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Michael Blake

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Re: Barclays, Tiger and Liberty National
« Reply #50 on: August 26, 2009, 02:07:58 PM »
Tom,

It probably adds nothing to the conversation, nor does judging a course based on an infomercial as others have.
I guess I am simply trying to defend the architects and ultimately to whom they are paid to please.

Jim,

Yup, the marketing stuff is silly and transparent.  I did see their special and was floored by how much things cost.  That being said, I do look forward to walking the course this weekend to see it with my own eyes in order to make my own judgement.

Richard,

Have you played LN?

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Barclays, Tiger and Liberty National
« Reply #51 on: August 26, 2009, 02:12:18 PM »
Michael, no I have not played LN. My comments are towards Bob Cupp courses I have played over last several years.

Michael Blake

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Barclays, Tiger and Liberty National
« Reply #52 on: August 26, 2009, 02:17:50 PM »
Michael, no I have not played LN. My comments are towards Bob Cupp courses I have played over last several years.

Got it.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Barclays, Tiger and Liberty National
« Reply #53 on: August 26, 2009, 02:21:39 PM »
Whose doing the broadcast btw?

I pray to God its not Nantz because the cliche/azz-kssing/flowery references will likely be off the charts.

P.S.  As much as I don't like Johnny, he would be prefect for this venue cause he'll be "honest" with it!!   ;D

P.P.S.  Just checked and it is CBS indeed....for the 1st time in history I just may have to mute the TV during a golf broadcast!!!

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Barclays, Tiger and Liberty National
« Reply #54 on: August 26, 2009, 02:25:33 PM »
For anyone who's interested:

Feature Interview With Bob Cupp

Sometimes in discussions like this one, perspective is lost. It reminds me of the original Atlantic Golf Club arguments; people were very harsh in their criticism, yet the consensus was that it was still an above average course - just not that close in quality to Shinney or NGLA; not many courses are. In many ways, it seems as though the primary criticism here is that the course does not live up to the marketing hype. That's fine, a more than valid concern imho. It might be nice if people offered a little more in their reviews, however.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Tom Dunne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Barclays, Tiger and Liberty National
« Reply #55 on: August 26, 2009, 02:32:39 PM »
Michael,

That's fair enough regarding the client-architect relationship, but I don't see how one can ask people not to draw conclusions from a marketing piece that the club put in front of the public of its own accord. People are being told how to regard the course and club, and some aren't buying that bill of goods. It's likely that CBS will give LN glowing coverage because million-dollar views are easy to sell. And so is Tiger Woods bombing a drive at the Statue of Liberty. I get that much!

My point is that it comes at a cost, though. It's just one more Tour venue that sits heavily on the land, and one more week where a more-graceful style of architecture (Golden Age or "Second Golden Age") isn't on TV screens. I believe people are influenced by what they see on TV. What's the message here? I realize the Barclays after this year will go to Ridgewood, Plainfield, and likely even back to Westchester for what may or may not be the last dance, but I just see LN as a harbinger of things to come. The Tour schedule is jammed with modern behemoths--where do those who favor some diversity draw the line? Riviera?

Anyway, I'm glad to hear you'll be out there walking the course. I sincerely look forward to hearing your opinion.  




Jason McNamara

Re: Barclays, Tiger and Liberty National
« Reply #56 on: August 26, 2009, 02:36:23 PM »
Whose doing the broadcast btw?

I pray to God its not Nantz because the cliche/azz-kssing/flowery references will likely be off the charts.

P.S.  As much as I don't like Johnny, he would be prefect for this venue cause he'll be "honest" with it!!   ;D

P.P.S.  Just checked and it is CBS indeed....for the 1st time in history I just may have to mute the TV during a golf broadcast!!!

Nantz is a Winged Foot member, so my guess is that (off-air) he'd be partial to Westchester.

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Barclays, Tiger and Liberty National
« Reply #57 on: August 26, 2009, 02:38:17 PM »
George,
No loss of perspective on my part, I never offered an opinion of the course.

I don't care how good or bad the course is, the marketing is ridiculous.  
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Brad Fleischer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Barclays, Tiger and Liberty National
« Reply #58 on: August 26, 2009, 02:38:30 PM »
I was there Tue. for the practice round and it was pretty empty. This was good for me as I got to see all of the course and was lucky enough to snag quite a few signatures .

  Eye candy wise the place has it wether you want to admit it or not. The course was in even more "PGA" shape than other venues I have attended. There were a couple of holes that looked good to my eye but overall it was certainly not what I had pictured in my mind. At least it has the views going for it .

 I will say how it was built and what was done was probably a engineering marvel. The place oozes money the minute you see it from the outside. Just the retaining wall and pavers alone must have cost a small fortune.

 Some of the green complexes did look interesting like number 15 . The wind also seemed to be a big factor and I think scores will be rather high this week. Number six was unreachable all day. I overheard Justin Leonard say if the wind shifts it will be unreachable in morning and could be a driver 5 iron in afternoon. I overheard many players actually saying how hard it would play all week.

Side note:
Afterwords I stopped by the riverwalk next to Bayonne Golf Club. It's a mere five min's away but the two courses couldn't be farther apart. Bayonne looks like it's growing in nicely and the walkway does go through the club so I was able to see much more than I thought I would.
Where Liberty is "florida esq." Bayonne looks "Irish esq." . They are on totally different sides of the spectrum.

Mark Woodger

Re: Barclays, Tiger and Liberty National
« Reply #59 on: August 26, 2009, 02:39:48 PM »
I have never played there so i can't comment on the course and i didn't see the TV programme but Tiger coming along gives the owners a big break in exposure. All the marketing that is coming out from the club must be aimed at getting the most out of the tournement and Tigers appearance. Whether you like the format, tone etc  or not to me it appears to make good business sense to milk the exposure for all its worth to try and generate some revenue and memberships whether they be from the US or the rest of the world, and at a price of 500k you have to say some pretty lofty claims to justify the price tag and to deliver the exclusivity the club is promising.

This article below is from Bloomberg News.


Woods Gives Liberty National ‘Break,’ Fireman Says (Update1)
2009-08-26 16:04:27.921 GMT


     (Adds comments from U.S. PGA Tour Commissioner Tim Finchem in 13th, 14th paragraphs.)

By Michael Buteau
     Aug. 26 (Bloomberg) -- Tiger Woods’s arrival on the shores of New York Harbor this week is exactly what the owners of Liberty National Golf Club were hoping for.
     They just didn’t expect to have to spend $250 million before he showed up.
     “When you add it all together, it’s more than we ever thought it would be,” said Dan Fireman, who poured 70,000 truckloads of dirt onto a former toxic waste dump in Jersey City, New Jersey, to build the course with his father, Paul, the founder of Reebok International Ltd. The original budget was $130 million.
     When Woods announced last week that he planned to play in the Barclays tournament, the first of the U.S. PGA Tour’s FedEx Cup playoff events, the sigh of relief ran from the Fireman Capital Partners headquarters in Boston to its Fort Lauderdale offices.
     “It was a lucky break,” Dan Fireman said. “We needed it.”
     Like many private golf clubs in the U.S., Liberty National is struggling to attract members during the worst economic slump since the Great Depression. So far, about 100 members have signed up to play a course that features views of the Statue of Liberty from 14 of 18 holes. The Firemans, who are charging $500,000 per membership, have a target of about 200. The arrival of Woods, No. 1 in the World Golf Ranking, might be the best sales pitch they could wish for.

                         Worldwide Exposure

     “Anytime you can get exposure of your golf course in the U.S. and worldwide TV, it’s certainly going to help membership and notoriety,” Fireman said in an interview yesterday on a crowded tournament driving range. “And having the world’s best players here is certainly going to validate what we built.”
     Three-time major winner Phil Mickelson, Home Depot Inc.
founder Ken Langone, New York Giants quarterback Eli Manning and Simon Property Group Inc. Chief Executive Officer David Simon are club members. The true stamp of approval would come from Woods.
     As the winner of 70 U.S. PGA Tour events, including 14 major titles, Woods is finicky about where he competes and rarely plays golf courses he doesn’t like.
     “What I really hope is that the golf course turns him on,” said Bob Cupp, who co-designed the 7,419-yard layout with Tom Kite, the winner of 19 U.S. PGA tour events. “That would be the ultimate compliment.”

                         Cupp Connection

     Woods, 33, won his third consecutive U.S. Amateur championship shortly before turning professional in 1996 at Oregon’s Pumpkin Ridge, a course Cupp also designed.
     “If the reputation of this course is solidified by this event, it would be a big deal,” Cupp said. “Everybody can sense it.”
     The tournament will move to New Jersey’s Ridgewood Country Club in 2010 and Plainfield Country Club in 2011 as part of a planned rotation around other venues in the metropolitan New York area. While Tim Finchem, commissioner of the PGA Tour, said Liberty National is a “good, solid golf course” the venue was chosen mostly because of its location and vistas.
     “From a television standpoint, it’s probably unique in the world,” Finchem said in a press conference. “It’s going to be an absolute stunning presentation.”
     Most of the tournament competitors aren’t concerned with the club’s finances. They care about the course’s difficulty.
Yet, during early week practice rounds, many couldn’t help being distracted by the 300-foot-tall statue of Lady Liberty just offshore.

                         ‘Pretty Cool’

     “It’s pretty cool,” said Steve Stricker, who enters the event second behind Woods in the FedEx Cup points standings.
“We don’t get a backdrop like that ever on Tour. It’s a great sight.”
     When the course opened in 2006, the Firemans had visions of ferries crossing the New York Harbor from Wall Street. They didn’t anticipate a 22.7 percent drop in the S&P 500 Index over the next three years. In addition, since the collapse of the credit industry, triggered by the subprime mortgage crisis, almost 330,000 jobs have been lost worldwide in the financial services industry, according to data compiled by Bloomberg News.

                         No Homes

     Liberty National, which features a $60 million glass and steel clubhouse with 32-foot high floor-to-ceiling windows, has remained operational mostly because it hasn’t had to rely on the sale of home sites along its fairways, Fireman said. The slumping housing market has led other high-priced course projects to be put on hold, including Woods’s Al Ruwaya Golf Course in Dubai.
     “We put ourselves in a financial position where we’re able to weather out the storm,” Fireman said. “We didn’t leverage the course or put ourselves in a position where we couldn’t operate.”
     The club recently raised its initiation fees from $450,000, after the opening of the clubhouse and the tournament had been secured.
     “It’s kind of tough not to justify that that’s when you should have a modest increase,” Fireman said. Since opening, the club has lost only two members, he said.

                      Televisions, Tickets

     Without Woods, the tournament and the club wouldn’t be in the position they’re in this week. Regardless of the 124 others in the field, Woods is the player who affects the bottom line the most. Television viewership increases by as much as 50 percent when he plays and ticket sales have risen as much as 40 percent since he announced his plans to play this week. About 100,000 spectators are expected to attend the four competition rounds starting Aug. 27.
     “Without him, you wouldn’t truly be having a championship,” Fireman said. “With him, you now truly have the world’s best competing. He definitely completes the whole story.”

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Barclays, Tiger and Liberty National
« Reply #60 on: August 26, 2009, 02:42:56 PM »
Mark,
'Milking' the exposure is one thing, making it cheesy is another.  ;)
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Mark Woodger

Re: Barclays, Tiger and Liberty National
« Reply #61 on: August 26, 2009, 02:51:12 PM »
Mark,
'Milking' the exposure is one thing, making it cheesy is another.  ;)

Whats thats saying "One mans Trash is another man's treasury?"  Maybe we should change it to "one mans milk is another mans  cheese"?  ;D ;D


PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Barclays, Tiger and Liberty National
« Reply #62 on: August 26, 2009, 03:07:03 PM »
Whose doing the broadcast btw?

I pray to God its not Nantz because the cliche/azz-kssing/flowery references will likely be off the charts.

P.P.S.  Just checked and it is CBS indeed....for the 1st time in history I just may have to mute the TV during a golf broadcast!!!

oh God ...that calls for a "Waxing Poetically" warning! :o
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Voytek Wilczak

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Barclays, Tiger and Liberty National
« Reply #63 on: August 26, 2009, 06:55:59 PM »
Is this course really that bad? I walked it many times when it was being built, and, yes, it has some of this Florida feel to it. I have not played it, just walked it, but having played a bunch of courses in Scotland and Ireland and a few on Long Island, I'd put LN somewhere in the middle of D scale. A nice driveable par 4, a cute postage stamp par 3, undulating greens, the course is not tricked up; some mounds do look artificial. A mixed bag, really.

Could it have been done better? Sure, but it would probably make it even more expensive to build. Bergstol was paid to take the dredgings, Fireman had to pay for his dirt.

And I think emotions are playing too big a role in this discussion, which I was hoping to be more technical from the architecture point of view.

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Barclays, Tiger and Liberty National
« Reply #64 on: August 26, 2009, 10:43:37 PM »

And I think emotions are playing too big a role in this discussion, which I was hoping to be more technical from the architecture point of view.

I know that I've had a terribly hard time finding the extra 1/2mil to join, but if I do I'll gladly give you my architectural anal-y-sis.  ;D
It would have been interesting if Frank Hannigan's idea came to fruition, the hype might have meant something then. 
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Barclays, Tiger and Liberty National
« Reply #65 on: August 26, 2009, 11:57:19 PM »
Just curious but on the LN website when describing Bob Cupp and his courses it mentions that his designs have hosted the US Open, US Amateur...I know Pumpkin Ridge hosted the AM and Settindown Creek had the Women's AM but what Cupp course hosted a US Open? 

Rob Rigg

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Barclays, Tiger and Liberty National
« Reply #66 on: August 27, 2009, 12:38:03 AM »
Pumpkin hosted the US Women's Open . . .

I do not recall any of his courses hosting the US Open.

Voytek Wilczak

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Barclays, Tiger and Liberty National
« Reply #67 on: August 27, 2009, 07:23:45 AM »
Some comments here from Mr Kite directed at golf architects who take a perfect piece of property and modify it as little as possible.

 ;)



Aug. 25, 2009
By Mike McAllister, PGATOUR.COM Managing Editor
JERSEY CITY, N.J. -- In the beginning, there was toxic waste. Contaminated garbage. Pollution and junk and sludge from the oil depots where the tankers used to dock during World War II. And in the air? The foulest of odors, the stench acting as an invisible security gate to keep away intruders -- not that anybody ever wanted to get near the place.

It was, in Bob Cupp's words, a "nightmare. We were pretty sure any travesty known to man was on this property."

Nightmares, of course, are something we generally like to avoid. But Cupp and his golf course design partner, Hall of Fame golfer Tom Kite, embraced this one. Where everybody else saw junk, they saw potential. Where everybody else saw an unusable wasteland, they saw 18 holes. Where everybody else saw a chance to run as far away as possible, they saw a chance to set up shop and work, to transform this ugliest of creatures into Cinderella.

Where everybody else saw only the junk scattered at their feet, Cupp and Kite looked farther out, to the tremendous views of the Statue of Liberty, standing just 1,000 yards away, her siren call beckoning them to help this "wretched refuse on this teeming shore," as The New Colossus poem that is part of the Statue's lore cries out.

This week, their creation gets its coming-out party, as Liberty National Golf Club hosts The Barclays. But while the focus is on golf and who will win the first event of the 2009 PGA TOUR Playoffs for the FedExCup, perhaps the most important story is the one already completed, how Cupp and Kite used their skills in building courses to turn this nightmare into an ecologically friendly 160 acres on the Jersey waterfront.

"Hopefully it kind of sets an example of what can be done to help revitalize an area," Kite said.

It wasn't easy. Visions of developing Liberty National first began in 1992. Maybe it was fate that Kite would eventually be involved, since that was the year he won his only major championship, the U.S. Open. Certainly it was well before it was chic to "go green" and do the right thing for the environment.

But Paul and Dan Fireman, the co-founders of Liberty National, had been involved in several golf course developments and considered the possibility to turn this old refinery site with the great Lady Liberty views into something spectacular. They brought in Kite and Cupp, giving the two plenty of financial support but never getting involved in the design process.

Plenty of obstacles existed. Imagine that you're trying to clean up a toxic waste site ... and yet you can't get rid of the garbage. Kite and Cupp learned that disturbing the refuse was even worse than letting it just sit there. So they had to build on top of it. That meant putting a plastic "umbrella" covering on top of the contaminated area, making sure it was waterproof, then pouring tons of clay on top, then adding a four-foot layer of sand to mold the course.

This is not the usual way golf courses are created nowdays, at least not the top-shelf ones, Kite noted.

"The big thing in golf course design right now is there's some minimalist design, finding a great piece of property and touch(ing) it as little as possible," he said. "This is light years on the other side of the spectrum. Everything out there is 100 percent created. Those guys that are ... only designing golf courses on perfect pieces of property and only touching them just a little bit, they would have run away from this site as quickly as a bull runs."

But while the property wasn't perfect, the views are, and that's what kept Kite and Cupp motivated. They knew if they could pull this one off, they not only would do their part to help save the planet, they'd also have one spectacular course that could not be matched. Stand on the tee at the par-3 second hole, and Lady Liberty's extended right arm provides a great sightline to the hole. If you hit a wayward shot, you half expect her to move her arm, the world's biggest marshal showing where your ball is headed.

Of course, Liberty National has come to be defined by its views, which is fine -- unless you've designed the course and would also like people to appreciate the actual ground they play on. That's the part that comes into play this week. With the PGA TOUR's best golfers cranking away for four days, Liberty National will be under the microscope. Will the course play as well as it looks?

Kite knows he will hear grumbling. In fact, he expects it, especially about a course that's still young and still evolving. "You have to be able to bitch a little bit," Kite said, smiling. "If you can't do it, you can't get your TOUR card.'

But he'll know next week, once the tournament is over and the real reviews pour in. Will players consider it a tough but fair course? That's what he wants to hear. For now, he feels like a proud papa who doesn't yet know if his kid will attend Penn State or a state penitentiary.

"At some point in time," Kite said, "you just have to turn the kids loose and let them go out and see how good they are."

Even if the reviews are not what Kite and Cupp want to hear, however, Liberty National's legacy from an environment and ecological standpoint are sealed. The course has given new life to a place that was dying. Where once was decay now stands L-93 hybrid bent grass on the tees and fairways and A4 hybrid bent grass on the greens, a spectacular clubhouse, access to nearby Liberty State Park, and a natural bird habitat.

"Golf," said Kite, "is a wonderful option when you get a tainted piece of property."

Not every golfer in this week's 124-man field may like the course. But they won't be able to argue that point.

         

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Barclays, Tiger and Liberty National
« Reply #68 on: August 27, 2009, 08:06:51 AM »
Another incomplete simplistic definition of minimal GCA. No wonder a few have turned a decent site into a toxic waste.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Barclays, Tiger and Liberty National
« Reply #69 on: August 27, 2009, 10:26:47 AM »
I can't recall another golf article where I've read more contradictions and fake mozarella than that one....


Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Barclays, Tiger and Liberty National
« Reply #70 on: August 27, 2009, 11:33:12 AM »
I will say though, I agree with Tom that building a golf course is one of the best use for "Superfund" sites. It is a kind of a place where you really don't want people living and turning that disaster area to something that is beautiful is to be admired.

Another interesting point - there are numerous Superfund sites like this all over the country. Many of them are located right on the water because they used to be refinery sites and needed to be close to a port. It would be nice to see other Superfund sites get converted.

JR Potts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Barclays, Tiger and Liberty National
« Reply #71 on: August 27, 2009, 08:44:44 PM »
Someone I know who is playing this week at LN thinks the golf course is terrible.

That said, I look forward to playing it.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Barclays, Tiger and Liberty National
« Reply #72 on: August 27, 2009, 10:21:24 PM »

Someone I know who is playing this week at LN thinks the golf course is terrible.

That said, I look forward to playing it.

Ryan,

It's not my cup of tea either.

I got the impression that there was an effort to mix and match, with splashes of Shadow Creek strewn over the entire site.

I don't understand all of the "hyping" by the announcers when it comes to the quality of the holes and the golf course in general.


Ed Oden

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Barclays, Tiger and Liberty National
« Reply #73 on: August 27, 2009, 10:57:13 PM »
For me, the course has that contrived desert oasis look that contrasts with the everpresent city skyline backdrop to produce the eerie feeling of one of those European Tour events in far off lands.  If I didn't know better, I'd swear this was Dubai or Kuala Lumpur.

Robert Mercer Deruntz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Barclays, Tiger and Liberty National
« Reply #74 on: August 27, 2009, 11:22:13 PM »
I have not played there yet, but did walk around the course sometime before seeding.  I find it hard to believe that the owners were so clueless as to fail to take some of the sand from the harbor dredging.  They easily could have recouped a good 50-70 milliion just like Bayonne.
   As for the club doing well to satisfy the membership--if so, then why are they so hurting for members that they had to fire the executive chef, general manager, and golf professional before the start of this season?   I have yet to meet anyone around metro-NY who has anything positive to say about the course.  Because sand was required for the capping of the site, the course being located on the water; and unreal opportunity for a true links course was lost.  Fortunately, a mile or two down the street, Bayonne got the feel right on a tight piece of property.