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Jay Flemma

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White Bear Yacht Club - White Bear Lake, MN
« on: August 25, 2009, 07:06:46 PM »
From my Cybergolf article:

The Best - White Bear Yacht Club

Surprise! Despite the major tournament pedigree and more famous reputation of the other clubs, White Bear Yacht Club is my favorite of the four, (WBYC, Interlachen, Minikahda, HazNat).

Founded in 1889 and featuring a cunning Donald Ross design, nearly every hole is memorable. Although short, the rolling terrain and insidious greens (that get tougher as the round progresses) defend par admirably. Fairways are generously wide, so the out-of-bounds on several holes only affect shots that are grotesquely off-line.

There are five par-5s and five par-3s, three of each on the front. The course crosses Dellwood Road in two dangerous places. I say dangerous because the players on the blue tees at Nos. 5 and 12 must take care to avoid hitting cars as they go speeding by.

The course starts well right out of the gate. The first green is guarded by a huge mound, almost like a Knoll hole from the Macdonald-Raynor school of architecture. Both first and second fairways rumble like ski runs over rugged terrain. The third is refreshingly unique, with its green benched into a hill, and with a pulpit bunker looming over the front right edge: simply amazing and one-of-a-kind.

After crossing the road at the fifth (with your tee shot!), the second is blind over a huge mound. The par-3 sixth is a great early version of a Short, while the par-3 eighth has a Redan-like feel, with a huge hill with which to carom a ball onto the green. Nine is a great par-5 finisher, rollicking up and down along heaving contours before finishing at the foot of the clubhouse.

The greens just get better one after the other on the back. No. 10 has a wicked false front; 11 has a punchbowl feel, although the bowl has been folded horizontally so as to be long across, but thin in depth. After crossing the road again with your drive on 12, the green runs away from the player. Nos. 14 and 16 have two severe tiers, with 14's being along a long axis of the green as opposed to bisecting it perpendicularly. No. 15 has a hog's back and is steeply canted back to front. The pretty 17th is followed by the anti-climactic 18th, the only bland hole on the course, with a green too closely guarded by water and sand.

The greens are kept at about 10.5 to 11 on the Stimpmeter. You also have to love that kids are the caddies. Harry Vardon's brother was the head pro here many years ago.


Number 2 looking back




The pulpit bunker overlooks the green.  Cool.  One of the two best sandies of my life - the other was at 16 at PGA West (Stadium)




par-3 6th




into #7




par-3 8th




into the par-5 9th




great fold in the par-3 11th





12 tee  I'm standing on the tee box...you hit across the road! (you do it on 5 too!)




Design - 6 stars (all ratings out of seven): I took a point or so off for all the out-of-bounds (the worst hazard on a golf course), but everything else is terrific, and the whole is greater than the sum of its considerable parts. Great terrain, a brilliant asymmetrical routing, the best greens of all the courses discussed here, and a warm, cheerful membership genuinely proud of their little jewel: they have successfully preserved Ross's work and captured the flavor of old-time golf. Even though it maxes out at 6,500 yards, the course proves you don't need length or major championships to have a truly great golf course. Tom Doak did a restoration recently but said, "there really wasn't much for me to do - they really had the course in great shape."

Other members said they were glad to see Doak. "We had a habit for a while of planting trees to confound a former member who kept besting the course record. Thankfully, we've cut down those trees and will continue the campaign." Good. To this writer, trees are nothing more than big nets, bunkers in the sky. Cut 'em all down or replant them elsewhere.

Natural Setting - 5.5 stars. Interlachen may slightly prettier, with its lake views, but this is close.

Conditioning - 6 stars

Overall - 6.5. White Bear Yacht Club has interesting holes and devious greens that the other courses just don't have.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2009, 07:08:18 PM by Jay Flemma »
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Jason McNamara

Re: White Bear Yacht Club - White Bear Lake, MN
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2009, 07:57:43 PM »
Thanks for the pics, Jay.  Btw, I think you hamstrung your argument from last week by picking only 4 courses from MSP.  It holds up much better against other medium-large cities (Cleveland, SF, even Philly?!?) if you compare 10 courses not 4.

Since this is a published article, as an FYI, I think an agreement gremlin snuck into the last sentence of your second graf.

J_ Crisham

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Re: White Bear Yacht Club - White Bear Lake, MN
« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2009, 08:14:25 PM »
Jay,  Nice pictures!  I played here 3 weeks ago in our MN Evans Scholar fundraiser and was mightily impressed. Played with the chairman of the greens committee during the reno work by Doak and Urbina. Very informative round. This track reminded me so much of Crystal Downs. Nice rural by the lake feel to it. Greens were equally as wicked. Not a shabby view from the clubhouse in the evening across the street!  Heavenly design in my opinion.
                                         Wish you well,    Jack

Tom MacWood

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Re: White Bear Yacht Club - White Bear Lake, MN
« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2009, 09:37:49 PM »
A fabulous looking golf course; it was actually designed by William Watson, not Ross. There was a thread about a month ago that got into this course and other Watson courses.

J_ Crisham

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Re: White Bear Yacht Club - White Bear Lake, MN
« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2009, 06:51:21 AM »
Tom,   You may want to recheck your facts regarding WBYC. Ross is the designer who is given credit for the current layout. My host who is the longtime chair of the greens committee was quite clear on this.  Not sure how many times you've been here but it is certainly special.   Jack   

Tom MacWood

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Re: White Bear Yacht Club - White Bear Lake, MN
« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2009, 07:19:27 AM »
Jack
I know he is given credit today, but Watson designed the course. Do you miss the thread of about a month ago?

Sean_A

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Re: White Bear Yacht Club - White Bear Lake, MN
« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2009, 07:39:37 AM »
Jack
I know he is given credit today, but Watson designed the course. Do you miss the thread of about a month ago?

Here is the thread.  The article are not nearly as conclusive as Tommy Mac suggests, but very interesting none the less.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Jason Topp

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Re: White Bear Yacht Club - White Bear Lake, MN
« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2009, 10:33:16 AM »
Thanks for the pictures Jay.   I have had several chances to play White Bear but have not been able to take advantage of them.  By all accounts it is among the best we have.

Jay Flemma

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Re: White Bear Yacht Club - White Bear Lake, MN
« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2009, 11:18:59 AM »
I think for some reason the thread never got posted here?

My interview with course head pro, super, and members all say ross.

I'm kicking myself that I don't have a pic of 14, 15, or 16 green.  I could've sworn I took one of 14 at least...

Interlachen and Minikahda when I get back from Virginia...
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Joe Bausch

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Re: White Bear Yacht Club - White Bear Lake, MN
« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2009, 11:34:41 AM »
From this article:

http://www.linksmagazine.com/golf_courses/united_states/minnesota/white_bear_yacht_club_golf_course_donald_ross.aspx

Is the following:

Ross’ history with the club is a bit fuzzy, as most documentation of the original course design was lost in the fire. All that survived was a promotional pamphlet bearing the legend: “Original design by William Watson. Developed by Tom Vardon and Donald Ross.”

Vardon tinkered with the layout during his tenure, which began in 1916. It is believed that Watson, a well-regarded Scottish designer, created some initial drawings for a lost front nine. But Ross’ fingerprints mark each of the 6,471 yards that sit across a road from the shores of White Bear Lake, where several of St. Paul’s most prominent families formed a sailing club in 1889.

In the early 20th century, Ross performed a considerable amount of work in Minnesota, designing or re-working Minikhada, Interlachen and Woodhill around the Twin Cities, as well as Northland near Duluth. White Bear’s official history includes the diary entry of a member recounting a 1910 meeting at which Ross (but not Watson or Vardon) discussed plans for the front nine. Further supporting Ross as the designer is the biography Discovering Donald Ross, which places him at the club in 1912 and 1915. The front opened in 1912 and the back in 1916.
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Dan Kelly

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Re: White Bear Yacht Club - White Bear Lake, MN
« Reply #10 on: August 26, 2009, 11:53:20 AM »
Let us all say a small prayer of gratitude that White Bear Lake is nowhere near Philadelphia.

Multiple emoticons omitted.
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Doug Wright

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Re: White Bear Yacht Club - White Bear Lake, MN
« Reply #11 on: August 26, 2009, 11:59:51 AM »
Let us all say a small prayer of gratitude that White Bear Lake is nowhere near Philadelphia.

Multiple emoticons omitted.

Amen Dan.
Twitter: @Deneuchre

Tom_Doak

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Re: White Bear Yacht Club - White Bear Lake, MN
« Reply #12 on: August 26, 2009, 12:06:32 PM »
Dan:

Amen to that, brother!

I have always tried to stay out of any debate on who designed WBYC because I simply don't know.  Whether it was Watson or Ross or somebody else, it is a unique course with some of the most severely contoured greens I have ever seen -- probably a candidate for the top 10 most severe sets of greens in the world.  Just to name two:  Jay's picture shows reasonably well the amazing flared-up back of the green at the par-3 11th; the very next green at #12 falls away at about 4-5 percent between two rounded shoulders at either side, after a cross-bunker about forty yards in front of the green.  You don't see variety like that on very many courses anywhere.

Our work there has been mostly to remove trees and re-do a couple of green sites that had been changed twenty years ago.  The only green we've rebuilt completely was #8.  It was originally a blind par-3 over a shoulder of the hill on the right in Jay's picture, but was changed in the 1960's or 1970's to a more modern aspect, which unfortunately had so much tilt that most balls hit and rolled off the left side of it at modern speeds.  The club had zero interest in going back to the original blind green (and they didn't have a good picture of it to go by anyway), so we took the newer green orientation and rebuilt it to take out some of the tilt, and added some more old-fashioned contouring at the margins.

Tom MacWood

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Re: White Bear Yacht Club - White Bear Lake, MN
« Reply #13 on: August 26, 2009, 12:58:15 PM »
Joe B.
Thanks for the info from the Links article. I knew they had a fire and had lost everything, or at least I'd thought they had lost everything. Evidently one document survived and it has Watson designing the course. In light of limited info I could see why the club would lean toward Ross, although Ross never claimed WBY was one of his designs. According to the May 1925, the 18-hole course is Watson's, not the 1912 course. I suspect Ross was involved circa 1920 when he redesigned Interlachen.

Jay Flemma

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Re: White Bear Yacht Club - White Bear Lake, MN
« Reply #14 on: August 27, 2009, 01:33:57 AM »
I have a handful more pix.  I'll post later tomorrow.
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

TEPaul

Re: White Bear Yacht Club - White Bear Lake, MN
« Reply #15 on: August 27, 2009, 09:36:57 AM »
"I have always tried to stay out of any debate on who designed WBYC because I simply don't know."


TomD:

Let's hope everyone on here can do the same unless something really indicative appears somehow. Is there anything indicative out there that's known including this "promotional pamphlet" of Willie Watson which seems to be the only thing that survived the GREAT FIRE? I guess if it had a drawing of White Bear YC on it and Willie's name on it and it closely resembles the course now or at some particular time that would be pretty indicative. On the other hand, there seem to be a diary entry or whatever about Ross offering an early nine and then another nine a few years later. Or something like that. I would say that may be in...ind....indic...ic...iiiiic....ah, um, whatever! ;)

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: White Bear Yacht Club - White Bear Lake, MN
« Reply #16 on: August 27, 2009, 09:41:22 AM »
There is a routing plan hanging on the wall of the pro shop. I recall it has a land planners name on it, but I also think Ross has his name on it, too. In fact, a copy of that routing might even be in the book if anyone cares to pull out the magnifying glass and see whose name is on it.

I also know Brad researched Ross' train/travel schedules (TMac, no kidding, he found nearly all of them before putting out the book!) and if he says Ross was at WBYC in 1912 and 1915, I tend to believe him. 
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Charlie Goerges

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Re: White Bear Yacht Club - White Bear Lake, MN
« Reply #17 on: August 27, 2009, 09:47:42 AM »
Here is a site with more than 100 pictures of WBYC:

http://golfing.mn/v/wbyc
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

TEPaul

Re: White Bear Yacht Club - White Bear Lake, MN
« Reply #18 on: August 27, 2009, 09:53:59 AM »
"I also know Brad researched Ross' train/travel schedules (TMac, no kidding, he found nearly all of them before putting out the book!) and if he says Ross was at WBYC in 1912 and 1915, I tend to believe him."


Mr. Jeffrey, Sir:

Ross train/travel schedules from where to where? If he found Ross traveled into the town where WBYC actually is I don't think that is anywhere near as indicative that Ross designed the course compared to if Brad Klein found Ross travel records from like North Carolina to Portland Oregon during which Donald might have lept off the train as it passed somewhere near the vicinity of WBYC and like designed the course in a matter of hours before proceeding on his way to Atlanta.....ah, excuse me, I mean Portland!  

Furthermore, I think we have to look into the real possibility that what Brad Klein actually found was the travel records of HH Barker who was traveling incognito under the pseudo-name of Donald Ross.

And finally, Jeffrey, Sir, did you know that Donald Ross occassionally traveled under the assumed name of Xenophon G. Hassenplug?
« Last Edit: August 27, 2009, 10:00:34 AM by TEPaul »

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: White Bear Yacht Club - White Bear Lake, MN
« Reply #19 on: August 27, 2009, 10:02:10 AM »
Mr Paul, good sir,

I spent a good bit of time with the good Mr. Klein in MN a few years back, and in our drive time, he was kind enough to explain his Ross book research, which had just come out.

My point was simply that I think he did a lot of scholarly research in advance of publishing, something that doesn't always happen before posting something on the internet.

I do recall him saying, however, that Ross appeared to keep fairly meticulous records, and they exist, so it was an easier job to complete.  He was able to discern that some clubs that had claimed Ross designs never had him stop by because the train passed in the middle of the night, and Ross didn't mention jumping off at 60MPH!  I think Ross cabled home every night or regularly when he checked into hotels, etc.  So in fact, the record is really more Ross than train schedule.

But, you called for definitive information, and I am not really supplying that, other than I will see if I can find the related references in Brad's book sometime today or tonight.

Have a good day, sir!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

TEPaul

Re: White Bear Yacht Club - White Bear Lake, MN
« Reply #20 on: August 27, 2009, 10:20:01 AM »
"But, you called for definitive information, and I am not really supplying that, other than I will see if I can find the related references in Brad's book sometime today or tonight.

Have a good day, sir!"



Mr. Jeffrey Sir:

Thank you; so far I'm having a very good day.

Bradley, The Magnificent Klein is an excellent and intelligent researcher and analyst and writer but in many ways he lacks the real imagination necessary to be a true historian of the First Water.

In my opinion, the true story of who designed that golf course or at least its wild and crazy greens has been sitting right under everyone's nose for many, many decades and apparently they have all missed it.

We know they were there for an extended time because the hotel records prove it and we even know they were drinkin' and fightin' the whole time because we also know eventually it was necessary to evict them.

So I think it is pretty obvious that those super wild and crazy WBYC greens were designed by the ultra wild and crazy Scott and Zelda Fitzgerald with perhaps some serious HELP and ADVICE from The GREAT Jay Gatsby!

If I was WBYC's historian that's the story and architectural attribution I would certainly tell them to run with in the future!

Do you think I should at least write an In My Opinion piece on here about it entitled "The Wild and Crazy Faces of White Bear Lake Yacht Club Golf Course Greens?"

It may even be probable that Donald Ross and Zelda Fitzgerald have a love child out there somewhere who may have the greatest untapped golf architectural talent in history!
« Last Edit: August 27, 2009, 10:24:48 AM by TEPaul »

Dan Kelly

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Re: White Bear Yacht Club - White Bear Lake, MN
« Reply #21 on: August 27, 2009, 10:24:04 AM »
.. the good Mr. Klein...

Doctor Klein, I presume?
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Tom MacWood

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Re: White Bear Yacht Club - White Bear Lake, MN
« Reply #22 on: August 27, 2009, 10:29:38 AM »
The plan is in the Ross biography and Ross's name is not on it.

Tom MacWood

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Re: White Bear Yacht Club - White Bear Lake, MN
« Reply #23 on: August 27, 2009, 12:42:55 PM »
There is a routing plan hanging on the wall of the pro shop. I recall it has a land planners name on it, but I also think Ross has his name on it, too. In fact, a copy of that routing might even be in the book if anyone cares to pull out the magnifying glass and see whose name is on it.

I also know Brad researched Ross' train/travel schedules (TMac, no kidding, he found nearly all of them before putting out the book!) and if he says Ross was at WBYC in 1912 and 1915, I tend to believe him. 

I think your memory might be failing you.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: White Bear Yacht Club - White Bear Lake, MN
« Reply #24 on: August 27, 2009, 05:52:47 PM »
The only plan I've ever seen of the golf course is a blueprint that shows topo and the routing of holes (slightly different than today's routing, if I recall correctly).  It had no architect's name on it and did not look like in the style of golf course architect plans I've seen from the early days.

Everything we've done with the course is based on an aerial from the early 1930's [I think] which has been in the superintendent's office since the first time I visited.