Barclays, Tiger and Liberty National

[Tim Gavrich]

I don't know...maybe Liberty National will make for a nice Tour venue.  The apparent marketing hyperbole aside, is the golf course really THAT dreadful?  In going through the website, It appears as if there's a good drivable par 4 down the stretch, and the course has a pretty good mix of par 3 yardages.  Is the disdain for it mostly marketing-based?

[Rob Rigg]

Does anyone know why/how Cupp got the design?

I enjoy Pumpkin Ridge - GC/WH, Crosswater and Beacon Hall are all good courses but with this "most spectacular site in the world ever invented" I wonder why they did not get a bigger name for the design.

Based on the photos on the LN website, it certainly has similarities to Ghost, Witch and Crosswater, with the mounding and use of small lakes or creeks by the greens.

The clubhouse is an abomination - it looks like a tacky office building and the NYC skyline does not make this "the bestest most awesome site ever" as touted on the website - IMO - To each his own.

[Jim_Kennedy]

I don't know...maybe Liberty National will make for a nice Tour venue.  The apparent marketing hyperbole aside, is the golf course really THAT dreadful?  In going through the website, It appears as if there's a good drivable par 4 down the stretch, and the course has a pretty good mix of par 3 yardages.  Is the disdain for it mostly marketing-based?

Do you prefer to make your own first impression or do you prefer to be told how good or how important a particular thing is?
The disdain for the marketing can end up discoloring the whole operation.

I almost gagged and I only heard less than 5 minutes of it. It soured me from ever 'caring' about the course.

[PThomas]

wow, that show sounds SO bad that part of me wishes i had seen it...kind of like a really bad movie, one thats so bad that you want to see just how bad bad can be!

[Tim Gavrich]

I don't know...maybe Liberty National will make for a nice Tour venue.  The apparent marketing hyperbole aside, is the golf course really THAT dreadful?  In going through the website, It appears as if there's a good drivable par 4 down the stretch, and the course has a pretty good mix of par 3 yardages.  Is the disdain for it mostly marketing-based?

Do you prefer to make your own first impression or do you prefer to be told how good or how important a particular thing is?
The disdain for the marketing can end up discoloring the whole operation.

I almost gagged and I only heard less than 5 minutes of it. It soured me from ever 'caring' about the course.

That's fair enough.  I did not see the TV spot myself; it certainly does sound like it ought to be seen to be truly believed.  I was just wondering more about the golf course itself.  I can certainly understand how the pretentiousness of the place could be so off-putting as to render the quality of the golf course less significant.

[Tim_Cronin]

wow, that show sounds SO bad that part of me wishes i had seen it...kind of like a really bad movie, one thats so bad that you want to see just how bad bad can be!

Paul, I'm with you. Sounds like it was the "Ishtar" of golf kiss-ups. Lavin has all the luck.

[Jim_Kennedy]

I was looking for the baseball results in The Daily News this morning and came across an article about LN. About the best thing anyone non-Tour Pro had to say was how beneficial it was to the environment. No Tour Pro was quoted as saying anything positive. Vijay said something to the effect that you shouldn't be caring about the architecture when playing an event.

One positive (besides Plainfield), it looks like Essex County CC is trying to bring the event to its course sometime in the future.   

[Steve_ Shaffer]

After seeing the tv infomercial. I requested a membership application. 

[Dan Kelly]

Looks like Bill Pennington at NY Times is a fan of the course...

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/27/sports/golf/27pennington.html?hpw

Does Bill Pennington count as a critic? I haven't read enough of his stuff to answer that -- but I don't recall reading anything from him that would qualify as "critical."

This is the closest thing to criticism in the current piece: "If there is a criticism of Liberty National, it is that it has a manufactured look. It does not look like a traditional premier Northeastern United States golf course, with a layout designed a century or more ago. And Liberty National is certainly not in vogue with the current minimalist trend in course architecture, which eschews engineering tricks to shape holes. Alas, at this site, where the natural environment disappeared many decades ago, that wasn’t an option."

Alas?

[Adam Clayman]

I've not seen the course, but, I wanted to.

When I called to ask to tour the course on a Monday when it was closed, I was greeted with questions about the rating process. After admitting that because I was only touring, and not playing, I could not give it a vote. At that point the person I spoke to said " Well, then I see no reason in giving you the tour".

Do I still want to see it? In the worst way. Upside down in a hammock.

[Dan Kelly]

Do I still want to see it? In the worst way. Upside down in a hammock.

Those engineers are clever, but I don't see how they're gonna manage that.

Alas.

[Paul Carey]

The Daily News article on LN and the pro's views.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/more_sports/2009/08/26/2009-08-26_all_not_happy_about_barclays_being_held_at_liberty_national_.html

"One prominent Tour player was saying earlier this year it would be the worst course his fellow golfers would play in 2009. Another quipped it will be the best course he'll play this week."

[Jim_Kennedy]

Paul,
Thanks for posting the article. It's gotta be one of the biggest golf investments to receive such faint praise. Maybe their week will work out for their good.

[Doug Wright]

From Geoff Ogilvy on Twitter:  "Mid pro am tweet. If we play the course with these tees and these pins, and this wind nobody will get anywhere near even par."

[Tom Dunne]

Oh, this is just spectacular. From the Hank Gola column:

"Course architects Bob Cupp and Tom Kite know their handiwork will be under the microscope. They are aware the course is yet to land on anyone's list of top-rated golf sites, which, says Kite, is fine with him.

"If you want to play that political game, and buy your way into a list, you can probably do that ... so the ratings I think are very misleading," he said.

So let me get this straight: Liberty National, which cost a quarter of a BILLION dollars and carries a punch-you-in-the-teeth marketing message that does everything short of claiming the course cures cancer, is speaking out against clubs that somehow "buy their way onto the list"?

Give. Me. A. Break.

[Paul Richards]

I did not see the special.

I did play the course.

It does have absolutely stunning views.  Along the lines of Pebble and Old Head, this course offers spectacular views all around.

That being said, the golf course is better than what I have been reading here.  We played it, enjoyed it, and then went along to Bayonne - which is a better course, albeit with less spectacular views. 

I felt that Bayonne was a very strong Modern course and Liberty is eligible to make the top 100 Modern list as well.

 

[Michael Blake]

Client is happy with the course.
Membership is happy with the course.
Area is happy with the course.
GCA nerds unhappy with course and infomercial.

At least Cupp and Kite pleased the 3 outta 4 that matter.   

[Tom Dunne]

Michael Blake,

These conversations don't take place in a vacuum. What makes you say the fourth group doesn't matter?

[Jim_Kennedy]

Client is happy with the course.
Membership is happy with the course.
Area is happy with the course.
GCA nerds unhappy with course and infomercial.

At least Cupp and Kite pleased the 3 outta 4 that matter.   

The first three have to be, the last doesn't

[Michael Blake]

Tom,

That group may matter, but it certainly doesn't matter as much as the first two, most especially the client.

Ask Art Hills if that group matters.  Everyone on this site (fourth group) seems to hate his courses, yet he's got hundreds in the ground and offices worldwide.

[Tom Dunne]

Michael,

Of course you're right, but I don't see what it adds to the conversation.

[Rob Rigg]

The reclamation aspect of the article is pretty cool - and must have cost a hefty chunk of the overall number (did the 250M include the clubhouse?).

Since it is a private club, it does not really matter where it shoes up in the rankings, I am sure a bunch of rich guys from the City and Jersey will join just for the cache, but Kite's comment about "trying to buy rankings" is just ridiculous. C'mon guys, tell it like it is.

[Jim_Kennedy]

I've enjoyed the several Art Hills course that I had a chance to play. He may not make the Top 100 (none this year) but, like Ted Robinson (he did make it this year), it's palatable for a broad market.

Don't you ever get sick of the marketing crap? I haven't seen an 'announcement' for a golf course on this site or gone to a new club's website that doesn't include some of the most self-serving and supercilious hype imaginable.

Yuck!  

[Tom Dunne]

Rob: Liberty National paid for the harbor dredgings, Bayonne was paid for same. That should say something...

There may be a happy client and membership here, but not everyone in "the area" is necessarily thrilled about the Tour ditching a classic course and club that supported them for four decades in favor of something that mainly looks good from a blimp. I suppose the Tour and LN aren't the strangest of bedfellows, but still. The LPGA pulled the same business burning bridges with ShopRite at Seaview in favor of an Annika event that lasted how many years? One? Two? Greed is sometimes a tacky thing to witness.

[Richard Choi]

I used to love this segment on Sesame Street...

One of these is not like the other, one of these is not like the other...

Westchester CC
Ridgewood
Plainfield
Liberty National

Has Bob Cupp built a course of note since he parted ways with John Fought? I like Crosswater and Pumpkin Ridge, but most of what I sampled since they went on their separate ways have been quite dissapointing, especially the Golf Club at Newcastle here in Seattle area. On the contrary, I have enjoyed John Fought's many courses since he went on his own.