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Charlie Goerges

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The Wilderness Club - Eureka, Montana (Photo Tour)
« on: August 26, 2009, 04:19:33 PM »


I recently had the pleasure of playing at The Wilderness Club in Eureka, Montana. It is a new course by Nick Faldo and Schmidt/Curley Design (a Faldo Signature course). There were many luminaries there including our own Jeff Doerr and his son Tim, Lee Schmidt, Brian Curley, many of the SC gang, Travelin’ Joe Passov, and last but not least, His Highness The Emperor of La Habra.

The course was a lot of fun to play, it sits at about 2500-3000 feet and is surrounded by mountains, national parks and forests. It plays to 7207 yards from the tips, but we usually played up a set of tees which were at about 6500 yards. We had a bunch of different kinds of weather from hail to thunderstorms to snow (only on the surrounding mountains) to bright sunshine, though we were informed that summers are usually pretty dry and warm in the area.

The course is built on about 200 feet of pure sand which was USGA spec so the sand was used for the construction of the USGA greens as well as in all the bunkers. It had a nice shade of gray and was quite firm. It was a joy to play out of such firm sand (I don’t know what you fluffy-sand guys are thinking).

The Bluegrass fairways were maintained relatively firm and the ground game was an option (and I frequently took advantage of it). The bent greens were smooth and fast, but not too fast.

Many of the greens displayed a feature we’re calling “reverse swales”. Perhaps there is another name for them. They are basically swales that carry up into the putting surfaces and if you’re in or around one affect the putt in strange ways. You could have to line up your putt in the opposite direction of the overall break of the green to counteract the swale’s effect at the start of the putt. There were also several greens which sloped from front to back.

I had never played a course with such quantities of that long fescue off to the sides of play. Unfortunately I was fairly successful in my first couple of attempts to play out of it. I say that because it led to one of my more interesting holes. Here is my sequence for holes 10-18 on Saturday morning: par, bogey, par, par, quintuple bogey, par, par, par, bogey.

(images courtesy of Tommy, Jeff, and moi)


Yardages
7207 74.2/146
6550 71.2/136
6119 66.7/118
5431 Women's 70.8/131




Range:








Front 9:






Hole 1: (Notwithstanding the lack of photos, this was an enjoyable hole. The yardage guide does not give a proper idea of the amount of drop from the tee to the landing area, nor of the rise from the fairway to the green.)











Hole 2: (A really nice looking hole where you are rewarded with a 20+ yard distance advantage on your approach if you can turn the ball over.)






































 Hole 3: (A reachable par 5 where the weaker player can tack further to the left to avoid the single large waste area. But there is still some fun/challenge in it for the weaker player because of the optical illusion on the second shot that there are several distinct bunkers to avoid and the semi-hidden landing area.)











































Hole 4: (My favorite hole on the course. Tommy said it displayed a lot of the strategy and thinking of A.W. Tillinghast. This dogleg to the right with a fallaway fairway rewards being able to move the ball with a better angle/look into the hole. It also features one of the wildest greens on the course with a back-right section which is 5-6 feet lower than the rest of the green. We determined that we’d like to see the that back section made a bit easier as far as keeping the ball on the green from over or above the hole there.)

































Hole 5: (Probably my least favorite hole on the course, it’s certainly built over the least interesting ground. Basic short par 3 with a man-made pond.)


















Hole 6: (A short/medium par 4 with a ton of room to the right, but the bunkers left have the effect of drawing you in to hit that direction.)


















Hole 7: (This par 3 played really long some days. Most days we were on what is shown as an unused box in the image below. It would play 190 to the very front edge and a pin in the back right would approach 250 yards away. When Tommy saw this hole he said “Hirono”.)













Hole 8: (A par 5 where you are often deceived into playing farther left than you really need to.)


















Hole 9: (A very beautiful hole with a lot of drop from the landing area to the green. The pictures tell it better than I could.)
















































Back 9:






Hole 10: (A fun hole where you could hit from 6-iron to driver off the tee. I found that laying back gave you a much worse angle into the green and really brought the water into play. I played it every time by blasting the driver toward the bunker and then playing sidways to the green. This took away all the danger. But was no guarantee of a birdie or par because of the huge breaks in the green. If you have the distance to drive the green, the right-hand side will accept a driver shot.)











































Hole 11: (A nice dogleg hole that rewards playing the riskier shot off the tee with an easier second shot.)























Hole 12: (A longish downhill par 5 where the monstrously long hitters can gain a huge turbo-boost off the tee. The last time I played it I hit 5-iron, 5-iron, 5-iron, though and just missed my birdie so it needn’t be too difficult.)

































Hole 13: (Shortish par 3 that has some nice helping green contours to move the ball back to the right.)




























Hole 14: (Long par 4, not overly interesting except that it’s across the road from a beekeeper so you see a lot of honeybees when playing. They never gave us any trouble.)




























Hole 15: (Medium-length par 4 with a deep green that is quite steep.)























Hole 16: (Fun medium par 4 with the “hanging tree” that can serve as a target. I tended to play out toward the bunker on the right.)




























Hole 17: (Cool medium par 3 with a super green. There is a huge hogs’ back running through it that filters all but the best shots toward the right hand edge of the green. If you have the guts and accuracy to take it at the left half of the green, you stood a good chance of knocking it close because that side had a bowl-effect to it.)























Hole 18: (Longish par 5 requiring a decent tee shot. The green slopes from front to back.)
































« Last Edit: August 28, 2009, 12:11:32 AM by Charlie Goerges »
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Michael Dugger

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Re: The Wilderness Club - Eureka, Montana (Photo Tour)
« Reply #1 on: August 26, 2009, 04:40:36 PM »
I'm impressed.  Looks fab...
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Rob Rigg

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Re: The Wilderness Club - Eureka, Montana (Photo Tour)
« Reply #2 on: August 26, 2009, 04:57:19 PM »
Great pics - Thanks for sharing.

The rolling terrain looks really cool and it seems like there are a bunch of fun holes/greens.

Looks like it could be a tough walk with a few longish green to tee transfers? Or no?

Charlie Goerges

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Re: The Wilderness Club - Eureka, Montana (Photo Tour)
« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2009, 05:35:21 PM »
Rob,

Only a couple of long transfers like from 13-14 or from 3-4 or 9-10. But the steep uphill walks from 10-11 or 12-13 are just as bad. Incidentally the proshop guys said only 1 person they were aware of has walked. They also got rid of their fleet of pullcarts because noone ever used them.

Attached is an approximation of the whole routing.
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Jeff Doerr

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Re: The Wilderness Club - Eureka, Montana (Photo Tour)
« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2009, 08:51:53 PM »
The Faldo / Schmidt Curley crew did a very nice job on the course. My only negative was the walking aspect. On the plus side the carts were top notch. I also liked the cart paths for from green to tee and then none in he playing areas. Conditions were perfect and a tribute to the team and the super. The only challenge on conditions were the few areas where fairway/rough watering made the native too thick - pretty easy problem to fix. Really a delight to play and each hole was memorable and unique.

The musical gathering with Brian Curley on guitar with Frankie (accordian) and his nephew (acoustic bass) was amazing. Tim from the resort broke out his case of harmonicas and the jam was on...

Hardy, Lona, Ruffin, Brady, Melissa and ALL at WC were better than can be described.

Their generations concept for membership is also a very cool concept.

http://www.thewildernessclub.com/recreation/index.php

The course flyovers are interesting, but I like our pics better!  ;D
« Last Edit: August 26, 2009, 08:55:26 PM by Jeff Doerr »
"And so," (concluded the Oldest Member), "you see that golf can be of
the greatest practical assistance to a man in Life's struggle.”

Jeff Doerr

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Re: The Wilderness Club - Eureka, Montana (Photo Tour)
« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2009, 09:09:44 PM »
A couple greens of note:

4 - Obvious in the pics. The right portion may be a bit severe to hold. My son pulled his approach an was upset. I yelled over - "Wait! Just wait!" I saw wha could happen. The ball came in low left at the front of the green rolled to theback left edge and I was yelling "Take the slope!" It slowly backed down the hill and I kept on yelling......finally it creeped over the edge and my son was left with an uphill 10 foot putt for par - which he made. Maybe the most memorable shot of the trip.

6 - Did not get a good pic. Big flat tilted green in the shape of an apple or heart. The right to left tilt and the big crease in the back were simple but effective.

11 - Even caught GCA Lee Schmidt by surprise as he putted a 20 footer about 20 feet past and off he green.

13 - another simple green with a very cool side swale. Hit too far too the safe side and the up and down is not a gimme.

17 - had a very cool old-style 90 degree edge in the back. great pin positions available.


"And so," (concluded the Oldest Member), "you see that golf can be of
the greatest practical assistance to a man in Life's struggle.”

Emil Weber

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Re: The Wilderness Club - Eureka, Montana (Photo Tour)
« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2009, 03:42:55 AM »
That looks very good, Charlie. Is it a resort course? public? private?

Charlie Goerges

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Re: The Wilderness Club - Eureka, Montana (Photo Tour)
« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2009, 09:41:46 AM »
That looks very good, Charlie. Is it a resort course? public? private?

Sorry, I guess I forgot to mention that in the original post  :-[.

It is a private course but I suspect that since it is early on in its existence that one could go through channels to get a chance at playing it. I think that only those who buy a lot on the development side of things will have access to a membership, but I don't know for sure.

One think I do want to mention is that they have an interesting membership offer. Their first hundred members will get what they are calling a family legacy membership. It just means that six generations of family can play on that membership and there will always be only one set of dues. So if an old guy buys a membership then everyone down through his great great great grand children can play on the membership. Or if someone my age bought one, my grandparents down through my great grand children could play on it.
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

cary lichtenstein

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Re: The Wilderness Club - Eureka, Montana (Photo Tour)
« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2009, 10:11:20 AM »
thanks for sharing, looks really really nice
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Garland Bayley

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Re: The Wilderness Club - Eureka, Montana (Photo Tour)
« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2009, 11:40:05 AM »
I think Jeff has Tim in training to be the next John Mayhugh.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

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Re: The Wilderness Club - Eureka, Montana (Photo Tour)
« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2009, 03:42:32 PM »
Looks like just the place for bunker sluts.



 ;D

I confess, I have never seen a top shot bunker like that one!
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Mike Hendren

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Re: The Wilderness Club - Eureka, Montana (Photo Tour)
« Reply #11 on: August 27, 2009, 05:55:40 PM »
Lovin' me some of this drop-down tier and can't fathom why this feature isn't more frequently used:



Bogey

Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Kalen Braley

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Re: The Wilderness Club - Eureka, Montana (Photo Tour)
« Reply #12 on: August 27, 2009, 07:04:51 PM »
Lovin' me some of this drop-down tier and can't fathom why this feature isn't more frequently used:



Bogey



Bogey,

Jim Engh uses it a lot..

Too bad his greens aren't any good!!   ::)  ::)  ::)

Brian Curley

Re: The Wilderness Club - Eureka, Montana (Photo Tour)
« Reply #13 on: August 27, 2009, 10:10:08 PM »
Good time for this to pop up as I just today got home from back surgery........A lot of downtime ahead.

First I want to stress that this is a Faldo Signature and that Nick is not a consultant to us. Those in the business understand the nuances with branding.......

The other is that I failed to get the point across that the clubhouse is temporary with the permanent one set above 9 and 18 (reducing what seems like a  too long connection). They built one of the future cabins and retrofitted it to function as a clubhouse while things get rolling. Being a golf community, we have a couple of road connections but not severe.

Otherwise Nick and I  are very happy with the course- it really is on 200 foot of sand and we did mine our USGA quality sand from the property. We easily could have gone for a Sand Hills look and been more rugged but the client wanted something much more manicured. The look we have was quite a push from what they wanted and I felt like we pushed the envelope as much as possible with a combination of clean and transitional edges. With the course in its last stages of grow-in, I think it was the right choice given the family membership they desire. I agree with  the comments on tall grasses and much of my punchlist deals with mowing down native areas- I would prefer to have zero lost ball issues unless you are severely off-line.


Charlie Goerges

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Re: The Wilderness Club - Eureka, Montana (Photo Tour)
« Reply #14 on: August 28, 2009, 12:09:57 AM »
Brian, thanks for chiming in on this. I'll edit the original post to reflect that it is a Faldo Signature course.

I have a couple of comments and questions, I hope you don't mind.

First, I'd hate to see you get rid of too much of the fescue/native. Most of it is nice and sparse and playable. When I took the quintuple bogey, I actually found the ball, tried to play it twice and lost it on my third shot. If I had taken an unplayable right off the bat I'd probably have made a double. (I can also blame part of it on being up until 3am and that last scotch)

Second, I liked the use of greens which sloped front to back. I felt like those greens do a good job of leveling the playing field for the shorter hitters like me. It helps to negate the longer hitters' advantage of always having a shorter club into the green.



The greens were incredibly smooth and I thought they were the perfect speed for the contours. Are there any concerns about the club getting the speeds up too much and making the greens really difficult?

Any chance of the fourth green getting "amended" so that it's a bit easier to keep a ball on there from the top tier or from behind the green? Not too much though, the difficulty makes the hole fun.


p.s. here's to a speedy recovery!
« Last Edit: August 28, 2009, 12:12:36 AM by Charlie Goerges »
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Brian Curley

Re: The Wilderness Club - Eureka, Montana (Photo Tour)
« Reply #15 on: August 28, 2009, 11:46:09 AM »
Charlie- The intention is to save the native, just not so thick at times. It is the typical case in overspray situations where the native next to turf grasses gets too much water. You are better off missing fairways by 30 feet than three. Larry intends to burn many of the areas prior to opening next spring.

As for greens, I agree on the  leveling the field comment , especially at 18. I think it is important to note that while some greens fall away at times, they always drain at a 45 degree angle off the back lobe so your ball will not run off the back but come to rest, usually as a "feeder" slope.

I think the green speeds are fine and, yes, 4 may need a little adjustment. It was during one of Nick's visits that we decided to push the limits on that one. Might have hit the gas a bit to hard!

David Stamm

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Re: The Wilderness Club - Eureka, Montana (Photo Tour)
« Reply #16 on: August 29, 2009, 10:43:20 AM »
Tommy asked me to post this for him:



The Wilderness Club is without doubt, one of the more really scenic, beautiful courses in America that doesn't rely on a body of water or sand dunes to emphasize its greatness. O.K. Maybe Glacier National Park is right there to enhance in terms of a beautiful features! (which the course is located near)

This undoubtedly is Brian Curley & Lee Schmidt's finest course I've played to date. Count me as a fan. It simply works.

I've said this since the day I played one of their least known "better" courses, La Quinta's Citrus course which seemingly was a Dye signature, done through Landmark, like most of their courses, you usually want to walk from the 18th green, right back to the 1st tee. In Pat Mucci-terms, this is an immanent sign of Greatness. He is right about that and The Wilderness Club is all of that and more.

"Honest" Abe Lincoln had a saying, "You can please some of the people some of the time, all of the people some of the time, some of the people all of the time, but you can never please all of the people all of the time." However, "The Dynamic Duo" from Scottsdale seem to prove Honest Abe wrong. They seemingly design for all forms of golfers. "We" golf architecture students can pick and grind on anything and in some cases even take it to an extreme--and it pretty much fits us. There is absoutely nothing wrong with that. But there is a great big world out there and a design like The Wilderness Club seems to appeal to all forms of golfer, even us. Run, don't walk! Flap those wings hard! Just get up to Northwest Montana.

After a superb and strategically simple opener (which S&C seem to have no trouble building really good opening holes) the fun really starts at the really enjoyable and reachable 3rd which is enough to sucker you in and make you realize that a play from the sand is doable and not that bad of penalty, I'm still thinking of the varied ways to play the hole to avoid the two different x's I had to mark on my scorecard to avoid slowing down my playing partners in the times I played it but I can't hardly wait for another go, its that much fun. Then comes the 4th and its a really good golf hole that with an eventual small tweak of the rear drop-off portion of the green will be phenomenal in its challenge as it is in it's beautiful setting.

The mid-length par 3, 5th which was obviously to appease the common man with a "Give them the one-shot water hole they so always desire" attitude, and for some its going to be just a so-so hole. But its strength comes from its putting contours. In the three rounds I played it, all of my accompanying partners had their putters in their hands while walking off of the tee. No one came with-in 15 feet of the pin. (for that hole location) We all walked off of the green with par, with the exception of one, who had a birdie; a miracle putt of some 18 feet that looked like it would have gone 8 feet past if it had it not hit the hole. It's one of those types that will bloody your lip if your on your way to a good score, and you won't see it coming. Even more the course starts to get some teeth right after this. The 5th hole had me thinking of a personal favorite--the 6th at Friar's Head. Certainly there was some amount of inspiration in that layout, but these are two different animals.

But enter the scene comes the daunting 6th, one of the strongest, if not the strongest Par 3's I've played from this duo. It will have you thinking of shaky knees and thinking "what ifs?" while standing on its teeing ground. The hole has one conjuring-up feelings from Pine Valley's 5th, and much like the 5th at Shadow Creek which has one thinking similar thoughts when stepping on to that tee but plays nothing like it. These are holes unto themselves are really good golf holes The very essence of what a one-shot hole should be about at least once during the round. I do think its the very key to a GREAT par 3; dazzlingly beautiful, haunting, instills a good amount of fear. You want more!

This type of stuff keeps on occurring and continues throughout the round till the brute, and I mean brute of holes that lay ahead: the 14th, 15th & 16th; three(3) two-shot holes in a row, one of the most interesting green complexes makes its appearance at the 17th, a one-shot hole that one could nit pick and say that is not varied enough in length. Just try to think its a push-over, I dare you! You'll find yourself falling off of the right and rear green slope!

While the Par 5, 18th hole may be Schmidt & Curley's best closing hole to date, the par 5's are all of great variety. But the real jewels of this Montana "Wilderness" is the variety and strength of the two-shot holes. Some of them as majestic as the very scene which they live in. If anyone tells you that this course isn't walkable, don't believe them. There is one rather hill walk between holes #10 & 11 but is more then doable and by the time your rolling down the fairway of #12, you will be refreshed enough to make it up the smaller hill and short hike to the 13th. Then again, someone might not want to argue with altitude! (around 2,700' I believe)

Suddenly there is a break in the dark pillowed formations laying low in the sky; the sun peaks through and the mountains play stage for the shadows of those magnificent clouds. You feel at one with the very nature that got you here to begin with. The Wilderness Club is one of those kinds of places. You really start to think how special your life is while being eternally grateful for the gift of just being there playing this great course.

But then again, Montana is fabulous for that.

Think about this: the course is set on vein of glacial sand that is 200' deep. When I arrived to Eureka on Friday, Mother Nature unloaded its tears on us and it didn't stop until we were on our way back to our lodging way late that night. The next morning the course didn't show one sign of evidence of any rain what-so-ever! There is something about that sand and its dark and very grainy too, but once in one of the many "Billy Bell" style bunkers, you'll find that it is incredibly playable and even better, its all mined right from there!

for all of you that should be so fortunate to experience the Wilderness Club, you will not regret the time it takes to get there. Mostly all of it is waiting because of planes, but its only 45 minutes from the airport in Kalispell. Its worth every minute, every hour of layover to get there.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Jeff Doerr

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Re: The Wilderness Club - Eureka, Montana (Photo Tour)
« Reply #17 on: August 29, 2009, 12:58:22 PM »
Tommy's 6th comments are really the 7th. It's a great long three with plenty of room left and long, but then you negotiate the various slopes which most often would be falling away from you. A visually scary hole, but with great bailouts and intrigue throughout.



"And so," (concluded the Oldest Member), "you see that golf can be of
the greatest practical assistance to a man in Life's struggle.”

Craig Sweet

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Re: The Wilderness Club - Eureka, Montana (Photo Tour)
« Reply #18 on: August 29, 2009, 01:24:12 PM »
The 7th reminds me of the par 3 third hole at Canyon River (another Schmidt/Curley design)....both are visually scary.
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

Garland Bayley

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Re: The Wilderness Club - Eureka, Montana (Photo Tour)
« Reply #19 on: August 30, 2009, 12:09:03 PM »
... "We" golf architecture students can pick and grind on anything and in some cases even take it to an extreme--and it pretty much fits us. There is absoutely nothing wrong with that. But there is a great big world out there and a design like The Wilderness Club seems to appeal to all forms of golfer, even us. ...

Sorry Tommy, but "we" golf architecture students that also belong to TheWalkingGolfer.com will not be packing up and heading to The Wilderness Club given the dismal prospects for golf high-lighted by this thread. What it is seems we see here is that anyone can build dramatic holes if they depend on the golf cart to transport you from one to the next, or as is often the case from down on one to up on the next.

Unless they change the name of this site to CartBallClubAtlas.com, I would suggest you won't see a lot of people jumping on the Curley/Schmidt bandwagon here.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Charlie Goerges

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Re: The Wilderness Club - Eureka, Montana (Photo Tour)
« Reply #20 on: August 30, 2009, 01:20:23 PM »
Garland,

Let me say that I may have overstated the anti-walking angle a bit. The story is true that they have no pull carts, and that only 1 person has walked (as far as I know), but that may have more to do with the folks who are playing and looking at buying a place there than with the golf course.

As far as the long transfers, Brian mostly addressed those, but the only really tough uphill walk is 10 to 11. Having only one of those in a round is not the end of the world as far as walking is concerned. And if one is using a push/pull cart, walking the course wouldn't be too bad I think.

For walkability it's no comparison to a much more compact and flat course, but for where it is, it does a pretty good job.
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Garland Bayley

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Re: The Wilderness Club - Eureka, Montana (Photo Tour)
« Reply #21 on: August 30, 2009, 03:40:06 PM »
Charlie,

I have played with Jeff, and he has issues with the walkability. That's good enough for me.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Craig Sweet

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Re: The Wilderness Club - Eureka, Montana (Photo Tour)
« Reply #22 on: August 30, 2009, 10:05:44 PM »
Looking at the photo's it looks like a tough walk....I will say this, the only Schmidt/ Curley course I have played, Canyon River, is a tough walk...only one serious up and down, but some huge distances between greens and tees...
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

Derek Dirksen

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Re: The Wilderness Club - Eureka, Montana (Photo Tour)
« Reply #23 on: August 31, 2009, 08:54:01 AM »
The course looks like it flows with the land very well.  The greens complexes look very interesting.  Nice job.