present layout, yet it's clear he's not the architect of the current layout. Stockholm Golf Klubb is a perfect example of that: a Colt design according to the club, yet no evidence of Colt having made any contribution.

I don't see the location of the hotel as a big issue. It could have been located anywhere adjacent to the road crossing the present 1st hole. It's possible that the small lane to the beach pre-dates the hotel, so a decision could have been made beforehand to have the course start and end close to there.

The Leitrim Papers were catalogued in 1999 by the National Library of Ireland, so there might be some documents in the archive related to the course development.

Paul:

Thanks for sending the Golf Illustrated article again. As for Colt, I have no more info on his input to the design of Rosapenna. I came across this link between Colt and Rosapenna at the Colt Association web site. I contacted the Colt Association by e-mail, but got no reply.

Melvyn:

Thank you for the info. I will look into it and give you my comments.

Dónal.

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Rosapenna Old Course: How much of Old Tom's layout exists?
« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2009, 11:03:29 AM »

Donal

We are talking about a time span of 116 years, plus by 1908, the Haskell ball was taken over from the older gutty, so I would be surprised if many hole were the same as the 1893 course.

I do not understand why you would be so surprised that things have changed. Some of the original land of the Old Course was sold off and is now on private land with the holes no longer in play. Nevertheless, most of the changes occurred between 1897 and 1908. However, after the First World War for approx the next 70-80 years the Old Course has remained little changed with minor adjustments here or there. Some original Greens may well remain as some fairways, but they would have been lengthened by the early 20th Century.

It was certainly not uncommon to see major changes in the late 1890’s, another prime example is Muirfield, many changes between 1891 and The Open in 1896.

The reason why we have as many Greens and fairways dating from Old Tom era relates to the designers that followed, being more that happy with the original concept, thus made minimal changes. James Braid was one advocate of this and through his good services is a reason why so many Old Tom holes remain. The old adage, ‘If it ain't broke, don't fix it’.

In 1906, Vardon modification to the old course were major and incorporated the use of the new rubber cored ball. He lengthened the Valley as OTM course travelled north east after today 3rd hole. Braid changed the 5 & 8th but both left the 11 & 12 as known today are OTM originals.

Therefore, through time, modified equipment and changes in property title has conspired to the current layout of the course.

Melvyn

Tom MacWood

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Re: Rosapenna Old Course: How much of Old Tom's layout exists?
« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2009, 05:38:36 PM »
Donal
There is nothing left of OTM's layout because there never was an OTM layout at Rosapenna.

According to Kroeger (OTM's recent biographer), and based upon an excerpt from the 1897 Irish Golf Annual, Lord Leitrim commissioned OTM in 1891 to design a private 9-hole course at his residence in Donegal, near the little town of Milford. According to the 1897 report after he laid out this course the Earl took OTM on a tour of the area, including the site where Rosapenna now stands (about 18km from his residence). The Annual said it was at this point that OTM predicted ‘that before long the red coats would be seen diving the gutty over its fine slopes.’ End of story.

Kroeger speculates that OTM requested the Earl allow him to design an 18-hole course at this site and that the Earl may have discussed with OTM certain business opportunities, including a new hotel. That is pure conjecture that is not supported by any of the reports from the time.

If OTM had laid out a course at Rosapenna in 1891 they would have been playing on it within a week or two, if not sooner. What happen was the following: In 1892 the Earl decided to built the Rosapenna Hotel (perhaps inspired by OTM's opinion of the golfing potential) and construction began that year. Unfortunately he didn’t live to see it completed; he died in May 1892. The hotel was eventually completed in 1893, and a new links of 18 holes encircling the hotel, designed by Brown, was opened for play that same year.

[/quote]

Tommy Mac

You didn't quite portray Kroeger's words correctly.  "[Morris then convinced Lord Leitrim to let him lay out an 18 hole course on this linksland (ie nearby Sheephaven Bay)...]"

In addition to the 1897 Irish Golf Annual Kroeger also mentions a Morris reference in Sportsman's Holiday Guide (1897). 

Ciao

Sean
Regarding Kroeger's speculation: I wrote OTM "requested"; Kroeger wrote "convinced." Do you think that is major distinction? I don't. Either way, the important point is its all Kroeger's speculation.

As far the Sportsman Holiday Guide is concerned, the quote does not mention or reference OTM by name. Kroeger was very clever in the way he used 'OTM course' prior to the quote, giving the impression the Holiday Guide actually mentioned OTM. Here is the excerpt from the book.

Tom MacWood

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Re: Rosapenna Old Course: How much of Old Tom's layout exists?
« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2009, 05:48:32 PM »

 A look at the Timeline for Rosapenna

One or two have raised questions and made some interesting statements (courses everywhere else take on average 3 months to build by pupils of OTM), yet in GB&I they only take 1 or 2 week if by Old Tom. So let’s look at the timeline

The initial invitation to Old Tom Morris was not issued until October 1891, The 4th Earl of Leitrim died in April 1892 causing all his plans including the hotel and golf course to be put on hold. After the Funeral, the new 5th Earl of Leitrim was legally a minor so the Trustees of the Estate with Lady Leitrim reviewed the projects. It was agreed to continue with the development of the Hotel and course as all the initial works was close to completion. The Course was formally opened on the 15th August 1893.

When did the private course for the Earl open for play? Did OTM return to Rosapenna at any point after October 1891? If not, why not?

I see no problem with the projected Timeline, it is similar to The New Course, faster than Cruden Bay, on line with Castletown IOM (another resort project).

Neither the New course or Cruden Bay were designed by OTM.

Reports of Brown’s visit that I have seen seem to relate to him travelling north from Royal Dublin to tweak the course, which appear to refer mainly to the last half dozen holes.

Could you post those reports?

More information may surface, yet so have some report that Old Tom walked Rosapenna Links many times then revered his approach to locate the Greens. Some say the number was 15 natural green sites with just three requiring serious construct. Yet it is certain he was taken to the site of the hotel and did walk the Links, apparently on quite a few occasions before leaving Donegal. Remember that this was the age of the pony and trap in the countryside. Yes, the train only took the strain between towns and cities, but the journey would have been interesting for a man in his seventies. Therefore, whatever time was required, he would have been spent at the location to study the land for both course. Unlike today, it would not have been a flying visit, in and out in a day or two. Therefore, time was certainly on Old Tom’s side.

That seems to be common refrain from you, "more information may surface that reports OTM...."

The interesting point to all this is that we all know Old Tom did not construct the course or supervise its construction, so someone did who clearly knew golf courses. Could Brown have travelled up earlier than reported, as yet no source has come to light only the Golf Illustrated article from 1910, some 17 years after the event may just be referring to the construction. On the Merion thread, if I am not mistaken much was made out of the words to define design with construction.

That is very interesting speculation.

A few years later at Lahinch Old Tom went around the course with Shaw and McKenna advising modifications to the course (no major but still modifications no less which McKenna supervised the construction work). Interesting point to note is that a report apparently from the Limerick Chronicle states the James McKenna was only employed at Lahinch for the Summer of 1894 at 18 shillings a week plus 2 shillings a round for instruction. At the end of the summers, he went back to Limerick and returned to Lahinch for the summer of 1895. Yet again, a different report years later claims McKenna undertook the design at Lahinch in 1894, however, Golf & the Club state clearly the mods were down to Old Tom. Funny how reports vary over the years.

Could you post those reports?

Melvyn

PS  Tom you pass on very little, your share just about 0, your tone if you do not agree is appalling. The whole point of research is to find the truth. You have a problem with OTM, get over it. I have no need to prove anything to you, time and again, you make statements Not Old Tom and you have been proven wrong, get a life and move on. For my part if Old Tom did not get design or modify a course, no big deal, I move on checking others and trying to put the record straight. However, no more sharing anything with you.  This is my last open post on passing on historical golfing information - you just are not worthy.     

Tom MacWood

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Re: Rosapenna Old Course: How much of Old Tom's layout exists?
« Reply #14 on: September 03, 2009, 06:38:05 PM »
Here is another article of Golf Illustrated 1908 (please forgive the poor quality)

Tom MacWood

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Re: Rosapenna Old Course: How much of Old Tom's layout exists?
« Reply #15 on: September 03, 2009, 07:09:23 PM »
Donal
I wish I knew the answer to your question, but I don't. There is very little info on the make up of the original course so its difficult to know what survived, if anything. Late in 1905 it was reported Vardon was traveling to Lahinch and Rosapenna to lay out new courses. I know he didn't lay out a new course at Lahinch (I don't believe he made any significant changes there), but I'm not sure what he did at Rosapenna. He is mentioned in the 1908 article above but there is nothing about his involvement. I found this article in The Time (September 19, 1919), and from the sounds if it the present course may be more Colt than anyone else, and his redesign took place around 1913.

Paul_Turner

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Re: Rosapenna Old Course: How much of Old Tom's layout exists?
« Reply #16 on: September 03, 2009, 09:25:26 PM »
Thanks Tom

As for recent developments, does anyone know the story?  It seems complicated.  I read that Hackett added 9 and a few from the older 18 were lost/changed (including the fine 13th) because of road crossing.  And then the arrangement is changed again with a new 18 by Ruddy. 

Can anyone piece together the changes over the last 10 years or so?  Thanks
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Dónal Ó Ceallaigh

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Re: Rosapenna Old Course: How much of Old Tom's layout exists?
« Reply #17 on: September 04, 2009, 04:00:35 AM »
It's difficult keeping up with all these posts!

Regarding the changes in the last 10 years, maybe I can give some info on the changes since the mid 1980s.

1. The starting and ending holes have been changed in the last few years. The old 11th (as it was in the 1980s-90s) is now the 1st. The old 10th (as it was in the 1980s-90s) is now the 18th.

2. The bunker at the front left of the old 4th (present 12th) dates from the 1980s. In the 1980s, the course was infested with rabbits. The problem was so bad, they erected an electric fence about 18 inches high around the old 1st and the valley holes (old 1st-10th), present the 9th-18th. I don't remember if there was a fence enclosing each hole, or if it was just one fence surrounded all the holes. It was meant to keep the rabbits out, but it didn't seem to work very well. The rabbits did so much damage, that the hollow to the front left of the 4th (present 12th) green was dotted with burrows. The easiest solution was to make a bunker there, and that's what was done. Previously, there was a lovely little hollow where balls landing slightly off-line would roll back into this area.

3. Same story with the bunker in the hollow in front of the old 6th (present 14th). This was also created in the 1980s.

4. The tee on the old 16th (present 6th) has been brought forward to the other side of the road (probably for safely reasons). It has been reduced from 216 yds to 167 yds and is now a pretty useless hole, according to my father. Change has taken place in the last few years. The old version was a superb hole.

5. The old 5th (present 13th) has been increased by 100 yds. This hole used to be a great drivable par 4 of 255 yds. I don't know how the lengthened hole plays. Change has taken place in the last few years.

6. The old 7th (present 15th) has been increased from 367 yds to over 419 yds (I don't have the latest card available, so my yardages might be wrong). Change has taken place in the last few years.

6. The old 8th (present 16th) has been increased from 485 yds to over 515 yds (I don't have the latest card available). Change has taken place in the last few years.

6. The old 13th (present 3rd) has been increased from 455 yds to 481 yds (I don't have the latest card available). Change has taken place in the last few years.

6. The old 1st (present 9th) has been increased from 287 yds to 318 yds (I don't have the latest card available). Change has taken place in the last few years.

There may be other changes that I am unaware of.

Dónal.

Dónal Ó Ceallaigh

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Re: Rosapenna Old Course: How much of Old Tom's layout exists?
« Reply #18 on: September 04, 2009, 04:16:14 AM »
I forgot to mention that the new Strand 9 holes designed by Pat Ruddy (and renovated/altered by Tom Doak) is being opened this month. This will become the first 9 of the "old" course and will tie in with existing "valley" holes on the old course. I assume they will use holes 10-18 of the old course as the 2nd 9.

The 13th on the old course (present 3rd) has not been lost. The coastguard holes 1st-9th still exist and will be used as an "Academy" nine (not sure what that means). In other words, they'll probably wait until the economy picks up again and build a few hundred holiday homes on it  :)

Dónal.

Paul_Turner

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Re: Rosapenna Old Course: How much of Old Tom's layout exists?
« Reply #19 on: September 04, 2009, 08:10:14 AM »
Donal

Thanks, it's all very complicated!

So I'm assuming the "original" (1980s and earlier)18 is still intact but one half has been relegated to a "practice" course.

One thing I'm not sure of is what Hackett did there. In "Links of Heaven" published in 1996 they write that 11, 12, 13 (and one moe?) are doomed because of road crossing:

"Insurance coverage on the four road crossing holes is prohibitive, says Casey, and the old course will soon be merged with a new 18 designed by the outstanding Eddie Hackett.  There will be an Old Tom Morris Nine,  but some of the Scot's most intriguing work will disappear forever".

In the Confidential Guide 1980s.  T Doak raves about the 5th, is it still around too?
« Last Edit: September 04, 2009, 08:12:01 AM by Paul_Turner »
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Dónal Ó Ceallaigh

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Re: Rosapenna Old Course: How much of Old Tom's layout exists?
« Reply #20 on: September 08, 2009, 03:22:19 AM »
Paul,

Yes, the "original" 18 holes is still there. One hole crossing has been eliminated at the old 16th (present 6th) but several more remain. I don't see how these can be used as a practice course as the insurance will still be an issue. Holes 11, 12, and 18 (present 1st, 2nd, 8th) still cross roads, so unless they start modifying the layout, there will still be a problem with safety.

Do you mean the 5th (was 255 yds par 4, but now extended to 355 yds) or 6th (157 yds). I guess you mean the 6th. Yes, it's still there.

I'm not sure about Hackett's input. Maybe someone else has more info. I recall reading something about him designing some holes in the 1970s, but considering the financial state of Rosapenna in the 1970-80s, it's no surprise that nothing came of it. Maybe these holes were in the Strand course area which is less hilly. Also, Hackett wasn't one to design courses where earth had to be moved (this is generally why he's not as appreciated as he perhaps should be), so laying a course where the Sandy Hills course is, wouldn't have been an option then. Also the money wouldn't have been available.

Perhaps Pat Ruddy can give some info on this.

One thing to remember about Hackett is that he put forward designs for many courses in Ireland, but in many cases the courses were never built, as the clubs usually has very little money. This can result in a lot of confusion, as many designs are incorrectly attributed to him.

Dónal.


Tom MacWood

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Re: Rosapenna Old Course: How much of Old Tom's layout exists?
« Reply #21 on: September 08, 2009, 10:42:50 PM »
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Richard Phinney

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Re: Rosapenna Old Course: How much of Old Tom's layout exists?
« Reply #22 on: September 09, 2009, 09:40:52 AM »
Eddie was the first to lay out the nine holes that were to be combined with the old nine holes they were planning on keeping (at that point).  I had a look at them at some stage and they looked like a lot of fun.  But for various reasons Pat Ruddy overhauled them, I think reversing the layout in places.

Martin Toal

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Re: Rosapenna Old Course: How much of Old Tom's layout exists?
« Reply #23 on: September 09, 2009, 10:19:49 AM »
Interesting to hear about the history and new developments at Rossapenna. Although never one of my favourite Donegal courses, I well remember looking down the road to se if any cars were coming before hitting a tee shot across.

jeffwarne

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Re: Rosapenna Old Course: How much of Old Tom's layout exists?
« Reply #24 on: March 02, 2011, 11:06:27 AM »
I forgot to mention that the new Strand 9 holes designed by Pat Ruddy (and renovated/altered by Tom Doak) is being opened this month. This will become the first 9 of the "old" course and will tie in with existing "valley" holes on the old course. I assume they will use holes 10-18 of the old course as the 2nd 9.

The 13th on the old course (present 3rd) has not been lost. The coastguard holes 1st-9th still exist and will be used as an "Academy" nine (not sure what that means). In other words, they'll probably wait until the economy picks up again and build a few hundred holiday homes on it  :)

Dónal.

So has anyone played the new Strand nine at Rosapenna?

I'd be curious to hear Pat Ruddy and Tom Doak's thoughts on the process and how pleased they are with the finished product.
And if they've seen it since it opened( in 2009?)

Is the Strand nine closer in character to the Valley nine? which used to be the front nine of the Morris course and is now the back.
Or does the Strand nine more closely resemble the Ruddy course? Or a hybrid of the two or something altogether different.
Thanks
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

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