The hardest set of greens I have every seen: Crystal Downs

[Chip Gaskins]

I certainly don't want to hijack George's other Crystal Downs thread which has a great discussion and some fantastic pictures of the whole course, but I did want to take a little different direction and talk exclusively about the greens at Crystal Downs. 

To me they are the most perplexing thing I may have ever seen in golf.

I have never ever been so baffled by a set of greens, Oakmont, Prairie Dunes, Augusta, nowhere like I was at Crystal Downs.  I was utterly lost.  I must have 4 and 5 putted half a dozen times. 

I suppose some could say they are over the top, but we played with Fred Muller the long time head pro (and overall one of the best folks I have ever met in golf) and he had absolutely no problem with them.  Obviously they are something you can master.

I would love to hear the lowest round on a first time play.

When you look at them from 20 yards out you don’t see very many (at least I don’t) of the subtle breaks.  For that matter standing over the putts you see very little of the breaks.  However you hit a putt and it goes off in a completely different direction and you just scratch your head. 

Obviously greens that have lots of grain in them (bermuda greens in the south) can/does have this effect as well as places that are perched on the side of hills (Olympic, Denver courses, etc) but at Crystal Downs it was like there was some sort of magnet on every green pulling balls against what you see.

#2 looking back


#5
I lined up my putt here of 20 feet and Fred stopped me and pointed 45 degrees in a different direction.  He was right.


#6
A bit of a thumbprint in this one


#7
From behind the green.  I made birdie!


#8
You mow this green to more than 10 on the stimp you could probably only pin half of it, that is, or never get a ball above the hole.


#11
This is the poster child for my thoughts on these greens. For the most part this green looks benign with a dead center pin yet I four putted.  Just baffling.


#12


#13
Another green with a few impossible places to put pins.



#15
This one was actually fairly beign…or at least I was able to keep to a three putt!


#17
I made bridge here, thankfully my birdies we approach shots inside a few feet versus actually having to putt!.


#18


All in all simply the most perplexing set of greens I have ever seen.  Not overly fast (Augusta)…no huge internal contours…no major tilts in either direction (Oakmont) just greens that look easy and play extremely hard!

[Adam Clayman]

Chip, I shot 81 on my initial visit. I'm a 14.4 index.

Just like my trip around rustic Canyon the first time, it required using all of one's tools to read those greens, especially your feet.

[Phil_the_Author]

Chip,

How would you compare them to Fenway's?

[Mike Sweeney]

And Gaskins takes a small lead over Mayhugh!

[Jim Colton]

Chip,

  I only played the back nine but did not make a single par.  I too found the greens to be baffling, only made worse by seeing my host get up and down from EVERYWHERE.  I hit some chip shots that I thought were pretty good, only to have my host utter 'Uh Oh' immediately after I hit it.  Not a good sign.  You have to admire green complexes that are in your head before you even reach the tee.  The next morning back at Kingsley, I was missing putts badly in every which direction, simply because CD's greens were still messing with me.

[Wyatt Halliday]

#13
Another green with a few impossible places to put pins.

.....and so my nightmare makes it to the pages of a golfclubatlas thread.

Thanks Chip.

[Chip Gaskins]

Adam-

Great score there!  You obvisouly are a fantastic putter and reader of greens/conditions.

Phillip-

I have not.  I have heard great things about it on here though.

Sweeney

Who is this Mayhugh character you speak of 

I still can't really articulate how these greens really play...they looks so simple.  Its not like places that get in your head before you get there and you know you will be happy with only a few three putts.  Here you look at the green from the fairway after your approach shot and think, great a 20 footer, I can give it a run...followed by putting it off the green (twice!, like I did at #1).

[Paul OConnor]

First, and only, time around, I shot 76 with 30 putts.  Had two three putts and eight one putts.  Maybe that's why I had so much fun.
Most of the one putts were getting up and down from just off the green.  

[Adam Clayman]

Adam-

Great score there!  You obvisouly are a fantastic putter and reader of greens/conditions.

Actually, I rarely played for the greens if I was out side 200 yards. And if I was outside, I played my 185 iron which bounced and rolled on that fabulous turf to within a reasonably close distance to the putting surface.

Case in point, 1st hole. I was 210 to the front left pin. I played first and hit the low running 185 shot that ended up below the hole at the very front corner of the green. My host, hit the green pin high right, and was just beside himself in grief as he walked up to the green. One of the other players in the group was a 76 year old semi retired Doc who shot 73, putting lights out side saddle.

Watching the other balls interface with gravity was key in my success.

[Wyatt Halliday]

Chip,

I hope you don't mind me using another one of your pics to make a point.

Matt MacIver,
If you are looking in, this is what I'm talking about. This photo is of the back right portion of five green. It paints a better picture of what I was trying to articulate earlier.

#5
I lined up my putt here of 20 feet and Fred stopped me and pointed 45 degrees in a different direction.  He was right.

[Jeff_Brauer]

The CD greens are great, but do we really need to get down to a comparitive ranking of greens only?

[Chip Gaskins]

Jeff-

I hear you, I wasn't trying to rank their "greatness" I was simply saying they were the most perplexing greens I have every played.

[astavrides]

Chip, I shot 81 on my initial visit. I'm a 14.4 index.

You played to about 50% of that index during that match we had. 

[RSLivingston_III]

I think my best round is still my first at CD, maybe a couple over my handicap.
I had three seeing eye dogs (members) telling me EXACTLY where to hit every shot and what was going to happen.
You HAVE to keep the ball below the pin but the hard part is knowing where below the pin is...

[RSLivingston_III]

Chip,

  I only played the back nine but did not make a single par.  I too found the greens to be baffling, only made worse by seeing my host get up and down from EVERYWHERE.  I hit some chip shots that I thought were pretty good, only to have my host utter 'Uh Oh' immediately after I hit it.  Not a good sign.  You have to admire green complexes that are in your head before you even reach the tee.  The next morning back at Kingsley, I was missing putts badly in every which direction, simply because CD's greens were still messing with me.

CD members are some of the best chippers and pitchers of the ball you will ever meet.
What was really terrifying was having them tell you to putt the ball off the green over "here" is that you might be able to get it into the hole in only two more putts.

[JC Jones]

The first time I played out there, 2 years ago, I shot 83.  This most recent time, Ed Getka witnessed me post at least 20 shots higher than that.

[Tom_Doak]

Adam:

That "76-year-old retired doc" you played with, Roy Vomastek, was one of the top ten senior players in America a few years ago.  And he's played Crystal Downs about 2,000 times.


Chip:

We have never met, so forgive me for asking:  are you a blind golfer?

I understand that guests routinely under-read the break on greens at Crystal Downs, because they are not used to the overall tilt of them; your last comment indicates that you fall into that camp.  But if the eleventh green really looked benign to you and baffled you, then you must have 20/100 vision and no feeling in your feet.  It's got more than five feet of elevation change from back to front!  [As do #1 and #2.]

I always tell people that I put Crystal Downs right up there with Oakmont, Augusta, and Oakland Hills as having the hardest set of greens in the world.  [I'll try to think about the rest of a top ten.]  But, I do not understand why the greens at Crystal are any less obviously difficult than any of the others, except for the fact that you haven't seen pros looking foolish on TV there.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Tom,

Is it possible that CD greens are harder to read than Oakmont or Oakland Hills because they sit in hillier ground, which might affect perception of overall slope?

[JC Jones]

Tom,

Is it possible that CD greens are harder to read than Oakmont or Oakland Hills because they sit in hillier ground, which might affect perception of overall slope?

I was going to say something similar, only that they fit more naturally with the landscape than the other greens mentioned.  You look at those greens and they just fit with the landscape so well that their severity is conflated with the rolling terrain.  Whereas, and granted I haven't played those courses, the greens appear to be "built" as compared to the rest of the surrounding landscape.

[Chip Gaskins]

Chip:

We have never met, so forgive me for asking:  are you a blind golfer?

I understand that guests routinely under-read the break on greens at Crystal Downs, because they are not used to the overall tilt of them; your last comment indicates that you fall into that camp.  But if the eleventh green really looked benign to you and baffled you, then you must have 20/100 vision and no feeling in your feet.  It's got more than five feet of elevation change from back to front!  [As do #1 and #2.]

I always tell people that I put Crystal Downs right up there with Oakmont, Augusta, and Oakland Hills as having the hardest set of greens in the world.  [I'll try to think about the rest of a top ten.]  But, I do not understand why the greens at Crystal are any less obviously difficult than any of the others, except for the fact that you haven't seen pros looking foolish on TV there.

Tom-

Nice!  No I am not blind.  I obviously saw and felt the tilt on #1 and #2 but had no idea it would effect the putt as much as it did.  I tried to learn quick, but it still was hard to see all the breaks...especially the right side of #5.  Obviously I missed the tilt on #11, actually it was a nasty internal contour right by the pin that got me.

I suspect you have played there so many times you fall into the camp of being very experienced and now probably find it hard to see it the way first timers do, but how about your first round?  How did you do then?

The greens simply look much flatter to me than Augusta and Oakmont (I never played Oakland Hills).  Maybe it is because the type of grass on them.  Bents grasses always look more intimidating to me than pao, bermuda, etc..

Chip

[Sean_A]

Chip



Where were you aiming on #5?  45 degrees wrong seems like a serious misjudgment.  

It looks like that green runs very hard (dives!) to the corner just out of sight on the left.  

Question, does the green gather back in a titch just to the right (as seen in the pic) of the bunker closest to the pin AND fade toward the bunker 3 or four feet further on?

Question, is there a swale just short of the pimple to the right and well short of the pin (as seen in the pic)?  That pimple and the one short and left of the pin look to help the funnel effect to the back right {just out of the picture on the left).

Ciao

[Tom_Doak]

Jeff / JC :

Yes, Crystal Downs is fairly hilly -- and more importantly, not always in the same direction -- so it is a prime spot to misjudge slopes.  Many of Oakmont's greens lay on the ground just as much as Crystal Downs, for example the fallaways at #1 and 10 and 12 -- but everything on those holes is generally sloping the same way, so perhaps you are less likely to get fooled than at the Downs.

Chip:

The first year or two I played at Crystal Downs were 20 years ago, and the speeds were never up to 10 on the Stimpmeter, so I had some opportunity to get used to them.  That, and it's well documented that I am above average at reading greens.  One of the things that I nearly always do is walk parallel to the line of my putt to get a sense of the exact distance, and at the same time, try to feel with my feet how the green is sloping.  [I heard Tom Watson say something to the same effect 25-30 years ago and it has worked quite well for me.]  Crystal Downs is certainly one of those places where it pays to putt softly on the higher line to the hole.  Prairie Dunes is another that should definitely be on this list.

[David Kelly]

Chip,

You left out #10 and in my short time at Crystal Downs I have seen multiple putts roll off that green.  It also seemed to have the fewest pinnable spots.

[Mike Boehm]

I'd agree that they were the most perplexing set I've ever played.  Crystal is the only place I've ever lined up a 20 foot putt with the thought "how can I keep this out of that bunker?"  They are a lot of fun to putt on.

The only course I have plaed of comparable difficulty is Oakland Hills.  But, at Oakland, I typically have a good idea of what the ball is going to do = both becuase I find them easier to read and I am accompanied by a long time member when I play there.  It becomes a matter of execution - which isn't easy on slopes that large/fast.  At Crystal, there were a handful of times where my reads weren't even close and despite hitting putts as intended, I left myself with 2nd putts almost as long as the 1st.  I'd love to get another crack at them some day.

[George Pazin]

I've been told that 4 and 5 putts on vexing greens are impossible. Even the lowliest among us merely 3 putt at the same rate...