[Jim Colton]

Now that Rock Creek has been open for a little while, hopefully some more folks have had the chance to play it.  I know Rock Creek didn't show up on Golf's 50/50 list, but I'm guessing that has to do with sample size.  Shiv has had very high praise for the course.  Jim Franklin just called it a '10'.  For those who have played it, where does Rock Creek stack up with other modern courses you've played?

[Jim Franklin]

It goes to the top of the list. I loved it. My list at the top includes Sand Hills, Pacific Dunes, Victoria National, Ballyneal, Friars Head, Sebonack, Wade Hampton, Kingsley Club, Black Rock, Gozzer Ranch, Old Sandwich, Bandon Trails, Bandon Dunes, Shadow Creek...

It is that good.

[Tom Huckaby]

It goes to the top of the list. I loved it. My list at the top includes Sand Hills, Pacific Dunes, Victoria National, Ballyneal, Friars Head, Sebonack, Wade Hampton, Kingsley Club, Black Rock, Gozzer Ranch, Old Sandwich, Bandon Trails, Bandon Dunes, Shadow Creek...

It is that good.

yeah yeah yeah.  He already mentioned you.  We want to hear from some who DON'T follow shivas like a lapdog.

 

[Kalen Braley]

Rock Creek also goes into my top 10 played as well.  Its nothing short of a fantastic course and if given the chance to play it, its deinfitly worth the effort even though it is remote.  I put it neck and neck with Ballyneal even though I give Ballyneal the slight edge just cause its a little more playable for a hacker like me!!   

I'll post up a few pics today when I get some time so we can all oooohhh  and ahhhhh!!! 

[Andy Troeger]

Rock Creek is at or near the top of my list in terms of modern courses as well and my top five overall.

[Jim Franklin]

It goes to the top of the list. I loved it. My list at the top includes Sand Hills, Pacific Dunes, Victoria National, Ballyneal, Friars Head, Sebonack, Wade Hampton, Kingsley Club, Black Rock, Gozzer Ranch, Old Sandwich, Bandon Trails, Bandon Dunes, Shadow Creek...

It is that good.

yeah yeah yeah.  He already mentioned you.  We want to hear from some who DON'T follow shivas like a lapdog.

 

Sometimes you have to give credit where credit is due  .

[Tom Huckaby]

Sometimes, yes.  To that source, never.

 

BTW.. this thread now has two guys who apparently do not point the plane to Montana.  So far the score is 2-2.

[Tom_Doak]

I would put it in the top five courses we have built.  I don't know where it belongs in that top five, but I think the only thing that holds it back is that a wild shot can potentially wind up on a rocky lie instead of a sandy lie.  [And, of course, you can turn over a golf cart much more easily than any of my other five.]

I think that's better than Jim Franklin's list, although being rated up there with Black Rock is high praise indeed.  

[Ben Sims]

Tom,

On another thread you mentioned that RC3 was your hardest construction site.  What made it harder than Stone Eagle?  They seem very similar, with the the extreme topography making Stone Eagle quite challenging.

As far as the five you're referring to:

Pac Dunes
Barnbougle
Cape Kidnappers
Ballyneal
Rock Creek

[Garland Bayley]

...

I think that's better than Jim Franklin's list, although being rated up there with Black Rock is high praise indeed. 

Judging by the number of Black Rock logoed golf balls that we found at Indian Canyon, it seems that when those guys want to play something good they head into Spokane.
 

[George Freeman]

I think that's better than Jim Franklin's list, although being rated up there with Black Rock is high praise indeed.  

Could he be talking about Brian Silva's Black Rock in MA?  I assume you're talking about Black Rock in Idaho...

[Tom_Doak]

Ben:

I'm not allowed to list all five of my top five golf courses in the same time and place, or a few other clients would be mad at me.  But, I'm not using that as a cover to claim ten courses in my top five.  I'm saying that Rock Creek is either better than one of the courses you named, and/or better than Sebonack and Stone Eagle and St. Andrews Beach and Lost Dunes, which are all in my top ten.

Rock Creek was harder to build than Stone Eagle because granite is the hardest of rocks.  Stone Eagle required more creativity and more changes, because the site was so steep, but dealing with all of the boulders in Montana was harder and slower.  Eric Iverson built both of them, so you could ask him.

George F:

I assumed Jim meant the course in Idaho, because he mentioned he'd played it on another thread.  I was not rolling my eyes at the Brian Silva course, which I haven't seen.

[Andy Troeger]

If Rock Creek is my top three moderns, Black Rock (ID) is in the top ten. I'm sure some of you will dismiss my comments since I admittedly enjoy Jim Engh's work and most of his other courses, but having played it now I'm comfortable with Golf Digest's current ranking of the course.

Jim F also is referring to the ID course.

[Jim Franklin]

If Rock Creek is my top three moderns, Black Rock (ID) is in the top ten. I'm sure some of you will dismiss my comments since I admittedly enjoy Jim Engh's work and most of his other courses, but having played it now I'm comfortable with Golf Digest's current ranking of the course.

Jim F also is referring to the ID course.

I do not know why Black Rock does not get any love from this site. Everyone loves the crazy stuff Mike Strantz did, but if Jim Engh does something wild, it is no good. How many people here have played it? I thought it was terrific.

As you see by my list, I have four Doak courses ahead of it. I love Tom's work and have not seen all of them. With a 4 year old and two other single digit kids on my hands, traveling to see his overseas work may not happen for a while. I like my list and stand by it. Rock Creek is #1.

[Tom_Doak]

Jim F.:  I apologize for misunderstanding your list ... I thought you were equating Rock Creek to the others you listed.  I had no idea that was the order you ranked them and you put Rock Creek above them all.  That is a very strong statement, stronger even than its designer would make.

As for Black Rock, I only toured the course, did not play it.  Actually, though, you couldn't pay me to go back there and play it.  It's just the dead opposite of the sort of architecture I like.  That is not a statement about Shot Values or Memorability or Conditioning, just a matter of Taste.

[Tom Huckaby]

I had no idea that was the order you ranked them and you put Rock Creek above them all.  That is a very strong statement, stronger even than its designer would make.

Shivas - read it  - learn it - live it.  And you wonder why eye-rolling occurs at your hyperbole?

 

[Kalen Braley]

My top 5 modern looks like this.

1)  Pac Dunes
2)  Ballyneal
3)  Rock Creek CC
4)  Wine Valley
5)  MPCC - Shore

I will concur with Jim and Andy that Black Rock is a terrific course even though it uses many of his same templates schemes....they are very fun to interface and play.  The stretch from 10-14 is everything its cracked up to be and more and of the 4 Engh courses I've played this is easily his best one....

[Garland Bayley]

Kalen,

You're such a bunker slut! Slag would be proud of you!
 

[Tom_Doak]

Huck:

Of course, as designer, it is not so easy for me to play favorites.

As it happens, I am trying to choose where to go for a relaxing weekend at the end of this month.  I'm torn between going to Rock Creek or Ballyneal.  [Though I am NOT flying private in either case.]  I suppose it's not a fair comparison though, since I've been to Bandon plenty of times over the past 2-3 years.

[DMoriarty]

It goes to the top of the list. I loved it. My list at the top includes Sand Hills, Pacific Dunes, Victoria National, Ballyneal, Friars Head, Sebonack, Wade Hampton, Kingsley Club, Black Rock, Gozzer Ranch, Old Sandwich, Bandon Trails, Bandon Dunes, Shadow Creek...

It is that good.

yeah yeah yeah.  He already mentioned you.  We want to hear from some who DON'T follow shivas like a lapdog.

 

I don't follow shivas like a lapdog. I don't often agree with him and when I do it is usually grounds to reconsider my position.    I don't rate courses and so I won't, but Rock Creek is an excellent golf course worthy of mention with the best modern courses.    It has some crazy good holes, few if any weak ones, flows nicely, fits perfectly into its surrounds, and uses what nature provided as well as any.   It really ought to redefine our expectations when it comes to so-called mountain courses or courses on what normally would be considered to be very difficult sites.    

I do not know why Black Rock does not get any love from this site. Everyone loves the crazy stuff Mike Strantz did, but if Jim Engh does something wild, it is no good. How many people here have played it? I thought it was terrific.

I don't want to tarnish thread on Rock Creek with a conversation on Black Rock.  They don't compare, the contrast.  What is great about the former is the same as what is horrid about the latter.    My hope was that Rock Creek would put to rest any notion that a course like Black Rock would continue to be considered architecturally worthy or laudable, but apparently I was mistaken.

Believe or not Jim, I mean no offense to you are Andy or anyone else when I say this.  I'd be glad to discuss the basis for my opinions, but I am not sure a thread about Rock Creek is the place for it.

[Jim Franklin]

Jim F.:  I apologize for misunderstanding your list ... I thought you were equating Rock Creek to the others you listed.  I had no idea that was the order you ranked them and you put Rock Creek above them all.  That is a very strong statement, stronger even than its designer would make.

As for Black Rock, I only toured the course, did not play it.  Actually, though, you couldn't pay me to go back there and play it.  It's just the dead opposite of the sort of architecture I like.  That is not a statement about Shot Values or Memorability or Conditioning, just a matter of Taste.

I understand that different people like different things. I enjoy your style of design a lot, but can enjoy others as well. I think Rock Creek is a ton of fun and had me thinking on every shot which a lot of courses don't. That fact alone made it even more fun. Watching shots bounce and sometimes end up great and others not so good was pure joy. So yes, I think it is the best modern course I have played barely beating Sand Hills and Pacific Dunes. Although I am getting back to play Pac Dunes next summer. I loved the one time I was there so playing it three times in a trip may elevate it as well.

Even though Black Rock is totally manufactured, it was also a lot of fun to play. Everyone just needs to throw away there preconceived notions and let it rip. And then go play their next shot. It is a fun course as well.

[Tom Huckaby]

Huck:

Of course, as designer, it is not so easy for me to play favorites.

As it happens, I am trying to choose where to go for a relaxing weekend at the end of this month.  I'm torn between going to Rock Creek or Ballyneal.  [Though I am NOT flying private in either case.]  I suppose it's not a fair comparison though, since I've been to Bandon plenty of times over the past 2-3 years.

Totally understood.  Also understand also that no tales of greatness cause eye-brow raising.. it's just vehement declarations of #1 destination, no question, that cause the forehead wrinkles.

Of course I do not know one way or the other.  I just can't simply blindly accept my friend's rantings, unlike Franklin, who laps them up.

In any case that is one FINE choice to have.  Wanna come watch my kids instead?

 


David M. - that is all very cool, totally understandable, no eyebrow raising.  And lord knows you follow AWAY from shivas as any sane man would.  So that is all very cool.  If only shivas could leave it at that.

 

[Richard Choi]

I nominate Rock Creek for the Wide World of Golf Club Atlas Match Event #2!!!

Perhaps we can arrange a match between Huck and Shiv? I'd buy a ticket for that one!

[Sean Leary]

I nominate Rock Creek for the Wide World of Golf Club Atlas Match Event #2!!!

Perhaps we can arrange a match between Huck and Shiv? I'd buy a ticket for that one!

IN

[Jim Franklin]

David -

I understand some people like the minimalist approach and that is fine (me too). The thing that gets me is everyone raves about Mike Strantz and his earthmoving, but when somone else does it, it stinks. Since this thread is about Rock Creek's stature with other modern courses, then I believe this conversation is fine. Again, Rock Creek, Sand Hills, Ballyneal and other minimalist courses are great, but I can appreciate other designs as well. Different strokes for different folks.

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