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Norbert P

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Re: The soul of golf.......Askernish
« Reply #150 on: September 06, 2009, 01:40:53 PM »
      I cannot conceive why anyone could not see excitement in this land.  

http://golfcoursephotography.com/results.asp?KW=Askernish

Tom M, you are one of the most qualified historians on this site.  Have you any interest in prehistory? The truth and reality of geologic processes may enlighten you to forget about who did what where and just focus on what the earth has given them.

  A terrific book of golf geology is Scotland's Golf Courses by Robert Price.

http://www.amazon.com/Scotlands-Golf-Courses-Robert-Price/dp/1841830305                         
« Last Edit: September 06, 2009, 01:53:15 PM by Slag Bandoon »
"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

TEPaul

Re: The soul of golf.......Askernish
« Reply #151 on: September 06, 2009, 01:55:10 PM »
"Have you any interest in prehistory? The truth and reality of geologic processes may enlighten you to forget about who did what where and just focus on what the earth has given them."


Slag:

I have a big interest in geological processes on some sites (and in that vein one of the former PV presidents was a good geologist and had a lot to say about the geological history of PV).

Failing that, however, the most valuable thing to me is a really good PRE-construction topographical contour map!!  ;)

PV has one (and apparently Merion East did too) but unfortunately in the 19th century that kind of thing was rarely if ever done involving golf course architecture.  :'(


Norbert P

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Re: The soul of golf.......Askernish
« Reply #152 on: September 06, 2009, 03:02:47 PM »
Tom, my belated condolences for your loss of this distant relative (?)


http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/14/arts/music/14paul.html

You've always had such great anecdotes about folks in your life, just wondered if you had one about the late, great Les Paul.
"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

Mark Chaplin

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Cave Nil Vino

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: The soul of golf.......Askernish
« Reply #154 on: September 06, 2009, 03:52:57 PM »
Melvyn & Tom - If you read the two reports from Mackenzie/Ebert and look at the two plans they are quite wildly different On that basis at least one of them is crazyly wrong from the Original Old Tom 1891 layout What we also do not know is the changes that were made to the Askernish course up to 1936. We know no changes could have been made by OTM after 1908.
Some of the study work indicates that golf holes were originally on the northern side but the restoration process ended up using what was considered better land to the south. The choice was made by men from the year 2006. Quite clearly more holes are on this area than before. Plan A and Plan B from M&E have some areas as 1 long hole and on another plan the area contains 2 holes.
At the best the new course could only contain some holes from the original OTM creation and in fairness the club do say this within their literature. I dont think you can say that Askernish is a recreation of the Old Tom course. When golf courses are changed its always difficult to quantify and proportiant the works to the architects correctly
Without further information it is going to be very difficult to know who did what, but one concern of mine is the current 11th hole is much touted yet it failed to make the initial plan as drafted.
Another question, is Plan 2 the built plan or are there other changes.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Sean_A

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Re: The soul of golf.......Askernish
« Reply #155 on: September 06, 2009, 05:52:22 PM »

PS The problem is MaC Wood makes many comments not all true and time after time I have proved him wrong, Cruden, Westward Hoo
 Lahinch. Reports exist for all.

You're dreaming. OTM did not design Cruden and Lahinch - they were designed by Archie Simpson and James McKenna respectively. He did design Westward Ho! and I never claimed he did not. I simply pointed out there was a golf course at North Devon prior to Old Tom's visit so its difficult to know what was preexisting and what was OTM. Old Tom was a very important figure but your exaggeration of his architectural accomplishments is unfortunate because it robs those who deserve the credit.

Tommy Mac

You are not being completely forthright concerning Cruden Bay.  OTM's name is most certainly associated with that design and I believe a fair amount, in some sort of cooperation with A Simpson or not, still exists.  We also know that T Simpson and Fowler had much to do with the design.  In the end it likely there is no clear designer and probably all four names should get equal billing.  This is a far cry from OTM not designing and A Simpson designing. 

Ciao     
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield & Alnmouth,

Tom MacWood

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Re: The soul of golf.......Askernish
« Reply #156 on: September 06, 2009, 10:12:47 PM »
Sean
I'm all ears. Tell us what the story is with Cruden Bay - what (and when) did OTM do and what (and when) did Arch Simpson do?

TEPaul

Re: The soul of golf.......Askernish
« Reply #157 on: September 06, 2009, 10:33:51 PM »
"Old Tom was a very important figure but your exaggeration of his architectural accomplishments is unfortunate because it robs those who deserve the credit."


In my opinion, that statement pretty much defines Tom MacWood's reason for being on this website and perhaps generally. With him we have been through this over the years with Pine Valley (Crump vs Colt), Merion (Wilson vs Barker or Macdonald), Myopia (Leeds vs Campbell) and now this course (OTM vs others).

It's an interesting subject and take on these things but to make it credible, I feel he should come up with more than just his usual diet of his "opinion" or some indirect and unclear newspaper article or just the prospect that he thinks there might be something more "out there" that calls for more research. ;)

His raison d'etre seems to be to claim that the "little guy" got overlooked, minimized or dissed at the time or by history. I feel that is both and interesting and important subject and case but if one is going to truly make it they pretty much need to do it better than he has during these years on here! 

Having spent years on this website, and in that vein, seeing Melvyn Hunter Morrow and Tom MacWood go at each other on this thread about who knows what and who doesn't or who is dreaming is truly PRICELESS!
 

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: The soul of golf.......Askernish
« Reply #158 on: September 07, 2009, 08:32:35 AM »

Tom

There are full lists of reports on Cruden from 1894 to 1899 with OTM name. iI addition, what about the mods OTM made to Lahinch in 1894, you posted the article yourself. You may dismiss it as minor yet it did not say McKenna modified it, did it. The modifications were not radical but you are unwilling to have an open and honest debate to move it forward, you sit and say It not OTM, well explain your  article you posted why did it not say Mckenna design, but yes he undertook the work. What was it you told me Old Tom with his daughter and my grandmother went over on a fully paid holiday and not to modify the courses. So why did the report say he went around making changes and again the next day? How will that sort of attitude get any debate going? Just can't debate with you. You seem to have your own agenda.  

Melvyn

If I may chime in about Lahinch seeing as I'm in the middle of researching the changes in the course, I'm with Melvyn on this one. Giving McKenna credit for 'Lahinch' seems strange - Is Tom MaC saying that McKenna and not OTM recommended the routing changes carried out between 1895 and 1897? Equally giving original designers Shaw and Plummer credit is ridiculous if you see how much the course has changed since 1892. OTM's recommendations seem to have been implemented over a few years and they include the introduction of 'Klondyke'. I'm not clear on whether 'Dell' was there from the very start - the club say it was Old Tom but there's nothing to confirm this. Charles Gibson made important changes to the course in 1907 (introducing 6,7 and a completely defunt 8 through the massive Dunes) and has as much claim to the design as Old Tom it would seem. MacKenzie's changes in 1927 were significant. To me, design credit should be shared equally between Shaw & Plummer, OTM, Gibson & MacKenzie.

A lot of conjecture at this point I grant you. But I'd be very interested to know if Tom MacWood has more info than I do at this point. I'd appreciate help from any angles....

Thanks,
Ally

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: The soul of golf.......Askernish
« Reply #159 on: September 07, 2009, 08:59:57 AM »
As with his excellent essays on the early architects, TM shows he has done the research.

It never ceases to amaze me that the most vociferous objections to his scholarship come from people who have ulterior motives, such as books they have written, books they might be writing,  golf clubs they represent, famous relatives whose name they are trading on, etc..

I don't see his essays or posts as trying to change accepted attributions, hHe seems to be more interested in finding out the truth of what went on at a club over its history, no matter where that leads.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2009, 09:11:37 AM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Tom MacWood

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Re: The soul of golf.......Askernish
« Reply #160 on: September 07, 2009, 09:13:04 AM »

PS The problem is MaC Wood makes many comments not all true and time after time I have proved him wrong, Cruden, Westward Hoo
 Lahinch. Reports exist for all.

You're dreaming. OTM did not design Cruden and Lahinch - they were designed by Archie Simpson and James McKenna respectively. He did design Westward Ho! and I never claimed he did not. I simply pointed out there was a golf course at North Devon prior to Old Tom's visit so its difficult to know what was preexisting and what was OTM. Old Tom was a very important figure but your exaggeration of his architectural accomplishments is unfortunate because it robs those who deserve the credit.

Tommy Mac

You are not being completely forthright concerning Cruden Bay.  OTM's name is most certainly associated with that design and I believe a fair amount, in some sort of cooperation with A Simpson or not, still exists.  We also know that T Simpson and Fowler had much to do with the design.  In the end it likely there is no clear designer and probably all four names should get equal billing.  This is a far cry from OTM not designing and A Simpson designing. 

Ciao     

Sean
I've studied the architects and architecture of the 1890s pretty thoroughly, and in almost every case with an incorrect OTM attribution he was at the site. So you are correct, OTM's name is associated with Cruden Bay (and Lahinch), but I have never said his name wasn't associated with those courses (see my essay 'The Early Architects'). At Cruden Bay, Archie Simpson designed the course, OTM made an appearance, inspected the course, and gave his blessing - viola, OTM course. At Lahinch, OTM was on vacation with his daughter and granddaughter, visited Lahinch, which had an existing golf course, made some minor suggestions - viola, OTM course.

Having an OTM was a big deal back in the day, and thats why an inspection or minor suggestion could easily lead to a course being proclaimed Old Tom's. Evidently having an OTM today is still a big deal, see Askernish.

Tom MacWood

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Re: The soul of golf.......Askernish
« Reply #161 on: September 07, 2009, 09:24:04 AM »
     I cannot conceive why anyone could not see excitement in this land.  

http://golfcoursephotography.com/results.asp?KW=Askernish

Tom M, you are one of the most qualified historians on this site.  Have you any interest in prehistory? The truth and reality of geologic processes may enlighten you to forget about who did what where and just focus on what the earth has given them.

  A terrific book of golf geology is Scotland's Golf Courses by Robert Price.

http://www.amazon.com/Scotlands-Golf-Courses-Robert-Price/dp/1841830305                         

Slag
Thats very nice of you to say. I'm interested in geology but I know next to nothing about the subject, and much of what I do know comes from Price's book. I agree it is terrific.

Rich Goodale

Re: The soul of golf.......Askernish
« Reply #162 on: September 07, 2009, 09:30:52 AM »

Tom

There are full lists of reports on Cruden from 1894 to 1899 with OTM name. iI addition, what about the mods OTM made to Lahinch in 1894, you posted the article yourself. You may dismiss it as minor yet it did not say McKenna modified it, did it. The modifications were not radical but you are unwilling to have an open and honest debate to move it forward, you sit and say It not OTM, well explain your  article you posted why did it not say Mckenna design, but yes he undertook the work. What was it you told me Old Tom with his daughter and my grandmother went over on a fully paid holiday and not to modify the courses. So why did the report say he went around making changes and again the next day? How will that sort of attitude get any debate going? Just can't debate with you. You seem to have your own agenda.  

Melvyn

If I may chime in about Lahinch seeing as I'm in the middle of researching the changes in the course, I'm with Melvyn on this one. Giving McKenna credit for 'Lahinch' seems strange - Is Tom MaC saying that McKenna and not OTM recommended the routing changes carried out between 1895 and 1897? Equally giving original designers Shaw and Plummer credit is ridiculous if you see how much the course has changed since 1892. OTM's recommendations seem to have been implemented over a few years and they include the introduction of 'Klondyke'. I'm not clear on whether 'Dell' was there from the very start - the club say it was Old Tom but there's nothing to confirm this. Charles Gibson made important changes to the course in 1907 (introducing 6,7 and a completely defunt 8 through the massive Dunes) and has as much claim to the design as Old Tom it would seem. MacKenzie's changes in 1927 were significant. To me, design credit should be shared equally between Shaw & Plummer, OTM, Gibson & MacKenzie.

A lot of conjecture at this point I grant you. But I'd be very interested to know if Tom MacWood has more info than I do at this point. I'd appreciate help from any angles....

Thanks,
Ally

Ally

Good stuff.  You are well past my brief investigations a few years ago in terms of Lahinch's history, and as you are seemingly working with the club, I'll take your word for your conclusions to date (as well as your very refreshing statements of what you do not yet know for sure).  One niggle--given his significant recent work, should not Hawtree share design credit with "Shaw & Plummer, OTM, Gibson & MacKenzie"?

Slainte

Rich

Sean_A

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Re: The soul of golf.......Askernish
« Reply #163 on: September 07, 2009, 09:39:11 AM »

PS The problem is MaC Wood makes many comments not all true and time after time I have proved him wrong, Cruden, Westward Hoo
 Lahinch. Reports exist for all.

You're dreaming. OTM did not design Cruden and Lahinch - they were designed by Archie Simpson and James McKenna respectively. He did design Westward Ho! and I never claimed he did not. I simply pointed out there was a golf course at North Devon prior to Old Tom's visit so its difficult to know what was preexisting and what was OTM. Old Tom was a very important figure but your exaggeration of his architectural accomplishments is unfortunate because it robs those who deserve the credit.

Tommy Mac

You are not being completely forthright concerning Cruden Bay.  OTM's name is most certainly associated with that design and I believe a fair amount, in some sort of cooperation with A Simpson or not, still exists.  We also know that T Simpson and Fowler had much to do with the design.  In the end it likely there is no clear designer and probably all four names should get equal billing.  This is a far cry from OTM not designing and A Simpson designing. 

Ciao     

Sean
I've studied the architects and architecture of the 1890s pretty thoroughly, and in almost every case with an incorrect OTM attribution he was at the site. So you are correct, OTM's name is associated with Cruden Bay (and Lahinch), but I have never said his name wasn't associated with those courses (see my essay 'The Early Architects'). At Cruden Bay, Archie Simpson designed the course, OTM made an appearance, inspected the course, and gave his blessing - viola, OTM course. At Lahinch, OTM was on vacation with his daughter and granddaughter, visited Lahinch, which had an existing golf course, made some minor suggestions - viola, OTM course.

Having an OTM was a big deal back in the day, and thats why an inspection or minor suggestion could easily lead to a course being proclaimed Old Tom's. Evidently having an OTM today is still a big deal, see Askernish.

Tommy Mac

I agree with you concerning Lahinch.  I don't think enough remains to remotely call it an OTM, but perhaps enough remains that he should get a mention especially for the famous work.  If anybody deserves singular credit it is probably Dr Mac.  However, in the case of Cruden Bay I don't think you are accurate or perhaps we have different ideas of what the "designer of record" means.  I think there is not enough there from any one designer to have a singular credit that is why I suggest the four take more or less equal credit.  I haven't seen any of your documents which prove A Simpson is or should be the archie of record at CB.  Of course, all of this is my opinion based on what I have seen and read.  We all know about opinions....

Ciao

    
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield & Alnmouth,

Tom MacWood

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Re: The soul of golf.......Askernish
« Reply #164 on: September 07, 2009, 10:16:27 AM »

If I may chime in about Lahinch seeing as I'm in the middle of researching the changes in the course, I'm with Melvyn on this one. Giving McKenna credit for 'Lahinch' seems strange - Is Tom MaC saying that McKenna and not OTM recommended the routing changes carried out between 1895 and 1897? Equally giving original designers Shaw and Plummer credit is ridiculous if you see how much the course has changed since 1892. OTM's recommendations seem to have been implemented over a few years and they include the introduction of 'Klondyke'. I'm not clear on whether 'Dell' was there from the very start - the club say it was Old Tom but there's nothing to confirm this. Charles Gibson made important changes to the course in 1907 (introducing 6,7 and a completely defunt 8 through the massive Dunes) and has as much claim to the design as Old Tom it would seem. MacKenzie's changes in 1927 were significant. To me, design credit should be shared equally between Shaw & Plummer, OTM, Gibson & MacKenzie.

A lot of conjecture at this point I grant you. But I'd be very interested to know if Tom MacWood has more info than I do at this point. I'd appreciate help from any angles....

Thanks,
Ally

Ally
What you have uncovered in your research regarding OTM's recommendations at Lahinch? Maybe you should start a new thread - I'm fascinated to learn what you have found.

Tom MacWood

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Re: The soul of golf.......Askernish
« Reply #165 on: September 07, 2009, 10:27:36 AM »

Tommy Mac

I agree with you concerning Lahinch.  I don't think enough remains to remotely call it an OTM, but perhaps enough remains that he should get a mention especially for the famous work.  If anybody deserves singular credit it is probably Dr Mac.  However, in the case of Cruden Bay I don't think you are accurate or perhaps we have different ideas of what the "designer of record" means.  I think there is not enough there from any one designer to have a singular credit that is why I suggest the four take more or less equal credit.  I haven't seen any of your documents which prove A Simpson is or should be the archie of record at CB.  Of course, all of this is my opinion based on what I have seen and read.  We all know about opinions....

Ciao


Sean
Its not a case of very little remaining to give full credit to these older gents, that goes without saying, the truth is there is enough left in both cases that its important to acknowledge the identity of the original architect or architects.


Ally Mcintosh

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Re: The soul of golf.......Askernish
« Reply #166 on: September 07, 2009, 11:11:22 AM »

If I may chime in about Lahinch seeing as I'm in the middle of researching the changes in the course, I'm with Melvyn on this one. Giving McKenna credit for 'Lahinch' seems strange - Is Tom MaC saying that McKenna and not OTM recommended the routing changes carried out between 1895 and 1897? Equally giving original designers Shaw and Plummer credit is ridiculous if you see how much the course has changed since 1892. OTM's recommendations seem to have been implemented over a few years and they include the introduction of 'Klondyke'. I'm not clear on whether 'Dell' was there from the very start - the club say it was Old Tom but there's nothing to confirm this. Charles Gibson made important changes to the course in 1907 (introducing 6,7 and a completely defunt 8 through the massive Dunes) and has as much claim to the design as Old Tom it would seem. MacKenzie's changes in 1927 were significant. To me, design credit should be shared equally between Shaw & Plummer, OTM, Gibson & MacKenzie.

A lot of conjecture at this point I grant you. But I'd be very interested to know if Tom MacWood has more info than I do at this point. I'd appreciate help from any angles....

Thanks,
Ally

Ally
What you have uncovered in your research regarding OTM's recommendations at Lahinch? Maybe you should start a new thread - I'm fascinated to learn what you have found.

Tom, would it be rude of me to ask what you've found to suggest James McKenna should get highest billing as designer of Lahinch?... Seeing as I got there first with the questions...

Rich, I'd agree about Hawtree. I should have mentioned him although perhaps I didn't because all of the others made significant changes to the routing whilst Dr.Hawtree essentially changed the plan back to that of MacKenzie, albeit with two completely different Par-3's at 8 and 11.

To be honest, very little (if any) of my research at this early stage is original. I am relying on information fed to me by club historian Enda Glynn and others. But these are pieces of information that have not been joined together before. Fr Glynn's centenary book has a good chapter on the evolution of the course but it has some fundamental problems with the evolution of the holes from inception up until Gibson's changes in 1907. What is clear is that Klondyke was not part of the course in 1895 (Dell was) but was by the time Gibson arrived. It was introduced in 1897 on a previous recommendation by OTM and it is quite probable that the original holes 1,2 & 3 were also based on that recommendation as the course previously went nowhere near Klondyke's teeing area.... However, if Tom MacWood thinks that McKenna instigated all of those 1895 to 1897 changes and that they had nothing to do with OTM, then I'd like to know why he thinks that. In addition, I'd like to know why he thinks McKenna designed the original course and not Plummer and Shaw?... Maybe we should move this to another thread right enough...

Brian Phillips

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Re: The soul of golf.......Askernish
« Reply #167 on: September 07, 2009, 11:23:03 AM »
Rich and Ally,

I agree with you Rich that Martin should get credit for Lahinch now as he has done a wonderful job there and even has one brand new hole there.

If I was you Ally I would contact Martin and I am sure that he would be very helpful with the history of the course.  I think Martin knows who did what greens and when.

It is on threads like this I wish The EIGCA members (of which myself and Ally are members) would get involved more.  I just don't understand why our membership does not involve themselves more.
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Tom MacWood

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Re: The soul of golf.......Askernish
« Reply #168 on: September 07, 2009, 11:38:30 AM »
Ally
I thought perhaps you had something new - as you know we've been over this before on old threads.

This is from Golf magazine from July of 1894: “Lahinch was discovered two years ago and has been visited by Tom Morris who pronounced it of the finest links in the United Kingdom. Morris and his daughter and granddaughter arrived at Lahinch on the afternoon of the 29th of May. He went over the links and offered suggestions on the lengthening of several holes, but on the whole making no radical changes to the links, which was originally projected by Captain AW Shaw and James McKenna.”

A February 1900 article in Golf Illustrated claimed the course “was laid out by James McKenna.”

From the Irish Times March 1897, P McCarthy, General Manager, Listowel and Ballybunion Railway said the links at Ballybunion were ‘quite first class and a sporting course, laid out by the professional who had laid out the links at Lahinch and Dollymount.’ And to further support that story the Irish golfers guide of 1897 names Ballybunion’s designer as James McKenna, who did this work ‘at the instance of the Lartigue Railway Company.’

From the Hermitage GC history: “Mr. James McKenna, then professional at Carrickmines Golf Club in south Co. Dublin was commissioned to construct the course. James McKenna came with excellent credentials as a well-known Golf Architect of the day having been involved in the lay-out and construction of such well known Clubs as Lahinch Golf Links, the Links at old Ballybunion and Waterville, Co. Kerry and later with the Killiney and Portmarnock Clubs.”

McKenna has to be one of the most significant Irish golf architects in history, especially early golf architects, you would think the Irish would be celebrating him instead of trying to bury him under the OTM legend.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2009, 11:42:53 AM by Tom MacWood »

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: The soul of golf.......Askernish
« Reply #169 on: September 07, 2009, 02:54:39 PM »
Tom,

Thanks for that. There are a couple of pieces there that I have not seen before and certainly furthers the claim of McKenna. However, there are also a couple of things that need cleared up. I knew of McKenna's involvement at Ballybunion but that course was completely abandoned in 1906 and the club did not exist again for another six years. Completely different course.

And having just concluded some research at Portmarnock, I would be most interested in hearing of any involvement he had there as I came across none. There were many changes over the years at Portmarnock but the only significant one I do not have a name against happened in 1908. Perhaps that was where McKenna came in. Incidentally, it is not always the lesser known man that gets buried in the records. John S.F. Morrison and probably Harry Colt had instrumental parts to play at Portmarnock, most likely being largely responsible for the high esteem the course is currently held in. Yet their names are nowhere to be seen in the records. So it works the other way too.

Back to Lahinch - If McKenna was responsible for that original course, it still leaves us trying to work out who was responsible for those instrumental changes in the years that followed. Perhaps it was he also. Perhaps it was on OTM's recommendations. Maybe we'll never know.

Brian, I will try and contact Martin at some point to talk about this. I'm pretty well versed on the changes since Gibson (1907) and have spent a day or two walking the links and making them work in my mind. There's some surprising stuff also (including an extensive article from The Irish Independent from 1936 stating how the links are much improved since their recent modifications i.e. mods made to the MacKenzie course). It's the changes prior that need more clarity. I'll spend some time on then when I visit again in late October.

Ally

Melvyn Morrow

Re: The soul of golf.......Askernish
« Reply #170 on: September 07, 2009, 05:15:14 PM »

Tom MacWood only sprouts the facts he wants you to hear, he believes he knows all about the fundamental re the 1890 architects, yet the most important item he has never mention or even suggested, why because he missed it, he does not have any idea how  theses early architects worked.
He stated on this site that the average course around 1900 took 3 months
(as I also mentioned), yet when he talks of OTM course he credits Old Tom courses being open in two weeks or sooner. Seems something is wrong there, something not quite right, shouts of double standards, or being honest, his total lack of understanding.

He loves trying to belittle me by making statements about OTM, being accredited by a club for using the rest room, or OTM was on holiday when he went to Lahinch, yet he cannot offer one tiny bit of proof to support his lies and insults. Remember it’s my family he reports to know all about.

My search and if anyone bothered to read my words relates to courses connected with OTM. I am not saying he is the only one designer, but I do say he had a design input into these courses whether they are still there or not or his work survives or not. Its part of the history of the course and each mod should be recorded with its designer to give us the full picture. Yes, OTM was involved. One singel frame does not make a motion picture its the collection of the frames that give us the whole picture. 

Lahinch, the records state OTM did no make any RADICAL changes. OK who ever said he redesigned the whole course, I have always said he modified it with the work by McKenna. What McKenna did before or in later years is open to whatever approach one wants, but it does not take away that OTM modified the course in 1894. I also find it interesting that a report from the Limerick Chronicle states McKenna just worked the summers of 1894 & 5. They state that James McKenna was only employed at Lahinch for the summer of 1894 at 18 shillings a week plus 2 shillings a round for instruction. At the end of the summers, he went back to Limerick and returned to Lahinch for the summer of 1895.  Not my find, but interesting, yet the truth is that Shaw trust OTM to modify the course. Its fine making statements but saying ‘not OTM’ and that he is taking credit for the work of others is total bollocks. If MacWood is saying that in 1894 it was McKenna who designed the modifications and not OTM because Old Tom was on a paid holiday courtesy of Shaw, then that not confirmed in any report, but OTM mods are. His determination to undermine OTM is what drives him, why, you have to ask him but don’t tell me it’s because OTM was wrongly accredited for some design/modification work.

Paul Daly in his interview some years ago on GCA.com actually made the opposite statement that others were being accredited for OTM work. So who is right?

Lahinch was modified by OTM, certainly not a full redesign, it was not that radical. The ‘not radical’ statement is furnished by MacW and the article he printed. Yet it clearly states OTM was there, He arrived on the 29th of April 1894 and left for Dublin on the 5th of May 1894. OTM went around the course on at least two occasions making recommendations. He would not do the actual construction/modification work but expect the Club Professional would, who was McKenna. I make no claim but that OTM modified Lahinch in 1894 as confirmed by the same article MacWood stated. The real problem in that no formal report was published or apparently published on what were OTM actual suggestion. There are more reports of OTM modifying the course at Lahinch in 1894 in the Scotsman (1902) and in the book (1907) by Tullock confirming his trip to Lahinch.  OTM on his return stayed in Dublin for a few days playing a couple of matched at Dollymount with Brown and others before returning to St Andrews. Oh, yes, just for your information a few years earlier OTM was proposed for the design Dollymount, but due to the clubs finances it was done in-house.   

Cruden Bay, OTM was commissioned to do the work in 25th September 1894 to lay out a new course for the Great Northern Scottish Railways. This was not the 9 hole Port Erroll course which was closed in 1895 to make way for the new GNSR station complex, but their new resort. The Design was completed and according to some reports an 18 hole course was actually laid out, but was changed when the addition requirement of a 9 hole course was added, this being the St Olaf’s Course opened with the main course in 1899. The design and routing by OTM but the whole construction managed and overseen by Simpson. However, MacW with all this information states that Simpson was the designer. No comment on the fact that Simpson was local while OTM was based at St Andrews, just too obvious an explanation, and of course in the eyes of some just pure fantasy as it does not fit in with their opinions.  Reports from 1896 & 7 into 1899 advise of OTM involvement, but
again this is not good enough for some.

I for all my failings, do try to seek the truth, there are at times when we seek to join the dots and a little conjecture/speculation may allow the dots to join. But of course, that is not proof, yet that works both ways. Nevertheless, the only way to actually discover the truth and accredit all the designers involved in some of our great and smaller courses is to try to come together and work for the common good. I have tried but failed at each fence, others seem more than happy to take the piss, to try to redirect the story, stating that of course they are seeking the truth.

I never though I would accept defeat, but I do so regards GCA.com and with some of its members. The truth is the first casualty and seems to matter very little to some, yet that is all we have to link our lives to past and future generations.

The Askernish web site states exactly what and how they proceeded yet the likes of Mark & Kalen on the back of MacWood, have swallowed his various statements, yet appear not to have read the web site.

MacWood, has his own opinions and states them, but does not want to adjust his viewpoint no matter what may be found. However, to be fair to him, he has maintained his position throughout even in the face of alternative evidence or explanation to the reports he publishes. 

Jim K, in most of his posts seems very bitter towards me, my opinions and his latest statement:-
“It never ceases to amaze me that the most vociferous objections to his scholarship come from people who have ulterior motives, such as books they have written, books they might be writing,  golf clubs they represent, famous relatives whose name they are trading on, etc..”   
I find this most objectionable, it shows what this site is becoming , full of lies, no consideration for others or their point of view.  The harm it is doing is unbelievable, instead of working with each other to give others a quality viewpoint we offer bickering, unfinished debates, leaving things more unresolved than before the debates were started. As for Jim’s comment, trading on famous names, I have not received one penny, not taken the courtesy of one course or freeloaded drink, food or any item nor do I live off their names.  Again, just see how low some on this site will stoop to try to make some untrue point or other, however the most telling is yet again there is no proof to back up his statement, just nasty self-centred crap from someone who should know better.

I am totally guilty of sharing as much information as I can, of providing contacts, of arranging close to 100 courtesy of the course for others and where possible of just trying to help.

I am not leaving, but have decided not to share any of my finds, which I wanted to first publish on this site. I expect the debates will go on but I wonder to what standard they will finally sink to.

Melvyn


Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The soul of golf.......Askernish
« Reply #171 on: September 07, 2009, 10:01:14 PM »
Tom,

Thanks for that. There are a couple of pieces there that I have not seen before and certainly furthers the claim of McKenna. However, there are also a couple of things that need cleared up. I knew of McKenna's involvement at Ballybunion but that course was completely abandoned in 1906 and the club did not exist again for another six years. Completely different course.

I believe the course was abandoned in 1898, and re-established at the same site in 1906. The original links was on the property of a Mr. Hewson. The re-established course of 1906 was laid out by a Mr. Hewson. I don't know if they were the same Mr. Hewson and I don't if he restored the original course.

And having just concluded some research at Portmarnock, I would be most interested in hearing of any involvement he had there as I came across none. There were many changes over the years at Portmarnock but the only significant one I do not have a name against happened in 1908. Perhaps that was where McKenna came in. Incidentally, it is not always the lesser known man that gets buried in the records. John S.F. Morrison and probably Harry Colt had instrumental parts to play at Portmarnock, most likely being largely responsible for the high esteem the course is currently held in. Yet their names are nowhere to be seen in the records. So it works the other way too.

I would have disagree; relatively speaking John Morrison is a lesser known man. His work has been largely ignored, but I wouldn't put his involvement at Portmarnock high on his list. I'd say Cairnes would be the unsung man at Portmarmock.

Back to Lahinch - If McKenna was responsible for that original course, it still leaves us trying to work out who was responsible for those instrumental changes in the years that followed. Perhaps it was he also. Perhaps it was on OTM's recommendations. Maybe we'll never know.

What work are you referring to?

Brian, I will try and contact Martin at some point to talk about this. I'm pretty well versed on the changes since Gibson (1907) and have spent a day or two walking the links and making them work in my mind. There's some surprising stuff also (including an extensive article from The Irish Independent from 1936 stating how the links are much improved since their recent modifications i.e. mods made to the MacKenzie course). It's the changes prior that need more clarity. I'll spend some time on then when I visit again in late October.

Ally

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The soul of golf.......Askernish
« Reply #172 on: September 07, 2009, 10:21:19 PM »

Tom MacWood only sprouts the facts he wants you to hear, he believes he knows all about the fundamental re the 1890 architects, yet the most important item he has never mention or even suggested, why because he missed it, he does not have any idea how  theses early architects worked.
He stated on this site that the average course around 1900 took 3 months
(as I also mentioned), yet when he talks of OTM course he credits Old Tom courses being open in two weeks or sooner. Seems something is wrong there, something not quite right, shouts of double standards, or being honest, his total lack of understanding.

He loves trying to belittle me by making statements about OTM, being accredited by a club for using the rest room, or OTM was on holiday when he went to Lahinch, yet he cannot offer one tiny bit of proof to support his lies and insults. Remember it’s my family he reports to know all about.

My search and if anyone bothered to read my words relates to courses connected with OTM. I am not saying he is the only one designer, but I do say he had a design input into these courses whether they are still there or not or his work survives or not. Its part of the history of the course and each mod should be recorded with its designer to give us the full picture. Yes, OTM was involved. One singel frame does not make a motion picture its the collection of the frames that give us the whole picture.  

Lahinch, the records state OTM did no make any RADICAL changes. OK who ever said he redesigned the whole course, I have always said he modified it with the work by McKenna. What McKenna did before or in later years is open to whatever approach one wants, but it does not take away that OTM modified the course in 1894. I also find it interesting that a report from the Limerick Chronicle states McKenna just worked the summers of 1894 & 5. They state that James McKenna was only employed at Lahinch for the summer of 1894 at 18 shillings a week plus 2 shillings a round for instruction. At the end of the summers, he went back to Limerick and returned to Lahinch for the summer of 1895.  Not my find, but interesting, yet the truth is that Shaw trust OTM to modify the course. Its fine making statements but saying ‘not OTM’ and that he is taking credit for the work of others is total bollocks. If MacWood is saying that in 1894 it was McKenna who designed the modifications and not OTM because Old Tom was on a paid holiday courtesy of Shaw, then that not confirmed in any report, but OTM mods are. His determination to undermine OTM is what drives him, why, you have to ask him but don’t tell me it’s because OTM was wrongly accredited for some design/modification work.

According to Alan Jackson's excellent book "The British Professional Golfers 1887-1930 - A register" McKenna was employed at Lahinch from 1893 to 1899. There is no mention of Limerick, but that relationship would not surprise me because the founders of Lahinch came from the Limerick Golf Club. But I'm confused what does that have to do with the OTM? What modifications did OTM suggest at Lahinch?

Paul Daly in his interview some years ago on GCA.com actually made the opposite statement that others were being accredited for OTM work. So who is right?

In fairness Paul Daley I don't think accurately accrediting golf architects is his strength or main objective.

Lahinch was modified by OTM, certainly not a full redesign, it was not that radical. The ‘not radical’ statement is furnished by MacW and the article he printed. Yet it clearly states OTM was there, He arrived on the 29th of April 1894 and left for Dublin on the 5th of May 1894. OTM went around the course on at least two occasions making recommendations. He would not do the actual construction/modification work but expect the Club Professional would, who was McKenna. I make no claim but that OTM modified Lahinch in 1894 as confirmed by the same article MacWood stated. The real problem in that no formal report was published or apparently published on what were OTM actual suggestion. There are more reports of OTM modifying the course at Lahinch in 1894 in the Scotsman (1902) and in the book (1907) by Tullock confirming his trip to Lahinch.  OTM on his return stayed in Dublin for a few days playing a couple of matched at Dollymount with Brown and others before returning to St Andrews. Oh, yes, just for your information a few years earlier OTM was proposed for the design Dollymount, but due to the clubs finances it was done in-house.

Can we expect to see Royal Dublin on future OTM lists?

Cruden Bay, OTM was commissioned to do the work in 25th September 1894 to lay out a new course for the Great Northern Scottish Railways. This was not the 9 hole Port Erroll course which was closed in 1895 to make way for the new GNSR station complex, but their new resort. The Design was completed and according to some reports an 18 hole course was actually laid out, but was changed when the addition requirement of a 9 hole course was added, this being the St Olaf’s Course opened with the main course in 1899. The design and routing by OTM but the whole construction managed and overseen by Simpson. However, MacW with all this information states that Simpson was the designer. No comment on the fact that Simpson was local while OTM was based at St Andrews, just too obvious an explanation, and of course in the eyes of some just pure fantasy as it does not fit in with their opinions.  Reports from 1896 & 7 into 1899 advise of OTM involvement, but
again this is not good enough for some.

The design and routing of the 1899 course by OTM? What proof have you uncovered?

I for all my failings, do try to seek the truth, there are at times when we seek to join the dots and a little conjecture/speculation may allow the dots to join. But of course, that is not proof, yet that works both ways. Nevertheless, the only way to actually discover the truth and accredit all the designers involved in some of our great and smaller courses is to try to come together and work for the common good. I have tried but failed at each fence, others seem more than happy to take the piss, to try to redirect the story, stating that of course they are seeking the truth.

All your failings? You are joking?

I never though I would accept defeat, but I do so regards GCA.com and with some of its members. The truth is the first casualty and seems to matter very little to some, yet that is all we have to link our lives to past and future generations.

The Askernish web site states exactly what and how they proceeded yet the likes of Mark & Kalen on the back of MacWood, have swallowed his various statements, yet appear not to have read the web site.

MacWood, has his own opinions and states them, but does not want to adjust his viewpoint no matter what may be found. However, to be fair to him, he has maintained his position throughout even in the face of alternative evidence or explanation to the reports he publishes.  

Jim K, in most of his posts seems very bitter towards me, my opinions and his latest statement:-
“It never ceases to amaze me that the most vociferous objections to his scholarship come from people who have ulterior motives, such as books they have written, books they might be writing,  golf clubs they represent, famous relatives whose name they are trading on, etc..”    
I find this most objectionable, it shows what this site is becoming , full of lies, no consideration for others or their point of view.  The harm it is doing is unbelievable, instead of working with each other to give others a quality viewpoint we offer bickering, unfinished debates, leaving things more unresolved than before the debates were started. As for Jim’s comment, trading on famous names, I have not received one penny, not taken the courtesy of one course or freeloaded drink, food or any item nor do I live off their names.  Again, just see how low some on this site will stoop to try to make some untrue point or other, however the most telling is yet again there is no proof to back up his statement, just nasty self-centred crap from someone who should know better.

I am totally guilty of sharing as much information as I can, of providing contacts, of arranging close to 100 courtesy of the course for others and where possible of just trying to help.

I am not leaving, but have decided not to share any of my finds, which I wanted to first publish on this site. I expect the debates will go on but I wonder to what standard they will finally sink to.

Melvyn


« Last Edit: September 08, 2009, 12:05:30 AM by Tom MacWood »

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The soul of golf.......Askernish
« Reply #173 on: September 08, 2009, 05:16:51 AM »
Tom,

Thanks for that. There are a couple of pieces there that I have not seen before and certainly furthers the claim of McKenna. However, there are also a couple of things that need cleared up. I knew of McKenna's involvement at Ballybunion but that course was completely abandoned in 1906 and the club did not exist again for another six years. Completely different course.

I believe the course was abandoned in 1898, and re-established at the same site in 1906. The original links was on the property of a Mr. Hewson. The re-established course of 1906 was laid out by a Mr. Hewson. I don't know if they were the same Mr. Hewson and I don't if he restored the original course.

And having just concluded some research at Portmarnock, I would be most interested in hearing of any involvement he had there as I came across none. There were many changes over the years at Portmarnock but the only significant one I do not have a name against happened in 1908. Perhaps that was where McKenna came in. Incidentally, it is not always the lesser known man that gets buried in the records. John S.F. Morrison and probably Harry Colt had instrumental parts to play at Portmarnock, most likely being largely responsible for the high esteem the course is currently held in. Yet their names are nowhere to be seen in the records. So it works the other way too.

I would have disagree; relatively speaking John Morrison is a lesser known man. His work has been largely ignored, but I wouldn't put his involvement at Portmarnock high on his list. I'd say Cairnes would be the unsung man at Portmarmock.

Back to Lahinch - If McKenna was responsible for that original course, it still leaves us trying to work out who was responsible for those instrumental changes in the years that followed. Perhaps it was he also. Perhaps it was on OTM's recommendations. Maybe we'll never know.

What work are you referring to?

Brian, I will try and contact Martin at some point to talk about this. I'm pretty well versed on the changes since Gibson (1907) and have spent a day or two walking the links and making them work in my mind. There's some surprising stuff also (including an extensive article from The Irish Independent from 1936 stating how the links are much improved since their recent modifications i.e. mods made to the MacKenzie course). It's the changes prior that need more clarity. I'll spend some time on then when I visit again in late October.

Ally

OK Tom,

I've gone back over my notes. Ballybunion - the original course (designed by McKenna) on Lionel Hewson's land was 12 holes and abandoned in 1898. The new course was 9 holes and laid out by Lionel Hewson in 1906. Even if he used some of McKenna's original material, this is largely irrelevant. I have a map of that 1906 course and it bears absolutely no resemblance to any of the holes in play today.

Portmarnock - You can disagree as you wish but I really would be interested to know if you have more information on this than I. If you do I applaud your breadth and depth of knowledge. John Morrison made some major changes there, being responsible for the 8th, 10th and 18th holes as we know them. Your words about Guppy Cairnes are correct. He oversaw the instrumental changes to the course at 12, 13, 14 & 15 (as well as some others) that came in to play in the early 1920's. Harry Colt visited the links in 1919 and suggested 'improvements'. I have not yet 'joined the dots' in relation to this visit and the changes that were made in the few years that followed. But the likelihood that they are connected is a strong possibility, wouldn't you say?

Lahinch - As I previously mentioned, I as of yet have less information here (and certainly less than Melvyn and yourself prior to 1907 it seems). But the club maintain a course map for the original layout and then another for the Gibson layout of 1907. In the interim, there were some significant changes to the course (including the first 4 holes with Klondyke). The club say that Klondyke was put in to play in 1897 on the recommendation of OTM. Again, I'd be delighted if you could share any further info.

Ally

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The soul of golf.......Askernish
« Reply #174 on: September 08, 2009, 06:20:50 AM »
Tommy Mac

It seems clear that you choose to ignore some documents Melvyn presented and that perhaps Melvyn has done the same - though I don't think Melvyn ever excluded A Simpson from the design of Cruden Bay.  Either way, to suggest OTM had nothing to do with Cruden Bay is stretching your argument - if that is your argument.  There is still a considerable amount of architecture at Cruden Bay from the A Simpson/OTM days to not give full credit to T Simpson and tangentally Fowler.  Without definitive proof I don't know how you can determine the detailed origins of today's Cruden Bay without mentioning OTM as a serious player in the design.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield & Alnmouth,

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