When the tail wags the dog...this is not OT!!

[Kalen Braley]

Recently in an article Bill posted the author said:

Nobody’s complaining about the majesty of the grand Lady and her torch. But when the view is making the golf course, the tail is wagging the dog.

This was in response to Phil's comments on Liberty National:

"Mickelson is a Liberty National member — where 500 grand gets you in the door — and a Barclays spokesman. He’s paid to love it.

 “The second hole is a par-3 and right behind the pin is the Statue of Liberty,” Mickelson said. “It’s awesome. What a cool feel, unlike any course in the world.”


While I suspect I know what Mr. Mucci will say, what is the general consenusus of the treehouse?  Is this just tail wagging or legitimate architectual design?

Which courses do you think qualify as "Tail wagging the dog?"  And Visa versa which courses are more substance despite being accused of just being a pretty face?

Discuss...

[TEPaul]

"And Visa versa which courses are more substance despite being accused of just being a pretty face?

Discuss..."



Kalen:

Wait one damn minute here. I'll get into your subject eventually but we need to do some serious linguistic housekeeping first.

What the hell are you talking about above when you say "Visa Versa?"

Did you mean Vice Versa or are you referring to one of those damn new-fangled MBNA reverse credit/debit card things??

[Garland Bayley]

In Mr. Nicklaus's and Mr. Fazio's respective books, they each said essentially they go for the views and pretty! Mr. Cupp can see their success, and may wish for some himself.

[Anthony Gray]

"And Visa versa which courses are more substance despite being accused of just being a pretty face?

Discuss..."



Kalen:

Wait one damn minute here. I'll get into your subject eventually but we need to do some serious linguistic housekeeping first.

What the hell are you talking about above when you say "Visa Versa?"

Did you mean Vice Versa or are you referring to one of those damn new-fangled MBNA reverse credit/debit card things??

  I understood it perfectly.

  Anthony

[Garland Bayley]

...

 “The second hole is a par-3 and right behind the pin is the Statue of Liberty,” Mickelson said. “It’s awesome. What a cool feel, unlike any course in the world.”[/i]
...

Come on Kalen. Get out Google Earth and disprove Lefty.

[Jaeger Kovich]

Liberty National seems very comparable to The Castle Course at St. Andrews.

- Both are totally artificially contoured to simulate the hills/hummocks/mounding of a proper links course
- The views of both cities (NYC and St. Andrews) are the focus point of the course
- Both play along the water
- Both are overshadowed by neighboring course (Kingsbarns and Bayonne) built in the same period with roughly the same design concept

[Tom_Doak]

On such a site (with little natural stuff to work with), it would have been crazy NOT to make the Statue of Liberty a focal point on one or more holes.

That doesn't mean the hole is a great hole, or a bad hole ... just that the scenery adds to the hole.  Which is pretty much all Mickelson said, at least in the part that was quoted here. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Kalen,

Some people like to sell the "sizzle", I happen to prefer the "steak"

[Phil_the_Author]

I guess they could have put up a windmill instead... oh wait, there is one on a course over on Long Island...

[Kalen Braley]

So do we have any nominations for courses here?

I like Pats description...sizzle or steak?

So I'll put a few out there for you.

Shadow Creek?
Pebble?
Lakota Canyon?
Sutton Bay?

Sizzle or Steak?

[Tom_Doak]

Shadow Creek has some great golf holes, whatever Matt says.

Pebble Beach has a bunch of great golf holes, can't believe you asked about it.

Haven't played the other two.

[Kalen Braley]

Shadow Creek has some great golf holes, whatever Matt says.

Pebble Beach has a bunch of great golf holes, can't believe you asked about it.

Haven't played the other two.

Tom,

I was trying to generate some discussion and thought throwing out something like PB my get a few swipes....but perhaps this topic is already been talked over enough.

I guess what I'm try to put my finger on is what seperates the two. No doubt a good architect will use the views he has at his disposal but at what point is it just a pretty view on an otherwise non-interesting hole.  A few examples..

TOC #1 - Is this hole mostly just sizzle based on its location??
TOC #18 - Same question

On the other hand PB #18 is certainly steak with its playing angles...that would be a good hole anywhere IMO.
Or #12 at Pacific Grove - Sure its got a great location too, but the hole has plenty of strategy to boot.