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Scott Henderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Will there ever be another Strantz?
« Reply #25 on: August 16, 2009, 12:10:21 AM »
No, nor would I want there to be.  I like variety, and have begun to appreciate the finer points of GCA thanks to my son Kyle (yes that Kyle - aka Hansandfranz and (according to his dentist) Kyle von Clever Muscle).  When Kyle was living in NC we were able to play Tobacco Road and Tot Hill Farm, and thanks to Bob Huntley we played MPCC Shore, and I really learned a lot about Strantz designs.  I think they are great but if every new course were a Strantz-like course it would diminish the uniqueness and this topic would not even be considered.  I think it important that the philosophy be emulated, but the design specifics not so much.  I think that Tom Doak and others are doing things in this way (I love Pacific Dunes) - although I in no way think that Doak is trying to design anything like a "Strantz course."

As regards financing, I think that once an architect has established himself (herself?) they would hopefully find it easier to get financing for projects that are more "unconventional" than those who are less well established.

Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Will there ever be another Strantz?
« Reply #26 on: August 16, 2009, 05:02:59 AM »
I think Jim Engh thinks outside the box with big, bold green complexes. The Club at Black Rock was a treat to play on what looked like a difficult site.
Jim,

Could you explain what you mean by that?  It just doesn't seem "out of the box" to make "big, bold green complexes", it just seems expensive. This is an honest question...
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Jay Flemma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Will there ever be another Strantz?
« Reply #27 on: August 16, 2009, 11:55:01 AM »
My dear Jay,

 I am not carping but I just find that particular piece no where near your usual standard of excellence. You must have been very tired.

Take it easy, have a drink and relax.

Bob

It's tough...again 4 hours sleep last night, and probly 4 hours again tonight.  I wish I could take it easy, but I'm doing the work of two.  I did have a great dinner with the writers last night, and one drink.  Wish I had one right now:)

Saw Interlachen and Minikahda!  amazing!
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Derek_Duncan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Will there ever be another Strantz?
« Reply #28 on: August 16, 2009, 12:04:04 PM »


Has Tot Hill been truncated since it opened?  It looked like the waterfall double green joining 10 and 12 has been severed, the uppermost tier on 13 has been cut in half, and a few back tees are no longer being cut/cared for.  Tot Hill could use a tree removal program like no other course I've been on recently.  How they keep any grass on some of those tee decks is beyond me.

I would say that Holes 1, 7 and 9 are better par fours than 17.  The meadow holes (16-18) didn't inspire me much, even though I pitched in for eagle on 18.  I'd come to expect so much visually from Mike Strantz that this trilogy needed to give me more than grass to remain in my memory banks.

My next trip will be Williamsburg, as I want to play Royal New Kent and Stonehouse to further fill out my understanding of his work.

Ronald,

I was told that a few years ago a flood came through that low area at Tot Hill and more or less swept away the 11th and 12th greens. I don't know if the 10th and 12th greens were ever connected--I don't think they were--but what you saw was not entirely original. For the record, that back pin on 10, on the very lowest tier, is never used. Same with the far upper tier on the par three 13th--never used. Strantz also built a way back tee for 14 up on the hill to the right of the 13th tee that's no longer used for logistical reasons.

Funny you should mention you like the 9th hole. The pro there told me it's far and away the most hated hole on the course. He said he hates it too.

Tot Hill just doesn't have anywhere near the maintenance budget that Tobacco Road does. That's one of the real treats about TR.


wwhitehead,

Of what I've seen, I'm a huge fan of Strantz. I certainly understand the criticism but I love that his courses exist.
www.feedtheball.com -- a podcast about golf architecture and design
@feedtheball

Jay Flemma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Will there ever be another Strantz?
« Reply #29 on: August 16, 2009, 01:40:20 PM »
Derek, what is a simpatico?

One of my favorite Strantz holes is the cauldron hole that I found at True Blue and Tobacco Road.  Perhaps a neo-Short, it is a Strantz original.  A semi-circle of tees and a semi-circle of green combine to form a near sphere.  Simply cool.


I just got off the phone with Forrest Fezler, and read Forrest this post.  Forrest replied that, "I have no idea what he's talking about. Dude must be on something.  There is no such thing as a 'cauldron hole,' and Mike didn't mean to do anything in the shape of a sphere, or with trees."  That's an exact quote from Fuzzy.

At 17 at The Road, all Mike tried to do was create a narrow, but wide green with a FAIRWAY that curves.  "It's not a short.  Mike liked the short at national and put elements of it at 14 at TB, but the thing to remember is mike never built a straight par-3.  everything has a curve.  Jim Engh saw 4-5 of our courses, and said that," fuzzy said.  "Everything has a swing, even the par-3s."

Mike did the Short at 14 at TB, but never did the "pocket" (his words) or horseshoe/thumbprint in the green on a par-3.  He did the pocket (his word, we'd say thumbprint), at number 7 at The Road.  Fuzzy said Mike loved shinny and national, but most importantly, copied the idea of curving fwys, so that diagonal angles were created so you could cut off as much of the curve as you dared, but also used the doctrine of deception.  He also loved width.

The first place to start to learn about Mike is to read Ran's review.  Then read my interview.  While we're at it - and this is not a swipe at Doak or anyone else - but I need to re-iterate because this false rumor just keeps resurfacing:  Mike never set foot on World Woods, ever, and had no input, not even from afar.

I think we need to be careful before we start giving things names without understanding what the man was trying to do.  There is no such thing as a "neo-short" and Mike certainly did NOT have the short in mind at 17 at The Road or any par-3 at The Road for that matter.  I think it's best to accurately learn what his concepts were, before trying to give something a name without knowing what you're doing. As Hemingway said, learn to make before you learn to break.

One last thing.  The same person said, "Hopefully fully esteemed, the traversing of his waste areas and the transgressing of mounds, mountains, vales and hollows (not to mention quarries and cliffs) is so much damned fun!"

From distionary.com

trans⋅gress
  /trænsˈgrɛs, trænz-/[trans-gres, tranz-]
–verb (used without object)
1.    to violate a law, command, moral code, etc.; offend; sin.
–verb (used with object)
2.    to pass over or go beyond (a limit, boundary, etc.): to transgress bounds of prudence.
3.    to go beyond the limits imposed by (a law, command, etc.); violate; infringe: to transgress the will of God.

« Last Edit: August 16, 2009, 01:59:37 PM by Jay Flemma »
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Will there ever be another Strantz?
« Reply #30 on: August 16, 2009, 05:41:59 PM »
Not sure what the point of that was, Jay.  In the first place, I wrote "tees," not "trees."  In the second, I should have indicated that I use the term "cauldron hole" to describe the two unique par threes of Strantz that I have played.  Those would be 14 at True Blue (http://www.fishclub.com/trueblue/hole14.cfm) and 6 at Tobacco Road (http://www.tobaccoroadgolf.com/hole6.html).  The two holes share the circular similarity of tees and green and offer options that most holes don't, principally because of the wide green and criss-cross potential.  Neo-short, again, should not be taken literally as an official type of hole.

A friend of mine laughs at us on GCA when we get all anal and kvetch about what is or is not "officially" a specific type of hole.  I think that we can give holes names without wondering or knowing what the man was trying to accomplish.  Until someone assigns a better designation, these holes will be cauldron holes to me.  Got to go to dinner...be back later with more.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Will there ever be another Strantz?
« Reply #31 on: August 16, 2009, 08:10:55 PM »
Good dinner, belly full.  Back to the postings.

transgressing the mounds...2.    to pass over or go beyond

Yes, it's a liberal (non-political) interpretation of the word.  That's language.  Language is fluid, language is flexible.

If anyone wishes to cite my use of the terms neo-short (whose usage I have yet to see) and/or cauldron hole (same), feel free.  If you feel more comfortable inventing/coining your own phraseology, by all means, do so.  Strantz' footprints are so unique that applicable terminology of an unfamiliar nature might be created by us to reference them.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!