Barclays, Tiger and Liberty National

[Chris Moore]

I have asked this before, but why should any normal golfer give credence to course criticism offered by a touring professional?  Their collective perspective is skewed towards scoring, and any architectural feature that gets in the way of scoring is going to be criticized as "unfair" or "tricked up".   

[Voytek Wilczak]

I have asked this before, but why should any normal golfer give credence to course criticism offered by a touring professional?  Their collective perspective is skewed towards scoring, and any architectural feature that gets in the way of scoring is going to be criticized as "unfair" or "tricked up".   

Normal golfers want to score, too.

 

[tlavin]

It is a great use of toxic land, just like the Harborside complex here in Chicago and the soon to open Chicago Highlands, set atop a dump next to an interstate highway, but just because it has an architecturally significant club house and "iconic" views (the statue of Liberty, the NY skyline, etc.) doesn't mean that the golf course is something special.  The course itself looks fairly vanilla to me in photographs and on television and, unless they hang flagsticks in bunkers and run the greens at 15 on the Stimp, the pros will do what pros do to vanilla layouts.

[Tim Bert]

The course itself looks fairly vanilla to me in photographs and on television and, unless they hang flagsticks in bunkers and run the greens at 15 on the Stimp, the pros will do what pros do to vanilla layouts.

Is anyone watching the tournament today that can comment on which of two tricks referenced above were implemented.  I've only checked in once online, but it appears the field is moving backwards today rather rapidly.  Not sure if it is the set-up, the weather, the pins in the bunker, or something else... but something harsh has to be going on out there today.

[Derek_Duncan]

After reading this thread and the few others about LN, I still haven't a sense of what the golf course is like. It seems to have stirred up some emotion, and certain people seem to have negative opinions about it, many of which have little to do with the golf course, routing, hole strategies, etc.

This is essentially what I've gleaned:

It's like Florida golf
It's narrow (not exactly sure what this means)
Chipping areas are bent grass and mown out to bunker edges (this is a positive, imo)
Some mounding looks artificial
Great views
It's not Bayonne

Does anyone have any specific opinions or observations on the golf course and how it plays. If it sucks, why? I get that it's not Bayonne, but surely there are other ways to talk about it.

What about it rankles the pros so much? I haven't heard this much grumbling since the match play at Nicklaus's new Ritz-Carlton Dove Mountain Course, and there the complaints were primarily about the big green undulations.

[Kalen Braley]

I'm guessing what rankling them by what i've seen so far:

The greens and thier undulating design where they can't run alot of putts in.
The chipping areas that most of the greens seem to shed off to.

They are used to seeing narrow
They are used to seeing tons of bunkering
They are used to playing in the wind.

I don't think they like undulating topsy turvy greens because all good players seem to bitch about them....even at RCCC!!   

[Michael Blake]

What about it rankles the pros so much? I haven't heard this much grumbling since the match play at Nicklaus's new Ritz-Carlton Dove Mountain Course, and there the complaints were primarily about the big green undulations.

There's a common denominator between the Ritz-Carlton course, Liberty National, and a course the pros will be playing in a future U.S Open (Chambers Bay)

Anyone care to guess what it is?

[Jim_Kennedy]

Same builder for all three.

[Bruce Katona]

The field is backing up in the event because it has been raining all day here, thus the 7400 yards course length with the breeze off the Harbor is playing every inch of that length.

[Ted Kramer]

I'd don't consider myself to be anything even close to a GCA snob . . .
I think the course looks terribly boring on tv.

-Ted

[Michael Blake]

Same builder for all three.

Bing, bing, bing.

www.heritage-links.com

[Brad Fleischer]

Well I am just back from todays proceedings at LN. The weather wrecked havoc on the morning groups and even into some of the early afternoon rounds as well. On 17 Jerry kelly laced driver laced 3 wood and was still short, after his approach he turned, smiled, laughed out loud and stated "wow you have to be kidding me" That pretty much sums it up for the morning groups. The afternoon looked to be gloomy as well but the rain died down as did the wind and I witnessed some better golf. I was lucky enough to get pretty close to the action and this is what I can gather.

The players think the fairways are more narrow than they are typically used to and truthfully walking the course with my friends I was not the only one who said geez these landings areas leave no room for error. I think at some spots they were 15 yards tops. That was also a few of the pro's position's to as I was able to overhear some conversations amongst the players and this topic came up a few times.

The greens are undulating but they do not give you the option of running the ball up to certain if not all pin positions. You must carry the ball and if you are off by a yard or two your ball A) will wind up 20 plus feet from the pin or B) roll off the green completely down the tightly mowed banks.

Personally other than the views and one or two holes the course after seeing it for two days really did nothing for me. However my non GCA friends were all goo goo with one even having the audacity to say it reminded him of Shinnecock , I was like what are you nuts !! He replies no really I am serious look at the fescue in the rough . Head biff . 

I think it goes to show you what views and conditions will make people think.  All this however does not mean it cant be a real challenge even more so when the wind's up.

My penny's worth

Brad

[Voytek Wilczak]

So what does the treehouse think?

Were Harrington and Poulter "nudged" by the PGATour to say these things for LN to save face?

Or they don't know anything about GCA?

It's one or the other.

Discuss.

By MARK CANNIZZARO

August 29, 2009

After some muttering, sarcastic comments and rolled eyes by some players when asked about Liberty National, a rather prominent player yesterday called for a major championship to be played at this controversial venue.

"This is a phenomenal golf course," three-time major winner Padraig Harrington said after shooting 75 yesterday. "I think this is good enough for a major. This is a major golf course we are playing here. This is a superb test. It really puts us right on the limit. This is exactly what we should be playing.

"If you want us to shoot 20-under, yeah, there's other golf courses, but it's like playing a major out there. I'd love to see a major here in time."

Ian Poulter concurred, saying, "A few of the greens might be a tiny bit severe, [but] I'm sure with a little bit of changing, tweaking here and there on a couple of the holes [Liberty could host a major]. It's a hell of a golf course."

[Wade Whitehead]

Maybe OT:

Today I played in round one of my club championship.  Guys in my group were talking about Liberty National.

These aren't GCA guys.  They probably can't name more than two or three architects.  Most of this thread (and, probably, the site) would be uninteresting to them.  They just play (and watch golf).

To a man, they love the golf course.  They think it's cool to see the City in the background, to have views of the statue, and to have closely mown areas around the green.  Once or twice, I talked about other, more "GCA" features (like the cart path configuration), but they couldn't have cared less.

Liberty National is a great example of a course that 99% of people associated with the game find interesting but that many here wouldn't want.

WW

[Kenny Baer]

I don't get any of the comments calling it "uninteresting".  It may be alot of things but boring is not one of them.  The mounding (whether you like it or not) makes the course compelling; the reachable par 5's and the 2 drivable par 4's are interesting and I expect a exciting finish. 

My disappointment with this course is that it could have been anything it wanted to be; money did not matter, land did not matter; it was 100% up to the archie and the owner's. 
What they chose was a .....  ______________?  I guess they were going for a course that would be exciting and difficult for PGA tour players.  Is it what I would have done...NO.  You wonder what Kite and Cupp were thinking?  This is most likely the course that they will be known for forever and they choose to create a course that is ....hard to define.....Doral with the mounding of Sawgrass...but neat views?

[Michael Blake]

Had a good day at LN today.  Breakfast at 9AM in maintenance area tent with LN super Greg James (formerly of Painfield and also a Penn State turfer) and Jon O of Heritage Links.  Walked course at 9:30.  Play didn't begin until maybe 10:30 or 11:00 so it was pretty empty (holes weren't even cut yet)  Saw Peter Oosterhaus sitting in a golf cart taking notes.  I asked him what he thought of the course.  He said it's difficult and reminds him (and PGA Tour players) of a U.S. Open course where you HAD to hit the fairways and HAD to hit the greens in right places or at least miss them in the right places.

Later during play on #12 (I think) green Joe Ogilvy holed out and stood next to me while the others holed out.  I prompted him.  He said the course is very hard.  I asked why.  He said the fairways are VERY narrow and the greens are VERY difficult--tough to score well under those circumstances.

The course looks different in person than on TV, as I'm sure they all do.  You notice more ripples in the fairways.  And you notice MUCH more movement in the greens.  Lots of undulations that you're unable to notice on TV. 

Hard to get a 'feel' for the course in just a few hours of walking it but you certainly get a different 'feel' from this course than you normally do on a golf course.  There are alot of distractions.  Not simply The Statue of Liberty or the skyline, but the condo tower residences, the shipyard, the buildings, the cranes, the warehouses, the huge lighting of a nearby park/field. These are things you see while on the course. It felt like Jersey City.

The fairways are TIGHT. 

The two things that stood out to me were 1) PHIL is the slowest player ever and 2) the green complexes looked pretty darn interesting. 

When I got tired of walking around in the drizzle, it was back to the maintenance area for some beers with the real heroes.  I learned alot today...I applaud ALL superintendants and their crews.

[Peter Pallotta]

Hey Michael, knock off that informed opinion angle, will ya - you're embarrasing me.

Good post. I was going to ask if - Statue of Liberty aside - it reminded anyone else of a golf course in China

Peter

[Dave Bourgeois]

When I first saw it on TV I thought it was the Steve Wynn course or Shadow Creek or something.  It had that kind of vibe to me.  At least the greens looked kind of cool. 

On TV it looked cramped as well... Reminded me of a "model" if that make sense.  Foe those that have played it, is it cramped and does it seem out of scale?

(First post in a year....be gentle)

[cary lichtenstein]

If I hear the announcers praise the NY skyline one more time, I think I'm going to puke

[Voytek Wilczak]

Funny line from Ernie Els on the 9th hole today.

He hit his drive into a pretty gnarly rough; the ball was barely visible.

When he got to his ball, he said to the spotter kid who put his little flag next to the ball: "You had all this time and you're giving me this shit?". The gallery goes - "Yeah, kid, why didn't you kick it back into the fairway; what kind of Ernie's Army are you"? The kid says - "The PGA Tour guy was watching me all the time...". 

The course is a strange one - it is very much an urban golf course. You hear police/ambulance sirens, traffic, etc. Probably due to weather the galleries were thin this morning (there was a steady drizzle) and you could get close to the players. Even Tiger.

Green complexes were interesting, but the collection areas looked the same on many greens and kind of artificial.

Regarding GCA I think the client requested a tough TPC type of a golf course, and that's what he got.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Kenny Baer,

I think you make some valid points, especially about unlimited funds and the choice of architect.

However, the PGA Tour is only here for four days, then the members and guests get to play it.

It would appear that it was always intended to be a real estate development with an adjacent golf course for convenience.

Dave Bourgeouis,

Playing the course gives you the impression that there was an attempt to import the "Shadow Creek" element to Jersey City.
Both sites were plain canvases, and there seems to have been a desire to "glitz up" the golf course, internally, while taking advantage of the views of the harbor and New York Skyline.

I just don't get the desire to make the course so difficult for the members.
Who wants water flanking or bisecting so many holes ?
Who wants narrow fairways flanked by mounds ?

FWIW, If I was going to try to replicate something on that site, I would have tried to replicate GCGC.

[Jay Flemma]

FWIW, If I was going to try to replicate something on that site, I would have tried to replicate GCGC.

Amen brother!

[Doug Ralston]

I am trying to understand the problem with 'over-manufactured' golf courses. If a GCA is presented with a boring property, and told to make an interesting course regardless of budget, should they not do whatever is needed to accomplish just that? While I agree certain nice property calls for a simple layout, many must start with a dearth of flavor, and if that is what you have, that is what you use, yes?

I listen to Phil Michelson rave about the course, and I laughed at what must be thought here.

Doug

[Patrick_Mucci]

Doug,

I don't think it's "over manufacturing" per se, that's objected to, as opposed to the quality of the finished product.

Certainly Bayonne, a totally manufactured golf course, gets different reviews.

A good deal of NGLA is manufactured, especially at the green sites, but, I haven't heard many complaints about the quality of the product.

It's how the manufacturing turns out that seems to be the critical evaluative test.

[Doug Ralston]

Pat;

I was, as i said, listening to Phil talk about the great 'shot values' etc of LN. While he is not [as far as I know] a GCA, he does have a certain expertise one must acknowledge. Of course, he also has advertising contracts ..... would they make him give so strong an opinion not really his own?

This all DOES make me look forward to 2015 US Open on a course that many here acknowledge as quality GCA.

And I have only played two courses that have often been called 'over-manufactured' here?. I loved both. Perhaps I was lucky? It would have been difficult, IMHO, to have built Victoria National [thank you again John!] without a lot of earth moving, on that quarry land. And Eagle Eye up in Lansing was bland farmland that was totally transformed into some really challenging, fun, and some unique holes. I am not saying that every course requires maximal movement to reach great plability, but sometime it WILL be called for.

I am very eclectic in pratically all fields, including the field waiting to be a golf course.

Doug