The soul of golf.......Askernish

[Melvyn Morrow]

Aidan

Sorry for the delay in responding, but I expect you already know what my reply will be.

I just love it, what’s the saying, the one about wisdom coming out of the mouths of children…
"and what would these be far" he asks. "Look at the flag, that's how far away it is"   Touché!!!!!!!  Touché Indeed with bells on.

See I am not alone in this world, it’s the honest and only way we to fully understand how the game should be played, even out kids know better than the highest paid and most successful Professional golfers of the world.

Smart kid that, mind you my son has not done any more work since assisting you with your round.

There may yet be hope for The Damned (those consistent offenders of worshiping at the joint alter of Distance & Aids). I am certain there is something in the Bible about the dangers of making false idles (today they are referred to as markers) and using substitutes for the real thing.

Just loved it, thanks

Melvyn

PS MacW quote “I think most of the course looks boring in the pictures”  If you ever get to Askernish, I look forward the  WARM WELCOME you will be given, not just by the club but the whole island of South Uist who seem keen on the course. Your clearly portray your full and complete understand of Links courses and of the in-depth beauty our GB&I game. Your arrival on the island, I would imagine would be like a re run of Whisky Galore, no after what you have said I think The Wicker Man seem the only option IMHO 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEOQqnHMSMc 

[Tom MacWood]

Here is a link to the architect's report on the project. Why Melvyn continues to play up this course as an OTM is bizarre....of course Melvyn tries to play up every course as an OTM course, so maybe it isn't so bizarre. 

http://www.mackenzieandebert.co.uk/Downloads/AskernishReport2006-03.pdf

[Mark Pearce]

A fascinating read, Tom.  It's dated 2006. Is the Mackenzie Ebert design the end result?

[Adrian_Stiff]

That is very interesting, the McKenzie-Ebert design was not the one built or at least some of them wer'nt. Perhaps they found further information to the exact OTM routing. If they did not and they merely used the land to their configurement it does kinda throw a spanner in the works. If it closed in 1936, there must be someone alive that could remember the actual.

[Tom MacWood]

A fascinating read, Tom.  It's dated 2006. Is the Mackenzie Ebert design the end result?

Martin Ebert designed the present course.

[Niall C]

I also noticed a bit of a contradiction in the MacKenzie/Ebert report in that it talked about some of the lost greens being within the dunes, and that these holes were lost to make way for a runway and that the remaining holes were on the flatter area. Why would you build a runway in the dunes when there is a flatter area nearby ? Something wrong there me thinks.

Adrian - interesting comment above. Not sure if they found a course plan at the end of the day. If they didn't it would be interesting to see what they did if a plan of the original course did show up, not entirely impossible I wouldn't have thought.

Niall

[Tom MacWood]

Here is a later report that discusses some of the changes. No mention of finding anything new about the original course.

http://www.mackenzieandebert.co.uk/Downloads/Askernish/Askernish%20Update%202007-05.pdf

[Jim_Kennedy]

Edit/Redundant.

[Adrian_Stiff]

I would have thought it would be possible to map the whole land and find the old tees and green areas, the flatter areas would show up, a bit like sorting a jigsaw puzzle. I would have thought the old routing could be traced, once you find one hole, you have some good clues where the next one is going to start atleast.

[Mark Pearce]

A fascinating read, Tom.  It's dated 2006. Is the Mackenzie Ebert design the end result?

Martin Ebert designed the present course.

Is that a yes or a no?  I wasn't actually trying to stir an argument but your answer is so clearly avoiding answering the question that I have to assume the answer is that no, the design described in the 2006 document is not the current design.  Adrian's response reinmforces this. Therefore, I'll ask a different question.  Do you know for sure that after the 2006 report more of the old course was revealed and reinstated?

Another question also comes to mind.  When you posted the report did you already know that the course described was not the one now in place?  If so, why did you not make that clear?

[Niall C]

I would have thought it would be possible to map the whole land and find the old tees and green areas, the flatter areas would show up, a bit like sorting a jigsaw puzzle. I would have thought the old routing could be traced, once you find one hole, you have some good clues where the next one is going to start atleast.

Adrian,

Good point. Given the course was built in 1891, almost certainly the next tee would virtually be adjoining the green, assuming of course they built a tee ie flat rectangular area. If so it should be relatively easy to identify quite a few of the holes I would have thought. Is there an aerial of the area available pre-construction of the new course ?

Niall

[Adrian_Stiff]

Q- Is the 2nd plan the built one? There are numerous changes from the initial plan they produced. The text certainly infers that the design for the new 18 hole course at Askernish is not the OTM routing at all and that the RT and his team more looked to produce the best course they could from the landscape.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Adrian,
It is an Old Tom Moreorless design. 

[Tony_Muldoon]

Adrian,
It is an Old Tom Moreorless design. 

 

[Adrian_Stiff]

Adrian,
It is an Old Tom Moreorless design. 

 

Which in fairness was what Tom MacWood was saying.   

[Tom MacWood]

Mark
Yes, it is a Mackenzie Ebert design. Here is another link.

http://www.mackenzieandebert.co.uk/paskernish.html

No, when I posted the report I didn't realize the design was changed. The minor (or major) changes to the design are immaterial as far as I'm concerned. The reason I posted the report was to show how little information they had to go on and that the course is not an OTM restoration.

[Melvyn Morrow]

I am aware of Martin and his reports, He very kindly sent me copies at the time. In addition, at this time, the club did not have much information from newspapers or golf magazines of the course apart form their one original.

Ralph had local knowledge with additional information coming to light after these report. The date of the original opening was based upon my suggestion of the 24th May 08 being the centenary of Old Tom’s death.
While work progressed on site, I was searching for reports on the old course. The location was known the reports have now confirmed them.

The problem I have with MacWood is that he can’t seem to accept a timeline, that the a course was designed by designer A, that later designer B came along and modified the course then designer C some years later and undertook a further modification. In my mind that states a clear report that Designer A was the original course designer, B modifications although minor changed the way the course played and should also be accredited as designer, same as C. All involved, all responsible for the course design albeit in different time periods. Some courses have many fairways and Greens from the original layout, some have perhaps just one or two and some none. That does not say that A did not design the course, it just states that his work has for the most part been replaced or land titles changed causing course to flow in a different direction. Yet A still was involved so was B, but what has survived for the most part is C course.

I cannot believe that is hard to understand, to follow. I have never said that the course today is all OTM or JB or WC but I do say that at a certain time he was the designer be it original or modified. As for Askernish, I am hoping to meet up soon with Gordon to have a full meeting on the whole course from the very man who was working on the course. Also we are still looking for a map of the course. 

For the full story and details you need to ask the club but my opinion is as follows

Was a course built at Askernish in 1891 by OTM – YES
Is the site of that course known in 2009  - YES
Has the current course been built on the site of the original using as much as can be found of the original fairways and Greens – Yes
How much of the old course has been reused – I can’t answer that until a map if found.
Over the 118 years has the course remained intact, not suffered from the ravages of the storms, of course not.

Just what are all you expecting that the 1891 course was mothballed and left for some future date, that what has been uncovered is the full intact original course, wow now that would be unbelievable, but at times common sense seem to evaporate from the minds of many on this site.

The debate should be about the course, the club and that the original course which was by OTM. 

Old Tom designed Muirfield in 1891, its all changed now, Portrush Old Tom modified the course but nothing left now, does that mean he did not lavish his magic, that thousands did not play over his course when in full play.

Askernish is an OTM course brought back into play after 80 years in the wilderness by one of the most respected green keeper of his time and a quality architect.

Melvyn

PS The problem is MaC Wood makes many comments not all true and time after time I have proved him wrong, Cruden, Westward Hoo
 Lahinch. Reports exist for all.

[Kalen Braley]

Melyvn,

In this case, I think Tom  M. makes a very good point. I should clarify that, if Askernish is just an apporximation of what the course originally was then I agree with his viewpoint.

If the course is not what OTM put in the ground but only a best guess, then I think its very digengenous to market the course as an OTM course.  I understand they want to use his name for marketing purposes, hell they'd be foolish not to...

But can't it just be, this was the site of the original course and we restored what we "think" was the original layout to the best of our ability? Wouldn't saying this be more honest Melyvn?  I mean you of all people should be able to appreciate this the most unless all that talk of integrity, honor, tradition, respect etc was just words you were typing into the keyboard.

Now, if they did have exact plans and were able to put in the ground exactly what he did orginally, this would be a different story and at least a little more compelling in my mind. But it sounds like everyone is admitting this is not the case...

[Mark Pearce]

Melyvn,

In this case, I think Tom  M. makes a very good point. I should clarify that, if Askernish is just an apporximation of what the course originally was then I agree with his viewpoint.

If the course is not what OTM put in the ground but only a best guess, then I think its very digengenous to market the course as an OTM course.  I understand they want to use his name for marketing purposes, hell they'd be foolosh not to...

But can't it just be, this was the site of the original course and we restored what we "think" was the original layout to the best of our ability? Wouldn't saying this be more honest Mmelyvn?  I mean you of all people should be able to appreciate this the most unless all that talk of integrity, honor, tradition, respect etc was just words you were typing into the keyboard.

Now, if they did have exact plans and were able to put in the ground exactly what he did orginally, this would be a different story and at least a little more compelling in my mind. But it sounds like everyone is admitting this is not the case...

I have to agree with Kalen on this. Why suggest that Askernish is anything more than it is, which, I'm afraid, is what I think the club have done?

[Norbert P]

I don't understand why this is called a "frilly" bunker with negative vibes.  Smooth-edged would be better?!  It is a hazard to be avoided and if it's naturally there then wouldn't it be unnatural to grass it over? Adding more expense to mow it and risk a sheep rolling over and injuring itself.


And Anthony, you've waited a week for someone to ask this so I'll step into the left hook . . .  what's a henway?

[Melvyn Morrow]

Kalen

I can only talk for myself. Until a map or detailed descriptions are found, no one can say either way. That is why we have been searching for maps and courses descriptions and thus through our endeavours we have found many old maps, articles and newspaper clippings. Whilst trying to prove one point we have uncovered many more on other courses throughout Scotland. This information has given us a much clearer understand as to how they did things in the 1890’s. To my great surprise, it has greatly increased the number of courses connected with Old Tom and proving his involvement in some that certain people seem happy to dispute. That information will be released later once I have revised the complete list of OTM courses including collating all the  reports, maps and articles, to produce a close to definitive list of his designs, mods, surveys, openings and as a guest. Or any reports of using the facilities to relieve himself.

The search is not yet over, I am roughly half way through and have just found another three great archives to wade through and who knows there may be something.

I try not to operate on the ‘NO, that was not by him’ attitude.  I prefer to work with others slowly trying to link the dots together, sometimes it takes you down the path you just did not expect.  On research, one thing that does stand out is that it’s a one-way road with Tom MacW. I feel working together with others through GCA.com would be the ideal way to progress and share with all. However, that’s just not possible.  Tom will tell you that he did not believe that W Park designed Burntisland (recommendation by OTM), so I passed on a report confirming Willie involvement from the Scotsman, yet he still did not believe the recommendation, so I have ceased passing on info. If you start with the attitude that the other person is talking bullocks, you get nowhere quickly and it might in someway explain the others character. Whatever, I will not be passing on any more, as usual, we all lose when we don’t co-operate.

As for Askernish, it is an OTM course in my opinion, I was not party to all the construction or surveying, just providing recorded information.

Those arguing, I am certain are not out to hurt the club but I believe trying to get to me, however, its water on a ducks back as far as I am concerned. The search has not stopped.

Perhaps more may be posted soon

Melvyn

[Tom MacWood]

PS The problem is MaC Wood makes many comments not all true and time after time I have proved him wrong, Cruden, Westward Hoo
 Lahinch. Reports exist for all.

You're dreaming. OTM did not design Cruden and Lahinch - they were designed by Archie Simpson and James McKenna respectively. He did design Westward Ho! and I never claimed he did not. I simply pointed out there was a golf course at North Devon prior to Old Tom's visit so its difficult to know what was preexisting and what was OTM. Old Tom was a very important figure but your exaggeration of his architectural accomplishments is unfortunate because it robs those who deserve the credit.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Mark

The club web site states the following which I do not find misleading and quite clear.

The web site stated the following

Situated on the beautiful island of South Uist in the Outer Hebrides of Scotland, Askernish is a fine challenge for any grade of golfer. First laid out by Old Tom Morris in 1891, it has recently been restored to its original position under the guidance of Gordon Irvine (Master Greensman) and Martin Ebert (Architect) using entirely traditional design principles.

The states under restoration

The following March, Gordon returned to the island with Martin Ebert (Architect), Chris Haspell (Greenkeeper) and Adam Lawrence (Editor, Golf Course Architecture). Aided by a group of club members the team plotted their way through the machair area, using "Old" Tom's design principles to retrace what they believed to be the original eighteen holes.

I feel none of this is out of order and totally proper.

[Tom MacWood]

Tom will tell you that he did not believe that W Park designed Burntisland (recommendation by OTM), so I passed on a report confirming Willie involvement from the Scotsman, yet he still did not believe the recommendation, so I have ceased passing on info. If you start with the attitude that the other person is talking bullocks, you get nowhere quickly and it might in someway explain the others character. Whatever, I will not be passing on any more, as usual, we all lose when we don’t co-operate.

Where do you come up with this stuff? Here are links to my profile on Park and a thread dealing with Burntisland. I did not question that Park was involved at Burntisland, I questioned the dates. Accuracy is not your strong suit when it comes to me or OTM.

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,34770.msg704293/

http://golfclubatlas.com/in-my-opinion/in-my-opinion-the-early-architects-beyond-old-tom-by-tom-macwood/the-early-architects-beyond-old-tom-by-tom-macwood-pg-iii

Interesting logic there regarding the present Askernish course being an OTM course.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Tom

There are full lists of reports on Cruden from 1894 to 1899 with OTM name. iI addition, what about the mods OTM made to Lahinch in 1894, you posted the article yourself. You may dismiss it as minor yet it did not say McKenna modified it, did it. The modifications were not radical but you are unwilling to have an open and honest debate to move it forward, you sit and say It not OTM, well explain your  article you posted why did it not say Mckenna design, but yes he undertook the work. What was it you told me Old Tom with his daughter and my grandmother went over on a fully paid holiday and not to modify the courses. So why did the report say he went around making changes and again the next day? How will that sort of attitude get any debate going? Just can't debate with you. You seem to have your own agenda.  

Melvyn