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Andrew Cunningham

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Re: The Sagebrush Golf & Sporting Club Experience (ALL 18 HOLES POSTED!)
« Reply #75 on: September 23, 2009, 09:14:32 PM »
Rob, I would compare the experience at Sagebrush to my first visit to Pebble Beach. Both times I had very high expectations and both times they were exceeded. There have been many really good courses created in the last ten years or so but few (in my opinion) have created an experience like Sagebrush. This is due in part to their creation of the "Hideaway" which I've heard described as the best halfway house in the world - an apt description.  The exclusive, remote, and unique atmosphere that the Sagebrush team has created is unparalleled in Canada.

Having played only three rounds - each far different than the other due to changing wind conditions - I think my favorite hole is the ninth.  On Monday after a good drive up the left (the best possible angle to any pin) I pushed my approach slightly right of the pin and about 15 feet short, just over the front green side bunker.  But because of the incredible slopes and plateaus in this wildly intriguing green I had to putt 20 feet up towards the fringe, hoping the slope would bring it back to the hole without too much speed.  Wrong.  With greens that typically run more than 11+, I had a 25 footer coming back up the slope.  These greens would make Oakmont members jealous.  I can't wait to return.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2009, 09:19:28 PM by Andrew Cunningham »

Will MacEwen

Re: The Sagebrush Golf & Sporting Club Experience (ALL 18 HOLES POSTED!)
« Reply #76 on: September 23, 2009, 09:51:53 PM »
Andrew - what about flying into Kelowna?  I assume you are in T.O.

The club is spellbinding and I am not shocked you bought a membership on site.  It is a little remote for me right now, but that doesn't seem to be a problem for you.  I figure it only takes two good long weekends with some friends to justify it, but it works better for empty nesters.

I think for golf junkies in Vancouver who don't belong to a club it is actually quite sensible.

Congrats on putting the Visa down and asking questions later...

Jeff_Mingay

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Re: The Sagebrush Golf & Sporting Club Experience (ALL 18 HOLES POSTED!)
« Reply #77 on: September 24, 2009, 08:09:07 AM »
Rod Whitman and I are heading out to Sagebrush with a group of friends for some golf this weekend. Having spent much time at creating the course, I'm really looking forward to teeing it up for the first time, there.

Will offer more upon my return, I imagine...
jeffmingay.com

Norbert P

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Re: The Sagebrush Golf & Sporting Club Experience (ALL 18 HOLES POSTED!)
« Reply #78 on: September 24, 2009, 02:49:28 PM »
Congratulations to all for a terrific looking result.

http://scoregolf.com/articles/news/2009/september/best-new-golf-course-2009.cfm

Phillipe, you must be a proud owner of Simpson and Weathered's Architectural Side of Golf .  If these bunkers were in black and white they would fit right in with the illustrations of that book. 

                                         


  Absolutely outstanding work on a challenging site.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2009, 02:54:47 PM by Slag Bandoon »
"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

Norbert P

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Re: The Sagebrush Golf & Sporting Club Experience (ALL 18 HOLES POSTED!)
« Reply #79 on: September 24, 2009, 03:08:05 PM »
  I'm curious what grasses were used and what the method of clearing the sagebrush/bitterbrush was. 

  There are so many interesting attributes to this place; e.g. the boathouse/pumphouse, the austerity and ruggedness, the slopes and rolls.   I'm walkin' it when I go. If I'm riding a cart there, I might as well be in Florida.  You're in the freakin' Rockies! Feel the burn! Experience the land and the its uniqueness.     

The hills are aliiiiive . . . with the sound of whiners.     
"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

Matt Bosela

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Re: The Sagebrush Golf & Sporting Club Experience (ALL 18 HOLES POSTED!)
« Reply #80 on: October 06, 2009, 10:45:10 PM »
Rod Whitman and I are heading out to Sagebrush with a group of friends for some golf this weekend. Having spent much time at creating the course, I'm really looking forward to teeing it up for the first time, there.

Will offer more upon my return, I imagine...

Well Jeff, I've given you a couple weeks but now I must bump this to see what you think of the place you helped create!  What did you like?  Any regrets now that you've seen the final result?  Did you curse the little indentation in the 18th green?  What were Rod's impressions overall?

Rob Rigg

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Re: The Sagebrush Golf & Sporting Club Experience
« Reply #81 on: October 06, 2009, 10:51:29 PM »
Slag,

I am with you - my understanding is that there are not many people out on the course at any one time - so this is the type of tough walk that I would embrace. If I can walk and not hold anyone up, then that is how I would like to play a course like Sagebrush if they would allow me.

I am hoping to get up there next summer - the photos are captivating and that is a beautiful part of the planet (even by Oregon standards :) )

Jeff_Mingay

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Re: The Sagebrush Golf & Sporting Club Experience (ALL 18 HOLES POSTED!)
« Reply #82 on: October 07, 2009, 08:40:58 AM »
Rod Whitman and I are heading out to Sagebrush with a group of friends for some golf this weekend. Having spent much time at creating the course, I'm really looking forward to teeing it up for the first time, there.

Will offer more upon my return, I imagine...

Well Jeff, I've given you a couple weeks but now I must bump this to see what you think of the place you helped create!  What did you like?  Any regrets now that you've seen the final result?  Did you curse the little indentation in the 18th green?  What were Rod's impressions overall?

Matt,

Rod and I, and our guests, had a great time at Sagebrush last weekend.

The weather was typical Nicola Valley; nearly perfect. And, the course played really fun. The ball was bouncin' and the greens were excellent. Golf course superintendent Norley Calder had the greens firm and fast, but not over the top. If you played your ball to the correct position, putting was reasonable. Playing out of position though almost always resulted in 3 or 4 putts! The slope and contour in the greens at Sagebrush is consistently, and purposefully, bold.

The ground is really a factor at Sagebrush. There are so many ways to play nearly every shot; and, so often, aiming directly at the flagstick isn't the best option. This is the course's greatest attribute. It's fun... but, I can certainly see staunch "card and pencil" types becoming easily frustrated. Sagebrush is definitely a better match-play course; which is what we had in mind from the outset.

I'm glad to see so many compliments on the bunkers, at this thread. These bunkers were a challenge to build because soil conditions are so poor. In many places, the soil is like powder. So, we'd cut a great looking bunker, only to watch rain and irrigation water melt beautiful edges away. As much as people like the look of the bunkers, I think they could be even better... and probably will get better as time goes on. (Frankly, I'd rake the bunkers more often, too. But this is Mr. Zokol's call.)

Due to elevation, slope, and firm fairways, I thought the course played shorter than the scorecard indicates as well, which is great. And, there's plenty of width throughout; there weren't too many lost balls amongst our group of average golfers.

The indentation in the 18th green is an interesting story: The current location of the green is location #3! We actually had a green built lower and slightly right of the current green. After some debate, we moved the green to its present location, making a fill over an irrigation valve (whoops!). The valve had to be dug up and removed. The pipe was capped. Unfortunately, this particular spot didn't compact properly, and sunk... resulting in the indentation. It'll be fixed though; no big deal.

The 18th hole was one of the most debated throughout construction. After playing the course a couple times, I think it's actually one of my favourites. I particularly enjoy the look of the hole from the tee; especially late in the day.

Overall, Rod's impressions are similar to mine. He's happy with the end result; and, I'm pleased to report that the club has exceeded expectations in its first year of operations. The course has been extremely well-received by golfers. We can't ask for more than that. 
jeffmingay.com

Jeff_Mingay

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Re: The Sagebrush Golf & Sporting Club Experience (ALL 18 HOLES POSTED!)
« Reply #83 on: October 07, 2009, 08:47:02 AM »
  I'm curious what grasses were used and what the method of clearing the sagebrush/bitterbrush was. 

  There are so many interesting attributes to this place; e.g. the boathouse/pumphouse, the austerity and ruggedness, the slopes and rolls.   I'm walkin' it when I go. If I'm riding a cart there, I might as well be in Florida.  You're in the freakin' Rockies! Feel the burn! Experience the land and the its uniqueness.     

The hills are aliiiiive . . . with the sound of whiners.     

Slag,

We flagged the fairway areas then stripped topsoil and plant material (and rocks!) with bulldozer and excavators. This materials was hauled off by rock trucks, stockpiled, then screened and replaced after shaping, with some amendments (most notably chicken sh*t!) added.

There's a variety of fescues planted in fairway and rough areas, along with some colonial bent. The greens are a variety of bents (no fescue).

Again, Sagebrush is walk-able. The only really tough spots are #8 green to #9 tees; #10 green to #11 tees; #11 green to #12 tees (!); and, #14 green to #15 tees. It's definitely doable, for someone who's fit.
jeffmingay.com

Jeff_Mingay

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Re: The Sagebrush Golf & Sporting Club Experience
« Reply #84 on: October 07, 2009, 08:52:30 AM »
Just received this photo yesterday... looking down #17 fairway, with the home hole in the background.

Cheers,

jeffmingay.com

Ryan Admussen

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Re: The Sagebrush Golf & Sporting Club Experience
« Reply #85 on: October 31, 2009, 10:59:34 PM »
Not sure if it was on this site or not but I read there was limited public play by invitation? Just wondering how it works and if that will still be the case next spring? Amazing job to everyone involved, definitely a special place!

Jeff_Mingay

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Re: The Sagebrush Golf & Sporting Club Experience
« Reply #86 on: November 01, 2009, 09:50:41 AM »
Ryan,

Yes, there was limited public play through "proper introduction" at Sagebrush this year. I'm not sure what the structure is going to be in 2010.

I'd send 'em a note, if interested, through the club's web site: www.sagebrushclub.com
jeffmingay.com

Matt Bosela

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Re: The Sagebrush Golf & Sporting Club Experience
« Reply #87 on: November 25, 2009, 01:06:42 PM »
Thought this was worthy of posting here - news release just sent over via email from Mr. Zokol:

Quote
For Immediate Release

Sagebrush Recognized by Golf Digest and USGA for Leading-Edge Agronomy

Vancouver, B.C.: The Sagebrush Golf & Sporting Club, in British Columbia’s Nicola
Valley, has been identified by the United States Golf Association [USGA] and Golf
Digest Magazine as one of five examples of top golf facilities in North America using
leading-edge agronomy practices for firm & fast playing conditions.

In preparing the keynote address to 2010 Golf Industry Show, USGA agronomist Brian
Whitlark consulted Ron Whitten, Golf Digest Architecture Editor, “for examples of
courses employing leading-edge agronomy.” Whitten named five golf facilities, including
Sagebrush.

“In fact, Sagebrush was at the top of my list,” said Whitten. “This is where the game is
evolving, and Sagebrush is one of the courses proving what is good for the game.”

The USGA’s Whitlark has been researching the new approach to golf course design and
maintenance to create firm & fast playing conditions and reached out to Whitten.
Whitten’s reply was, “At the urging of the American Society of Golf Course Architects,
Golf Digest has rewritten its Conditioning criterion used in determining the top courses in
its biennial ranking of the America’s 100 Greatest Golf Courses and Best in each state.
The old definition dealt with playing quality of tees, fairways and greens. The new
definition reads, “How firm, fast and rolling were the fairways and how firm yet
receptive were the greens on the date you played the course.”

“Golf Digest is urging a movement away from industry standards of heavy watering
practices,” said Whitten. “Less water usage has many benefits, not the least of which is
that it improves playability in the game.”

The inclusion of Sagebrush, SCOREGolf Magazine’s Best New Course in Canada for
2009, further elevates the unique club on the shores of Nicola Lake and its
Superintendent Norley Calder, co-designers Richard Zokol, Rod Whitman and Armen
Suny into a very prestigious and select group of courses and designers. The four other
courses identified are Bandon Dunes, in Bandon, OR; Calusa Pines, in Naples, FL.;
Ballyhack, in Roanoke, VA; and The Club at Clear Creek, in Lake Tahoe, NV.

“Whether you like it or not, given where the costs of the game are going and taking into
consideration the decreasing availability of water, as well as the environment, everybody
will be forced to cut back on water,” added Whitten.

Sagebrush, the only course outside the US on the list, is the first minimalist design linksstyle
course of its kind in Canada. The minimalist approach to golf course construction
and maintenance has proved to be both innovative and ‘green’ in an era of heightened
environmental awareness.

“The philosophies we practice are not only good for golf and the environment, but as
importantly, the business model is cost-effective,” explained Sagebrush co-designer and
Chairman Richard Zokol. “The minimalist approach to construction and the firm & fast
approach to water use and maintenance are now keys to the success of every golf course.”
Firm & fast maintenance practices and reduced water applications mirror operating costs
of decades ago. And, the approach emulates the natural evolution of classic British Isles
courses that date back centuries. With ‘deep and infrequent’ watering, a more durable
grass develops that needs less fertilizer and pesticides.

“Norley Calder [Sagebrush’s Superintendent] has done a wonderful job establishing an
excellent root-base through the first year of operations at Sagebrush,” said agronomist
and Sagebrush co-designer Armen Suny. “The philosophy is to try to mimic natural rain
events with irrigation. Grass didn’t develop over all these hundreds of thousands of years
by getting the computer-generated perfect amount of water every night. The grasses went
through dry spells and through wet spells, a process that makes plants healthier, stronger,
and better equipped to stand off disease and stress.”

The benefits of minimalist golf course architecture and firm & fast agronomy practices
are many and far-reaching for the environment and golf course operations. And, they are
just as beneficial to golfers, introducing them to a variety of shots, club selections they
may never have thought of, and a chance to play golf the way the game has been played
for most of its 500-year history – firm and fast.

Congratulations to Richard, Norley and everyone associated with the club for this honour.  Great to see the course getting the praise it deserves not only for the design but the playing conditions now as well.  Can't wait to get out there again!

George Freeman

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Re: The Sagebrush Golf & Sporting Club Experience
« Reply #88 on: January 28, 2010, 11:50:24 PM »
bumping this great thread for those who may have missed it...
Mayhugh is my hero!!

"I love creating great golf courses.  I love shaping earth...it's a canvas." - Donald J. Trump

Andrew Cunningham

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Re: The Sagebrush Golf & Sporting Club Experience
« Reply #89 on: May 20, 2010, 12:38:08 PM »
Sagebrush may just be the "best" inland "links" style course in North America.  Having recently played Whistling Straits and Arcadia Bluffs, two very good courses, I am even more convinced of Sagebrush's prominence in North America golf.  While plenty of courses play lip service to “firm and fast,” Sagebrush defines it.  It is the first course in NA that I have played where running the ball up to the green is the best option – in fact many times it is the ONLY option if you want to keep the ball on the green. 

I expected at least some “links” style playing characteristics at Whistling Straits.  Perhaps for the PGA they will bake it out to get some roll, but in stark contrast Sagebrush is green, firm, and fast by design.  I admit I have not experienced Ballyneal, Pacific, Old Mac, or even Sand Hills.  I would love to hear opinions from those who have played the above and Sagebrush.  My experience suggests that Sagebrush should be in the Top 50 courses in the World – at least based Golf Magazine criteria and current rankings.  It’s that good and an absolute must play.


Andrew

Matt Bosela

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Re: The Sagebrush Golf & Sporting Club Experience
« Reply #90 on: May 20, 2010, 04:19:55 PM »
Sagebrush may just be the "best" inland "links" style course in North America.  Having recently played Whistling Straits and Arcadia Bluffs, two very good courses, I am even more convinced of Sagebrush's prominence in North America golf.  While plenty of courses play lip service to “firm and fast,” Sagebrush defines it.  It is the first course in NA that I have played where running the ball up to the green is the best option – in fact many times it is the ONLY option if you want to keep the ball on the green. 

I expected at least some “links” style playing characteristics at Whistling Straits.  Perhaps for the PGA they will bake it out to get some roll, but in stark contrast Sagebrush is green, firm, and fast by design.  I admit I have not experienced Ballyneal, Pacific, Old Mac, or even Sand Hills.  I would love to hear opinions from those who have played the above and Sagebrush.  My experience suggests that Sagebrush should be in the Top 50 courses in the World – at least based Golf Magazine criteria and current rankings.  It’s that good and an absolute must play.

Andrew

Andrew,

Powerful comments...and thanks for the bump! :)

I should be able to comment on this later in the year.  I've only played Sagebrush thus far but hope to get a bit more perspective in the summer, as I'm scheduled to play two of the other courses you mentioned for the first time in June and also will be revisiting Sagebrush in late July.

I definitely share your enthusiasm for the ground game and the overall experience at Sagebrush and can't wait to return in a couple months!

Garland Bayley

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Re: The Sagebrush Golf & Sporting Club Experience
« Reply #91 on: May 20, 2010, 04:26:05 PM »
...

I expected at least some “links” style playing characteristics at Whistling Straits.  Perhaps for the PGA they will bake it out to get some roll,...

Tom Doak has pointed out in the past that Pete planted grasses in the lead up to the greens that would inhibit the ground game being used there.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Bob Jenkins

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Re: The Sagebrush Golf & Sporting Club Experience
« Reply #92 on: May 20, 2010, 05:24:42 PM »


It was very interesting to see Andrew's post of earlier today. I was just up at Sagebrush again last weekend and it all came back to me just how good it was, how significant the ground game is and as Andrew says, there are a couple of holes where you must use the ground to be able to hold the green. The entire course is very firm and fast and the greens are soooo true, they are massive and watching approach shots run out is a total gas!

I will be up there a lot this summer and look forward to the GCA outing in early August! Still some room if you get in touch with me.

Bob Jenkins

Sean Leary

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Re: The Sagebrush Golf & Sporting Club Experience
« Reply #93 on: July 25, 2010, 12:17:15 AM »
Just bumping this for the boys coming up in a couple of weeks.

Just got back from playing there for two days with Bob J and Dick Choi. I had high expectations but was not disappointed. Just a great course and a better place. Terry and Dick Z, congratulations.

Couple of thoughts.

The course is actually quite walkable with the exception of the two green to tee walks on the back side, especially if you play the blue tees. The site is actually more severe than I thought, and there is a lot more blindness than I expected, especially from the black tees.

The side slope of the hill moves the ball a huge amount on tee shots and approach shots but not as much on the  greens, which I found interesting. I kept getting fooled thinking there was more break than there was.

I recommend not keeping score the first round, seriously. There is some blindness, the scale of the place is so huge, and the ball goes so far that it takes a bit to get used to. It plays WAY shorter than the yardage. We played it from the 7300 yard tees, and it played 6700 yards, I would guess. And buy a yardage book, trust me because not having any yardages on the card is really hard the first time around.

The greens are just absolutely enormous, and that takes a bit to get used to as well.

Favorite holes are 3, 9, 13, and 14. 12 is a really cool short par 3 that doesn't really fit in with the rest of the course, but it is so fun I give it a pass. 9 green is world class, and I hope you guys get a back left pin there because it is something to see..

Bob was a great host, of course, especially for a Canadian.  We met up with Matt Bosela and his buddies, who were great, and spent some time with Dick Zokol, who gave us some background, history, and allowed Choi to do some beardpulling and tell everyone again how great Old Mac and Chambers Bay are.. Rich was offered a membership last night over cocktails, but that offer was quickly rescinded after they saw the brush tee on the first tee box today ;)

Its a course that really grows on you after repeated plays, and the hospitality and the people there are second to none. I look forward to going back......



« Last Edit: July 26, 2010, 01:15:49 PM by Sean Leary »

Philippe Binette

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Re: The Sagebrush Golf & Sporting Club Experience
« Reply #94 on: July 25, 2010, 08:20:44 AM »
Sean: interesting comments about the 12th hole... not fiitting with the rest of the course.

I think it's a fun hole. The reason why it seems to doesn't fit is because it's really the only enclosed hole on the course... that said, ir would have fiited just fine had the entire hole been 50 feet lower and the players would have just entered in this area with a short walk from the 11th green. It's probably a matter of flow in the property... the cart ride prevents that a little...

but still, it's a wonderful spot on the property that only carts gave it access.


or maybe it's because it's the last hole before the hideout and you guys are getting thirsty !!!

Sean Leary

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Re: The Sagebrush Golf & Sporting Club Experience
« Reply #95 on: July 25, 2010, 09:41:26 AM »
Sean: interesting comments about the 12th hole... not fiitting with the rest of the course.

I think it's a fun hole. The reason why it seems to doesn't fit is because it's really the only enclosed hole on the course... that said, ir would have fiited just fine had the entire hole been 50 feet lower and the players would have just entered in this area with a short walk from the 11th green. It's probably a matter of flow in the property... the cart ride prevents that a little...

but still, it's a wonderful spot on the property that only carts gave it access.


or maybe it's because it's the last hole before the hideout and you guys are getting thirsty !!!

Philippe,


12 was my favorite par 3. It doesn't "look"  like the rest of the course, though, and that is the one walk that really makes the course a cartball course for most people. That corner of the course is beautiful, and the Hideout is awesome, but I wonder if Rod would have gone up there, if the Hideout hadn't been created first.


Jeff_Mingay

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Re: The Sagebrush Golf & Sporting Club Experience
« Reply #96 on: July 25, 2010, 11:36:53 AM »
Sean,

"The Hideout" wasn't created first... that is, before the routing was complete.

In fact, the original routing plan had holes 12 and 13 playing backward... before "The Hideout" - which wouldn't have worked with this plan - was really conceived. The existing 13th would have played up the hill as #12 (you would have had to walk in front of the tees at the 14th to get from #11 green to those #12 tees). The par-3 12th would then have played reverse, as #13, with Nicola Lake in the background.

This change to the routing plan happened before construction began. "The Hideout" came along after. There was a small, existing pond there, at "The Hideout"/13th hole, which was significantly enlarged to create an adequately sized irrigation reservoir and now, indirectly, a nice compliment to "The Hideout" area.   
jeffmingay.com

Sean Leary

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Re: The Sagebrush Golf & Sporting Club Experience
« Reply #97 on: July 25, 2010, 11:59:48 AM »
Sean,

"The Hideout" wasn't created first... that is, before the routing was complete.

In fact, the original routing plan had holes 12 and 13 playing backward... before "The Hideout" - which wouldn't have worked with this plan - was really conceived. The existing 13th would have played up the hill as #12 (you would have had to walk in front of the tees at the 14th to get from #11 green to those #12 tees). The par-3 12th would then have played reverse, as #13, with Nicola Lake in the background.

This change to the routing plan happened before construction began. "The Hideout" came along after. There was a small, existing pond there, at "The Hideout"/13th hole, which was significantly enlarged to create an adequately sized irrigation reservoir and now, indirectly, a nice compliment to "The Hideout" area.   

Huh,

I could have sworn Terry told me that one of the first things that they did was to create the hideout and the pond...Oh well.

Jeff_Mingay

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Re: The Sagebrush Golf & Sporting Club Experience
« Reply #98 on: July 25, 2010, 12:37:37 PM »
Sean,

Terry did a great job "dreaming up" the idea for "The Hideout" area; and, it was in his mind from the get-go (early on). But, it took awhile to develop that area... with the routing change, the design of the lake, teeing areas and paths at #13 tees, cattle trail leading from the ranch to the grass lands on the other side of the mountain, etc.

There's a lot going on up in that area of the course... and, it works really well.
jeffmingay.com

Philippe Binette

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Re: The Sagebrush Golf & Sporting Club Experience
« Reply #99 on: July 25, 2010, 01:27:13 PM »
The hideout must definitely be one of the best spot to chill out after a round in the world.