[Dan Kelly]

I know the answer to this one (I think), but it's an interesting answer that others will enjoy knowing:

How did you end up in Dallas?

(A question I can answer: Q. How did the Minnesota North Stars end up in Dallas? A. NORM SUCKS!)

[Garland Bayley]

I know the answer to this one (I think), but it's an interesting answer that others will enjoy knowing:

How did you end up in Dallas?

(A question I can answer: Q. How did the Minnesota North Stars end up in Dallas? A. NORM SUCKS!)

Read the thread Dan. He did a "marketing survey" by looking at city yellow pages. DFW did not have a GCA in the yellow pages.

[Dan Kelly]

I know the answer to this one (I think), but it's an interesting answer that others will enjoy knowing:

How did you end up in Dallas?

(A question I can answer: Q. How did the Minnesota North Stars end up in Dallas? A. NORM SUCKS!)

Read the thread Dan. He did a "marketing survey" by looking at city yellow pages. DFW did not have a GCA in the yellow pages.

Turns out I DID know the answer! (I'll read the thread later, Bayley -- on my home computer, where the typography isn't unreadable for my aging eyes.)

[Jeff_Brauer]

Is there any job that you would love to go back and have another shot at and do things considerably different?

There are a few I wish I had more budget on, including the one Chris Clouser is asking about.  At Dornick, as I have explained, I wasn't hired to restore it. I was hired to match Dick Nugent's style while being more accessbible from Dallas.  We asked about restoring it - I noticed the grass hollows that were clearly bunkers at one time.  No one was interested, esp. since it had been torn up a few times before.  But, that job could have been better. We really didn't even match Dick's style as well as we should have.

I hope that Jeff would say he would totally change the green complexes at Great Southwest GC.

Not sure why you would say this Lou.  Some say they have too much contour, but they don't bother me a lot.

What is your favorite golf course on Earth (or elsewhere)? I'm not asking for "the best"; I'm asking for your favorite. In other words: You have one day of golf left. Where will you spend it?

My faves are many Raynor courses (started liking him at Shoreacres years ago) Royal Melbourne, SFGC and Seminole.  It would be one of those.

How did you end up in Dallas?

When I decided to go on my own, I thought it would be honorable NOT to open up shop down the street from KN.  Also, my then fiancee and I wanted to be down south somewhere.  I went to the library (you know, Barnes and Noble for the poor and/or frugal) studied the phone books and found out that Dallas was the only major southern city without a gca in the yellow pages.  I went home and said "Honey, pack your bags for Dallas."  I could have written "Cheap but good Market Research."


What is the best hole you've ever designed? Why is it the best?

I am partial to a few holes at the Quarry, like the 6th and the 8th. I just like how different they are from most of my stuff, and how I was able to use the Quarry features.

Do you start every job with a checklist of hole-types that you MUST include, if the land allows it? If so, what are they?

I call it a "hip pocket list" and unlike many gca, have way more than 18 concepts I would like to try. I detailed the basic thinking in Paul Daley's book and on Cybergolf.  In essence, presuming the golfer likes to hit the driver every time (accepting a few layups because of environmental restrictions) I think you can ask him to optionally carry, skirt, or stay short of fw hazards, on both the inside and the outside of the DL.  Of course, you can have no hazards, fw rolls of various types (spline, gentle rolls, etc.) and you can have the occaisional double fw hole - either short cut or two equal routes.  Since all those options total more than 14 long tee shots you are going to have on a course, I figure each course shouldn't have more of each type.

Ditto approach shots.  My list includes 9-10 "Sunday Pin" Greens, with the tough pin in each of the nine spaces of a tic tac toe board, maybe 3-4 small single target greens, and then a few multisection greens and at least one green that makes you go "hmmm" or based on a historic concept.  All placed in appropriate locations, of course.

Have you ever designed a hole and thought: "There's nothing else like this anywhere"?

I have designed several commenting that "you won't see that hole on your home course!"  At the same time, everything I have ever done that seemed unique, I have eventually seen was done somewhere in similar fashion else way earlier.

Which course (of yours, or anyone's) would you most like to redesign? Provided: You are allowed to blow up and plow under everything that's there now.

Last (but not least): How many helpless rodents have you golf-carted to death?

Just the one.

Why are you a Raynor fan?

I just fell in love with Shoreares years ago.  The then super explained the whole copy and template concept way before it was famous with more people.  It just seemed so different than modern design.  But, the big valleys at SA also provided natural beauty.

Are you happy you did that Biarritz green at the Wilderness at Fortune Bay?

It might be a little deep.

I understand that the guy who owns (or originally owned) the Legacy in Des Moines sets extremely quick deadlines and keeps costs down by using his contractors to do the work.  Presumably that approach sacrifices from detail in exchange for cost reductions and revenue coming in the door more quickly.  Do you think that approach makes sense form the perspective of a person who is opening a golf course?  By the way, while that is not the prettiest course on the planet, it is a fun test of golf.

His contractor was he and his sons, although we found him one shaper and one tractor guy.  To my eye, the course is poorly detailed. I was surprised when I saw it 10th on the best new affordable list of GD that year.  I also get a lot of nice comments on it.  But, the owner built it for about half what normal courses cost, so he can make it as an affordable public golf course.  Again, nothing wrong with that. And, its a good lesson in what is important to the retail golfer.

Is a trip to the 3 Minnesota courses (Giants Ridge Legends, Quarry and Wilderness at Fortune Bay) a pretty good representation of how your design approach has evolved over time?  Particularly with respect to green contours?

Those three courses are probably too close together in time to be a real judge, but in a way, the flattish greens at the Legend are pretty typical of my earlier work.  The Quarry was an attempt to break my own mold and I was asked at the Wilderness to split the difference, which I think I did well and which many say is their fave of the three - the right bowl of porridge so to speak.

[Dan Kelly]

How much thought do you give to women and senior men as you design your courses?

[Joe Hancock]

How much thought do you give to women and senior men as you design your courses?

Interesting question. In the context of your other thread about overhearing, perhaps the lad's father wasn't ogling a woman, he was looking at a.....nawwwww, never mind. That's just wrong.

Your turn, Jeff. How much thought do you give to women?

 

[Jeff_Brauer]

Dan,

A LOT.  I was quoted in WSJ last year about how courses are too long.  After the site visit yesterday, I asked them to measure the course from all tees to make sure we didn't have par 5's in particular that are too long.

If women hit it 140 on average and seniors 190 (which are typical) then their range of 4 par 5's ought to be from 1.9X tee shot distance on one to 2.9X max on the longest (maximum length true three shotter)  In truth, the max par 5 length ought to be 2.5-2.66 tee shot distance.

That means a reachable par 5 for ladies is really a par 4 and the longest we should have to allow them to hit it in 3 is about 420.  If we stick with 405 as the shortest legal par 4, there is a very narrow range for that forward tee group.

Ditto with the 190 crowd.  The shortest par 5 to recreate the thrill of hitting it in 2 is not a par 5, its a par 4.  If we accept legalities of par (which I would actually fudge a little bit, they should have par five holes of maybe 470 to 505 or so.

For that matter, looking at 36 to maybe 40 shots for each at those distances, and hoping that the average approach is half the tee shot length, the max length of an entire course for them can only be 3750-4200 yards for ladies and 5130 to 5700 for seniors, with perhaps 4000 and 5400 maybe the right yardage......

In short, I am ruing the poor placement of forward tees on many of my earlier courses and trying to make amends.

[Dan Kelly]

In short, I am ruing the poor placement of forward tees on many of my earlier courses and trying to make amends.

Jeff --

I don't want to hijack this thread, and this subject certainly deserves a thread of its own, but what the hell...

My daughter Rose now drives the ball maybe 210-220 off the tee, in typical conditions, playing courses that are between 5,500 and 6,100 yards.

It seems to me, having watched her play quite a bit, that on many courses (possibly most), either the fairway bunkers won't be much in play for good women players -- or, if they are in play, the greens will be much less accessble than they are to good men players, because the women must play longer clubs, with lower trajectories, to those greens.

In short: Good women players who aren't really LONG must be able to play the "ground game" -- landing short of many greens and bouncing the ball on.

How do you try to match your greens with the approach shots required to reach them? Is it possible to design equally effectively for the 300-yard man and the 140-yard woman?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Its tough. I keep thinking that golf courses will become more specialized, with some taking out the 7400+ yard tees altogether as impractical.

If you plot a golf hole from where everyone "should" play, there are very few areas that don't see action, thus the elimination of cross hazards in most modern designs.  Add in where different levels play in the more and more common scrambles and its really a mess.  In short, we can probably figure that almost any green, regardless of hole length, will have someone hitting at it from their max distance of either 140 or 190.  If you design for that, all the greens get to be about the same size, but I make them smaller on any hole exceeding 385 for seniors or 280 for women.  And, I make small greens for long par 4's that the 230 player or 260 player can't reach in two shots. I figure they are playing wedge in at the third to a long iron for the good guys from the back tees.

Frankly, I wonder how often that works out in practice though.

[Steve Lang]

  Jeff,

Ms Sheila (12-15 H'cap) would tell you  6000 yards is just right.. which on many courses means playing from middle tees and moving up on some par threes..  she hates the uninspired tee shots from most forward tees..

Is the Wilderness at Lake Jackson the southern end of the Brauer Trail?

 

[Bill Kubly]

Probably not the place for a commentary on Jeff, but I felt I needed to talk a little about one of the most talented and under-rated GCA's in the business.  Not only is Jeff a great architect, he is one of the funniest and smartest guys in the business.  His quick wit and dry sense of humor has kept many audiences wide awake over the years.  

I met Jeff in about 1979 when I literally begged Killian and Nugent to let me take the contract to remodel 3 holes at a course in Hammond, Indiana.  Jeff ended up being the project architect on that job and we have been close friends ever since.  I do take the credit for pushing Jeff to go out on his own.  At the time he really had no great responsibilities (kids, wife, etc), so why not.  It was really important for him to have a Dallas address, so he rented a tiny office on prestigious Preston Road in Dallas and hung out his shingle.  

I told Jeff that he needed a set of plans with his name on them so I helped get  him the job to design a 9 hole addition at Holdrege CC in Nebraska for $5,000 or $8,000 that we then constructed soup to nuts for  $225,000.  The course turned out very good for that price.  We could only move $25,000 worth of dirt so we ran a little short on the last hole.....

Another one of my favorite Brauer stories was back in 1980 when we were building the second 9 holes at Lake Arrowhead in central Wisconsin.  We went out to play the front 9 one day and Jeff had to use my wife's golf clubs.  The first green had a double-level green and Jeff was on in regulation.  He then proceeded to 5 putt for a triple bogey.  I think he learned something about those double level greens that day, but then preceeded to shoot a 38.  Not bad with a triple-bogey start, and using my wife's clubs......

We have built and renovated many courses for Jeff over the years and I know that Landscapes has learned much for these experiences.  He has designed many great courses in his carreer, many of which are considered some of the best where they are located.  Like some other architects, Jeff's sites in many cases include housing developments which can limit the statue that the courses can attain.  When Jeff has been given a blank sheet of paper on a great site to work with, he comes up with GREAT GOLF.

This industry is very tough right now for all of us. Jeff will be a survivor because Golf Course Architecture is his life.  I can't imagine the business without him.  His career at his Golfscapes has always been a little bit of a roller coaster and it isn't fair that he has never been considered one of those "top ten architects", even though he is one.  In talking with Notah Begay two days ago about Jeff and his work at Firekeeper, Notah could not have been happier with his work, and this was before his last visit that took place yesterday that I heard went very well.  

I consider Jeff to be one of the best golf course architects in the business, and expect him to be designing and re-designing courses for many years to come.......TO A GOOD FRIEND!!!!

Bill Kubly
Landscapes Unlimited

[Jeff_Brauer]

Bill,

Thanks for the kind words.  What a "This is your life moment!"  Ok, tell me the truth.....am I dying?

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I had the pleasure of playing with Jeff at The Wilderness Club. The name is appropriate and fits Jeff fun dry sense of humor. I will add it was great fun and as not to make this sound like this is his funeral leave it at he is a great guy. We are lucky to have him enjoy GCA and give his thoughts to us.

[Ian Andrew]

Jeff,

Thanks that was a fun read - I love how honest you are - I don't think many realize how hard that can be in your position.

I'm glad we got to play Pacific Dunes together.

Your a class guy - too bad your dying     

Regards,

Ian

[Lou_Duran]

I hope that Jeff would say he would totally change the green complexes at Great Southwest GC.

Not sure why you would say this Lou.  Some say they have too much contour, but they don't bother me a lot.

JB,

I am sure we've discussed this previously, but perhaps we just disagree on the matter.  The qualifier "some" is a bit understated wouldn't you say?

The greens not only have too much contour limiting the number of pin positions, but the surrounds were dramatically elevated, mounded, hollowed in some areas, drastically changing the feel and play of the gently rolling, heavily treed, often windy site.  I am not sure the extent to which the steep slopes were responsible for the decision to convert from bent (SR1020?) to bermuda (Champion) three or four years after your work, but as much as two thirds of some of the greens can't "fairly"  handle a pin when they are firmed up and the grain is under control.

Drainage and irrigation issues may or may not be related to the green design, but the back to front general sloping can't help but to contribute to the approaches being wet and soft, negating the important bump and run shot that was possible back when I first joined the club in 1981.  Today it is an aerial attack course with far fewer short game options around the greens.

As you may recall, GSW was once considered to be one of the best courses in Texas.  It was already well along the slide when you were brought in, a few years after Sowell had sold off the land comprising the old 17th hole for multi-family development.  I woulld like to think that a more caring owner would have allowed you to be more sympathetic to the original Plummer design, even with the loss of some 300 yards and the replacement of the three affected holes (10, 11, 17) with vastly inferior ones.  But if you are happy with the greens there as they are, maybe not.

Today GSW is a "good" course.  I much prefer your work at TangleRidge, Ridgeview Ranch, and Cowboys.  I need to get back to The Bridges as I think that there could be a lot more there than readily meets the eye.  BTW, that's quite a testimonial from Mr. Kubly, someone whose credentials speak most highly.     

[Dan Kelly]

Bill,

Thanks for the kind words.  What a "This is your life moment!"  Ok, tell me the truth.....am I dying?

I hate to break it to you, Jeff, but we all are -- some, blessedly slowly; others, like a chipmunk under the tires of a golf cart speeding toward the 17th tee.

Let's hope we're both dying the first way, OK? We need to hit the Brauer Trail at least once more, before we go.

(Of course, we're both at least on the verge of being Older Than Dirt -- based on understanding the allusion to "This Is Your Life"!)

Sincerely yrs.,
Ralph Edwards

[Jeff_Brauer]

I hope that Jeff would say he would totally change the green complexes at Great Southwest GC.

Not sure why you would say this Lou.  Some say they have too much contour, but they don't bother me a lot.

JB,

I am sure we've discussed this previously, but perhaps we just disagree on the matter.  The qualifier "some" is a bit understated wouldn't you say?

The greens not only have too much contour limiting the number of pin positions, but the surrounds were dramatically elevated, mounded, hollowed in some areas, drastically changing the feel and play of the gently rolling, heavily treed, often windy site.  I am not sure the extent to which the steep slopes were responsible for the decision to convert from bent (SR1020?) to bermuda (Champion) three or four years after your work, but as much as two thirds of some of the greens can't "fairly"  handle a pin when they are firmed up and the grain is under control.

Drainage and irrigation issues may or may not be related to the green design, but the back to front general sloping can't help but to contribute to the approaches being wet and soft, negating the important bump and run shot that was possible back when I first joined the club in 1981.  Today it is an aerial attack course with far fewer short game options around the greens.

As you may recall, GSW was once considered to be one of the best courses in Texas.  It was already well along the slide when you were brought in, a few years after Sowell had sold off the land comprising the old 17th hole for multi-family development.  I woulld like to think that a more caring owner would have allowed you to be more sympathetic to the original Plummer design, even with the loss of some 300 yards and the replacement of the three affected holes (10, 11, 17) with vastly inferior ones.  But if you are happy with the greens there as they are, maybe not.

Today GSW is a "good" course.  I much prefer your work at TangleRidge, Ridgeview Ranch, and Cowboys.  I need to get back to The Bridges as I think that there could be a lot more there than readily meets the eye.  BTW, that's quite a testimonial from Mr. Kubly, someone whose credentials speak most highly.     

Lou,

We have spoken of this before.  First, the management did request greens steeper than normal in an effort to limit green speed and I wouldn't do that again.  I think Champions can be made as fast as the old bent and heat tolerance was the biggest factor.  I wasn't consulted on the re-grass, and IMHO, when the dragged the greens out they changed some contours.  For example, the distninct tiers on the 9th were sort of dragged together and the whole green has too much slope now.

I don't think they have ever replaced the irrigation system and that does contribute do some overwatering around the greens.

And, under the circumstances I was hired under in 1991, preserving a Plummer design, which was then viewed as "dated", "dull" and an impediment to membership sales, no, there was no consideration to restoring it.  They wanted a whole new look.  They did get a letter from Byron Nelson who said the mounds in front of no. 2 green were his idea, so we preserved those.  But, not much else. 

The elevated greens came from budget that required us to balance cut and fill on site, rather than haul fill, so we were limited there.  In the case of any green near Johson Creek (4, 9, 18) flood control rules meant we also had to lower some areas to build the greens up, resulting in some deep grass bunkers.  And, we only redid 15 greens, since they had just rebuilt 3 the year before.

I still enjoy playing there and am sorry to hear you are not!

Dan,

I actually only saw This is your life a few times.  But, I couldn't resist the reference.

Cheers.

[Mike_Young]

Jeff,
I think it is quite admirable for you to subject yourself to all of this...AND it is quite educational for all.

For the rest of you,
Jeff and I are in a very competitive business with a lot of pettiness....and it gets in the way of many guys communicating....
I think I may have met Jeff just once before GCA.com.  .And a few years back we had a few discussions over GCA.com as the old ASGCA topic would arise.  He really only knew me via second hand discussions but thru GCA.com he gave me the benefit of the doubt.  He once told me he based his knowledge of a person more on how they had treated him over the years than hearsay. And I likewise.   W/o really knowing much about my work he offered to sponsor me with ASGCA.....he did not have to do any of that...so I consider him a friend and I hope you gus realize he is a BIG  friend to this site ....do you realize how few guys in the business will actually take the time to even discuss these topics with a site such as GCA.com......just the time he spent in the last few days on this site is a lot of typing with two fingers.  
BTW, I am trying to sponsor Jeff into some kind of organization but I am not a member of anything that would have me for a member

Jeff....are ya'll going to have food at this funeral?

[Garland Bayley]

Jeff,

How many of your courses have been reviewed on this site? Have you saved links to those reviews?

B Bird

[Lou_Duran]

Jeff,

I still enjoy playing GSW occasionally, and considered "rejoining" when I moved back to TX so I could play with my peeps.  I finally decided against the 45 minute drive each way because of the mandatory riding on weekend and holiday morning tee times and the unresolved drainage issues around the greens.  As it turns out, a number of my friends have left the club since, and a few more are set to bail out now.  Apparently, Texas Star has a great annual deal including carts and range for around 60% of the dues at GSW (not including carts).

I fully concur with Mike Young's comments.  You continue to be right at the top of contributors to this site.  Now, if I could only get you to see green design from my perspective!    I will say that you appear to be moderating on your mounding, which I think is a good thing.

[Jay Flemma]

It's funny, but as Jeff will tell you, I'm also in the middle of interviewing him for a project.  There are a lot of similar qs between my interview and our discussion here.  I'll post mine when Jeff gets done answering my latest set of questions.

Nice series, George.

[George Pazin]

Probably not the place for a commentary on Jeff, but I felt I needed to talk a little about one of the most talented and under-rated GCA's in the business.  Not only is Jeff a great architect, he is one of the funniest and smartest guys in the business.  His quick wit and dry sense of humor has kept many audiences wide awake over the years.  

I met Jeff in about 1979 when I literally begged Killian and Nugent to let me take the contract to remodel 3 holes at a course in Hammond, Indiana.  Jeff ended up being the project architect on that job and we have been close friends ever since.  I do take the credit for pushing Jeff to go out on his own.  At the time he really had no great responsibilities (kids, wife, etc), so why not.  It was really important for him to have a Dallas address, so he rented a tiny office on prestigious Preston Road in Dallas and hung out his shingle.  

I told Jeff that he needed a set of plans with his name on them so I helped get  him the job to design a 9 hole addition at Holdrege CC in Nebraska for $5,000 or $8,000 that we then constructed soup to nuts for  $225,000.  The course turned out very good for that price.  We could only move $25,000 worth of dirt so we ran a little short on the last hole.....

Another one of my favorite Brauer stories was back in 1980 when we were building the second 9 holes at Lake Arrowhead in central Wisconsin.  We went out to play the front 9 one day and Jeff had to use my wife's golf clubs.  The first green had a double-level green and Jeff was on in regulation.  He then proceeded to 5 putt for a triple bogey.  I think he learned something about those double level greens that day, but then preceeded to shoot a 38.  Not bad with a triple-bogey start, and using my wife's clubs......

We have built and renovated many courses for Jeff over the years and I know that Landscapes has learned much for these experiences.  He has designed many great courses in his carreer, many of which are considered some of the best where they are located.  Like some other architects, Jeff's sites in many cases include housing developments which can limit the statue that the courses can attain.  When Jeff has been given a blank sheet of paper on a great site to work with, he comes up with GREAT GOLF.

This industry is very tough right now for all of us. Jeff will be a survivor because Golf Course Architecture is his life.  I can't imagine the business without him.  His career at his Golfscapes has always been a little bit of a roller coaster and it isn't fair that he has never been considered one of those "top ten architects", even though he is one.  In talking with Notah Begay two days ago about Jeff and his work at Firekeeper, Notah could not have been happier with his work, and this was before his last visit that took place yesterday that I heard went very well.  

I consider Jeff to be one of the best golf course architects in the business, and expect him to be designing and re-designing courses for many years to come.......TO A GOOD FRIEND!!!!

Bill Kubly
Landscapes Unlimited

Bill, I cannot thank you enough for this fantastic post. It is exactly what I was hoping for in this series, and I hope that each of us has a good enough friend on here to share similar stories. Please know that you have a friend in Pittsburgh, if you didn't before, and contact me if you're ever in the area.

Everyone else take note! Q&A is fantastic, but sharing stuff like this is even better, imho.

Kyle Harris is on deck, btw. I will be starting his thread on Monday or Tuesday - I don't want to jump in right before a holiday weekend. But start thinking up questions for another motivated industry guy.

And don't be offended if I haven't contacted you yet.

[Brian Phillips]

It's funny, but as Jeff will tell you, I'm also in the middle of interviewing him for a project.  There are a lot of similar qs between my interview and our discussion here.  I'll post mine when Jeff gets done answering my latest set of questions.

Nice series, George.

Jay,

If it was not for Jeff I would not be in the business...period!  No one else influenced me about my decision to get into the business more than Jeff.  No one encouraged me more than Jeff.  No one called me a chicken if I didn't more than Jeff!

I have now made a living from this profession with my own company for the last 7 years with one year off studying a masters (which he also encouraged and questioned at the same time...).

Jeff you are the man!

[Lou_Duran]

I am getting teary-eyed reading all these effusive testimonials.  Here I've been living for 20+ years next to a saint and didn't even know it.  I've played many of Jeff's courses and always enjoyed them.  He designs with good scale, and his courses seem to play somewhat easier than they look.  He does a great job of getting a large bang for the buck, and for this reason I recommend everyone lookiing for great value to seek his courses.  In fact, there's a foursome coming in from Utah this weekend for the OU-BYU game who are playing Cowboys all day tomorrow based on my recommendation.  I know that they will be very pleased with the venue (the new Cowboys stadium as well).

[Jeff_Brauer]

Brian,

I am uploading the files you requested as we speak.  In reality, no one goes into the biz without a very high level of motivation.  With probably dozens of people trying to talk you out of it, you kept calling around until you found someone to tell you it was a good idea, no?

Lou,

You didn't notice the halo when we played last month?

George,

I think Mr. Kubly himself would be a better subject than I was!  I hope your ideas survives your poor choice of an initial subject.  But, I do thank those who gave me a chance to expound on things.....it was kinda fun for a day.

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