top 10 most severe sets of greens

[Anthony Butler]

It's very apparent that there are not too many modern courses nominated for this list, other than my own.  Is there really NO ONE else building difficult greens anymore?

Tom D,

Would be correct to say most modern architects have in their mind 12+ on the stimpmeter as the correct speed for their greens? If that's true, that imposes a limiting factor on what they deem as appropriate amount of slope. The ODG, even if they had stimpmeters, could most likely not even conceive their greens would one day roll at that speed. Perhaps you have a different thought in your head.

BTW-I'd nominate Pinehurst #2 as being a confounding set of greens. Every time I walk off #18, I feel I have a case of vertigo.
It's like standing on the hood of a VW Beetle with a putter in your hand.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Sean,
The Old Course would certainly be in my top ten for"severe:" greens
I think Tom brought up a great point...severe versus goofy...
what is the dividing line?

sometimes speed alone can tip the balance one way or the other and make the srchitect look like he was smoking crack!

I would be interested to read any comments from architects out there on where they feel the line into goofydom may have been crossed....but understand if they are reluctant to do so...

For wahat it is worth there are about three greens at Cuscowilla that in my opinion cross the line...sorry dont remember the hole numbers.
Of course that could be because I done know the course well enough to strategise around the greens...but they did seem rather silly.

[Dan Dingman]

The set of greens at Grosse Ile certainly deserve to be listed. As the Superintendent, I am constantly questioned on pin locations. I always ask where the golfer was putting from. This is important information in deciding whether or not the hole location is fair. As with most Ross greens, Above the hole is death!

Setting yourself up in the right spot of the fairway to approach the green is key at Grosse Ile, as with most courses with severe surfaces.

The tenth green at Grosse Ile is one of the most severe surfaces I have seen.

Others:

Oakland Hills
Crystal Downs
NGLA
Meadowbrook - MI
Engineers
Winged Foot E&W

DD

[Kalen Braley]

Sean,
The Old Course would certainly be in my top ten for"severe:" greens
I think Tom brought up a great point...severe versus goofy...
what is the dividing line?

sometimes speed alone can tip the balance one way or the other and make the srchitect look like he was smoking crack!

I would be interested to read any comments from architects out there on where they feel the line into goofydom may have been crossed....but understand if they are reluctant to do so...

For wahat it is worth there are about three greens at Cuscowilla that in my opinion cross the line...sorry dont remember the hole numbers.
Of course that could be because I done know the course well enough to strategise around the greens...but they did seem rather silly.

Micheal,

You pretty much hit the button on the head with this last one.  I'd bet dollars to donuts whats one considers severe as opposed to goofy, and visa versa, is mostly in the eye of the beholder.  The closest category that relates to this is quirk.

For many on here, some quirk is good, most not loved, especially "modern" quirk.  Some severe greens are loved, but alot of modern severe greens are labeled "goofy".  But thru the eyes of this beholder, I like it all.  Quirk in all its forums, severe greens in all thier forms....just as long as thier is at least a halfway reasonable way to play the ball and get it in the hole.

All that being said , I guess this makes me a "big world theory" guy as I accept the challenge of an Engh green or anyone else who is building severe and challenging greens.  At the end of the day, its all good fun and I look forward to playing all types!!

[Jerry Kluger]

The most severe greens I have seen were at Dismal River - some were just over the top with some hole locations allowing you only 10 degrees within the green from which to putt.  Another Nicklaus course, North Palm Beach CC which is a muni and has some huge contours which the locals have found to be too severe.

Personally, I just came back from Ballyneal and I would not consider the greens to be severe - yes, they do have some very significant contours but the most severe contours are there on holes where you are taking a risk that must take into consideration the green contours.

[Sean_A]

The set of greens at Grosse Ile certainly deserve to be listed. As the Superintendent, I am constantly questioned on pin locations. I always ask where the golfer was putting from. This is important information in deciding whether or not the hole location is fair. As with most Ross greens, Above the hole is death!

Setting yourself up in the right spot of the fairway to approach the green is key at Grosse Ile, as with most courses with severe surfaces.

The tenth green at Grosse Ile is one of the most severe surfaces I have seen.

Others:

Oakland Hills
Crystal Downs
NGLA
Meadowbrook - MI
Engineers
Winged Foot E&W

DD

Dan

Grosse Ile's greens aren't too bad if you stay below the hole.  Even pin high is a killer on many greens.  That said, rolling 11 on the stimp would make those greens very harsh.  I know they used to get the greens flying many years ago, but in my recent visits they had thankfully slowed them down - is this still the case?  Other than 10, which is nasty wicked if the hole is down front, 5 and 13 can be brutal.  I don't know how many times I watched guys putt into the rocks on 13.  Before they lifted the front of 9 it was much harsher, akin to 10.  Other greens which are ferocious if caught in the wrong spot are 14 and 17.  I watched an English mate of mine putt off 14 and end up down the valley with a 40 yard chip.  I tried to tell him to take the putt way left coming across the green from the right, but he swore it would turn left, not right.  What a goof.   

All that said, two of my favourite greens are 7 and 16.  Both are far more severe than they look especially 16.  It is great to watch guys at the front of the green, just getting used to keeping the ball between themselves and the hole, give the ball a whack and watch it zoom 15 feet past the hole - this is a very clever green indeed.   

For sure, Grosse Ile has one of he best sets of greens I have seen, as good if not better than a great many of the big guns.  Take good care of them eh!

Ciao

[Tim Gavrich]

Do tell, Tim. Was 11 one of them?

Tom--

The 11th had one of the more subtly contoured greens on the course, but it was still challenging enough for me.  I consider myself to be a pretty decent reader of greens, and I overplayed the break on my 30 footer by about a foot on that hole.

On the 13th, my partner had a 12 foot putt that we both agreed was a right-edge putt.  He rolled it on his line and the ball missed 8 inches to the right.  Maddening.

[Bill Brightly]

Can't count mountain ridge until they re-build the 18th, it is unputtable

Bill,

What's the title of this thread ?  ?  ?

I agree with what Tom D wrote:

I guess a lot of the question hinges on how you define "severe," as David Kelly pointed out earlier.  I have no interest in nominating a list of severe courses that are stupid to play, so I was sticking with Adam's criteria:  "difficult and interesting" to me means greens that are very challenging to read and to putt and for short game play, but at a scale conducive to good golf. 



So since I think the 18th at MR is stupid, I take the course off my list.

[Dan Dingman]

Sean - We try to have a daily speed around 10 - 10.5. This is some cases can be too fast, especially with our goal of keeping them as firm as possible. The membership prefers the speed to be as fast as possible, which IMO takes some of the fun out of putting them.

The greens at Grosse Ile are all exciting. As you stated, as a set, they can arguably be as good as there is. We have been expanding them out slowly since I got here, which has added some interesting pin locations in the corners. Our efforts have been well received by the membership. Discussion of rebuilding #13 comes up occasionally, as the right side is unavailable for hole locations. I use a separate mower that is set a little higher and only roll the green when needed. This has worked well as the slope of #13 alone keeps the surface consistent with the others.

Great point about #16. That green has a lot of hidden movement in it where the others are very obvious. I love how Ross gives you a 240 yrd par three in #18 with the flattest green on the course.

My favorite green is #7. Wonderful contour and really fun to pick hole locations for the #1 handicap hole. Another favorite is #1. The green does a fine job of welcoming you to Grosse Ile!

DD

[Dean DiBerardino]

I think Pinehurst #2 is by far the toughest that I have played. Pinehurst #8 was pretty challenging too!

Morgan

Is that down to the greens, surrounds or combination of both?  I don't think putting on them is terribly severe - once you are on the green!

Ciao

Morgan:

Of the courses in the Pinehurst area, I've always thought that the greens at The National Golf Club (formerly Pinehurst National) were the most severe.  Have you had the chance to play there?


Sean:

I agree about the greens on No. 2.  The greens alone are much less severe than the combnation of the greens plus the surrounds.


Dean

[Kalen Braley]

FWIW,

While I absolutly love them and wouldn't change a thing, I've heard a few comments from a couple of GCA'ers who will remain nameless that some of the greens found at Pasatiempo are asburd when mowed at high speeds.

Once again....its all an "eye of the beholder" thing isn't it?

[Tom_Doak]

Tom D,

Would be correct to say most modern architects have in their mind 12+ on the stimpmeter as the correct speed for their greens? If that's true, that imposes a limiting factor on what they deem as appropriate amount of slope. The ODG, even if they had stimpmeters, could most likely not even conceive their greens would one day roll at that speed. Perhaps you have a different thought in your head.

BTW-I'd nominate Pinehurst #2 as being a confounding set of greens. Every time I walk off #18, I feel I have a case of vertigo.
It's like standing on the hood of a VW Beetle with a putter in your hand.

Anthony:

I would never agree that 12+ is the "correct" speed for greens, on any course.  I think anything over 10.5 to 11 is overkill, maybe okay for a three-day member-guest or club championship but NOT for day to day conditions.

But I think it's fair to say that most modern architects look at 12+ as being a speed which might happen on their greens, so they are forced to design flatter greens with that speed in mind.  That's why most of the courses we are talking about are older courses whose designers (Ross, MacKenzie, et al.) NEVER envisioned 12+ as a possibility. 

Only a crazy kid like me would ever design such severe greens in full understanding of modern green speeds.  Then again, it was much easier for me to be careless about it on my earlier courses than it is today, when I'm dealing with clients who actually DO have the wherewithal and the connections to host a professional event.  Back when I was building High Pointe, there was just no way it would ever make sense for them to get their greens really fast, so I could build in a lot of contour without fear.  Nowadays, I have to keep the possibility of 12+ in mind; BUT at least my clients are the kind of people who have played Oakmont and Augusta and understand what severe greens are all about.  [There was some discussion about Rock Creek and some of the players thinking the greens are too severe, but hell, Mr. Foley has been a non-resident member of Oakmont for 20 years, and Rock Creek is not severe compared to THAT.]

[David_Madison]

Charlotte CC's greens are pretty amazing, with a few 3'+ fall-offs to back or side pods where if you land on the downslopes your ball will be propelled a long way. Alpine in NJ belongs on any list of severe greens, as it has an intense set of lightning fast sloped greens.

[Richard Choi]

Out of all the courses I have played, I would rate them in this order for having the greatest amount of movement in the greens:

1. Plainfield
2. Ballyneal
3. Chambers Bay

I don't think I have seen any green as ridiculous AND FUN(!!!) as the green on Plainfield's par 3, No 11. I can't wait to hear all the bitchin' and moanin' from the pros when they play it.

[henrye]

Haven't been there in a few years, but I think I remember some of the Sawgrass greens having some real undulation.

[Jaeger Kovich]

As already mentioned... The Castle Course is #1 for the courses I have played.

Stanwich, CT - big contours and always rolling fast (just heard they are replacing all 18 this year)
Baltusrol Upper, NJ - they say everything breaks away from the mountain, but when you know which way its going and its still 3-putt city!
                     (haven't played the lower, but more severe internal contour then WF, QR, Ridgewood, Fenway)
Others stick out: Old Mac, B Trails, and Winged Foot East/Carnoustie (may have been the 2 hardest courses I have ever played from just off the green)

[Patrick_Mucci]

Fenway and Mountain Ridge should be added to the top 10

Pat, I've only played it once, but you have a seconding nomination on Fenway, albeit a necessarily meek one.  They're not wildly contoured, but they're both beautifully and frustratingly confounding.

Shivas,

They may not be wildly contoured, but, they have a good deal of contour in them, and some are wildly contoured, like # 3 and # 5.

Bill Brightly,

If you stay below the hole, and it's very difficult to get above the hole on your approach, putting is not as challlenging as you indicate.
The club and the superintendent like firm and fast conditions.
If you haven't figured out that you need to be below the hole by the 5th hole ( 1st hole for keen observers), you probably won't figure it out by the 18th.

My last round was a drive, 3-iron 25 feet below the hole, two putt = par.
You have to err on the short side, but, that's universal.

Wait until you see the results of the green reclamation program.

Some truely incredible hole locations have been recaptured, on almost every hole.

The USGA Senior Amateur is being hosted there in 2012.

It's a wonderful course with wide fairways and incredible interesting putting surfaces and surrounds.

[Carl Rogers]

Tom said
"... Only a crazy kid like me would ever design such severe greens in full understanding of modern green speeds.  Then again, it was much easier for me to be careless about it on my earlier courses than it is today, when I'm dealing with clients who actually DO have the wherewithal and the connections to host a professional event.  Back when I was building High Pointe, there was just no way it would ever make sense for them to get their greens really fast, so I could build in a lot of contour without fear.  Nowadays, I have to keep the possibility of 12+ in mind; BUT at least my clients are the kind of people who have played Oakmont and Augusta and understand what severe greens are all about. ..."

Tom, At time you were doing Riverfront, do I assume that you assumed that there would never be a "big" event ever held there and thus no worry about highly contoured greens?

[Bill Brightly]

Pat,

I know Mountain Ridge very well and think it is an excellent course, held back from greatness by the 18th green. Yes, there are pinnable loactions in the back half of the green, but it seems almost every time I play it the pin is in the front middle, and IMO, that is an unpinnable location. You either putt it in the hole or it rolls off the green, and I dont care what direction you miss from!

[Carl Nichols]

I wish I had known that Rolling Rock has interesting/severe greens -- I was just up in that neck of the woods and would've made an effort to play R.R.!  Is it a good course otherwise?

[Chris DeNigris]

I only played Riverfront once...but it's the only course I can remember leaving thinking that the greens might be too severe...I usually like them contoured and fun- Kingley's were a blast- but Riverfront knocked me silly.

Wonder if the contrast between a very flat course- Suffolk VA, not too many hills- and wildly contoured greens makes them seem even wilder?

Tom- How do Riverfront's greens stack up against your others?

[Ed Oden]

Charlotte CC's greens are pretty amazing, with a few 3'+ fall-offs to back or side pods where if you land on the downslopes your ball will be propelled a long way.

David, good call on CCC.  Some very dramatic contours.   But, generally, green speeds are kept in check.  So they are typically difficult without being absurd.  It will be interesting to see how they hold up in next year's women's Am.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bill (hands of stone) Brightly.

Front locations and mid green locations are only difficult if you get above 4 and 8 o'clock when the greens are at pace.

If you hit your approach or recovery above those markers you deserve to be punished.

I'm not saying that the green isn't a little too severe, I'm just saying that you have to approach it with caution, just like you do on a good number of holes.

[Tom_Doak]

Carl:

I never worried about any of my courses hosting a big tournament until we were building Cape Kidnappers.  Julian clearly had the money to host whatever he wanted.

Some of those earlier courses HAVE hosted events ... the Curtis Cup at Pacific Dunes, and the Philadelphia Open and Amateur at Stonewall, among others.  All of those events worked out fine, because they respected the contours and did not get the greens ridiculously fast.

In reality, hosting a tournament is not usually a problem ... all you need is 4-6 different hole locations on each green which work at the highest speeds.  The problem comes when you want to have "tournament" green speeds on an EVERYDAY basis, as some clubs insist now.  In that case, the greens almost have to be flat and lifeless, or it's only a matter of time before you've got agronomic problems from the combination of stressed-out turf and concentrated traffic.

[tlavin]

Just played Prairie Dunes with Bill and Brian Doyle Murray.  After having yet another shot repelled by another false front, I exclaimed: "This course has more false fronts than..."  Brian filled in the blank: "than a Hooters Girls Swimsuit Competition".

Very severe, very fun. If they run over 11, I'd guess they'd be unputtable at times.