Caddies and architecture

[Grant Saunders]

What influence do caddies have on the enjoyment and understanding of your round?

I have never personally utilised the services of a caddie and Im curious as to what people who do or have used them think.

Does using a caddie on a course you are seeing for the first time take away from some of the problem solving nature of the game of golf. Does having a person, who is intimately familiar with the course, telling you what lines to pick and clubs to choose reduce the level of skill in thinking your way around the course? Course management is an integral part of the game and is often a clear line between a good player and a great player. By removing the need for the player to assess the risks ahead of them it allows them to focus solely on execution and result.

Does having someone point out to you what to look for in the golf hole take away the “lightbulb” moment of realisation when the hole becomes apparent to you and you can then formulate a plan of attack. Is this moment not what thought provoking architecture is all about?

I appreciate that in the circumstance of a blind shot, then having someone to advise a line for you is a big benefit. I also understand that caddies can provide great company and offer many interesting stories, anecdotes and history of the course.

I know that a number of people on here either are or have worked as caddies so I look forward to their input also.

As I stated, I have never used a caddie so I am in no position to comment on the pros and cons and it is just something I was pondering the other day.    

[Will Peterson]

Grant,

I would take a caddie whenever possible.  There is no better way to play a round of golf than with a caddie.  I will say that it is possible to get a bad caddie or have a sub-par experience (I have found most of these when dealing with caddie companies that the course contracts), but the good out weigh the bad.  My rounds at St. Andrews (my dad's caddie was exceptional and came with us on more rounds over the next few days), Carnoustie (my dad's caddie was amazing and made up for mine not talking), Deal (played in a tournament, and didn't miss a putt thanks to his reads and avoided nearly all the trouble with his lines and suggestions), Pinehurst (50 year veteran with enough stories and local knowledge for 100's of rounds) , and many more were made better by incredible caddies.  Even rounds where the caddie was more inexperienced and followed the old saying "show up, shut up, and keep up" the round was more enjoyable than taking a cart or carrying yourself.  I had a terrible caddie at Sawgrass and Erin Hills, and I do not think it took anything away from my enjoyment of the golf course.

I have a high school golfer caddie for me during summer tournaments.  He offers no local knowledge or any real skill at reading greens, but it is great to have him along.  There is nothing better in golf than a long walk down a fairway without having to carry your sticks.

[Bill Brightly]

It should be a huge difference in my enjoyment of the round. The better the caddy, the better the experience.

You pose the question that this is my first round om the course, (so I probably wont be playing it too often) so he is going to tell me what the architecture has to offer, what to avoid, etc. Then I can attempt to hit the proper shot and see what happens.

This might take away the element of surprise, which some people may want, but if I'm playing a truly great course for my first and maybe last, I'll give up the "surprise factor" in favor of testing my game the way the architect intended.

[Jaeger Kovich]

I am a caddy. Yes I can influence your understanding of the course and your enjoyment of your round.

Do I take away from the problem solving nature of the game? No, I wouldn't say so. I will only read putts for people when they ask for it. I will have a yardage number to the middle and to the pin for you on every approach shot, and I will tell you if it is uphill or downhill, but will not give you my input on what club to hit or what # to play unless you want me to. If I see someone having a difficult time deciding which route to take, I will simply give them what I see are OUR 2 or 3 best options (ex. punch it out into the fairway, a lay-up on the right side of the fairway gives you the best angle in). Unless I know the player intimately, or can certainly benefit the group/player by preventing the absolute wrong decision (2-iron out of deep rough over trees), every decision is up to the player

Does someone pointing out what to look for take away anything? That is debatable. Would you like it if I let you play your normal draw off the tee down the left and get completely blocked out from a shot to a short par 4 when all I have to do is say "Right side of the fairway here please!" (Of course it helps when you give the guy the right read for birdie on the hole before and he trusts you) Obviously if someone asks not to be helped like that, which does happen, I would never say it.

What happens when we get to #13 and I explain on the tee of the long par-3 that "We are now at the Reef hole, a long par-3 which Tillinghast viewed as an ideal one shot hole, and used at a few of his courses as what some might call a template hole. He believed this was an ideal hole because it offers 3 different lines of play which is very unusual for par-3. Normally there is one line of play, straight at the green, here you also can play to the fairway on the right which takes the bunker out of play, but leaves a slightly harder pitch onto the green, or you can also challenge the bunker on the left, which is actually 50 yards short of the green, and even if it doesn't quite reach the green, you will have the best angle to the pin." So, not only have I given you architectural insight into Tillinghast design style, but explained the lines of play on the hole, and added the comfort that the bunker you are about to carry really isn't as big a carry as it appears... No I don't think I took anything away, in fact I think I added quite a bit... People who play the course every day will ask for other information like that the rest of the round, others will wonder how I learned that, and those who don't care, well they dont care!


I will always take a caddy when they are available. Having someone to find my ball, let me concentrate solely on the shot ahead of me, instead of cart paths, yardage, or carrying my own clubs (which does expend energy). In the end the player is always in control, they are the one who hits the shot, they can ask for as much information as they want and can always play the entire round without help if they want as well other than using the caddy as a "bag schleper". I understand that sometimes people feel as though they should "pity" the caddy for having to carry golf bags for a living, I just wish that weren't the case, at the end of the day it is a job, we get paid to do our job, and some of us don't "have to caddy", but we do it because we love it.

[Mike Sweeney]

Like many things on this board, it depends.

During my infamous summer at Newport CC ( http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,37780.msg779045/#msg779045 ) there were basically three groups that I caddied for:

1. About 66% of the membership were the old WASP from the Ocean Drive mansions  that had been playing the course for years, so clearly I was not going to add much to their knowledge.

2. About 33% of the membership were the town businessmen who were let in when the tax codes changed in the 70's. Good guys but again how much could I add.

3. A very early Senior PGA tournament and I had Jerry Barber who won the PGA one year. Yea, he listened to what I said.  

Thus, it was a summer of having golfers ignore what I say. Probably a good introduction to the GCA.com discussion group!

[Adam Russell]

Grant -
I caddy at Reynolds Plantation, and have for about four years now. For enjoyment factor, I've figured I'm worth about three shots a round on average whether people listen to me or not. Most people like shooting lower, and they tend to like that part of taking me. 

If you've never had a caddie, the biggest thing will be personal space. I try to keep some distance between myself and my player for the first few holes (and then gradually get closer) if they've never had a caddie because all players are nervous in the beginning. They're scared the caddy thinks they're awful. It takes about three holes for people to realize I don't care if they shank it in the woods, and I try to take that edge off early because people like yourself are looking for those couple moments that make a memorable round (pure drive where I told you to hit, 30-ft. putt right on my read).

As far as the excitement factor, it all depends on the situation. Are you a single? Foursome? Got a hangover? A plane to catch? Because I change the way I caddy for each situation. I'll give you enough rope to hang yourself with most times, but I'm always weighing the idea of stepping in and looking for the right point when I will make a difference. If you're on the 16th needing a 20-ft. birdie putt to give your buddies a run in a match, I'm stepping in every time. But if it's late afternoon and your a single, we've got more time to explore and I'll tell you more about the course. My job if finding out what it takes for you to have a blast in the quickest amount of time. If that's figuring out the architecture, I'll let you direct me with the questions, and that's how it usually works out.

[Ronald Montesano]

I and two chums played Whistling Straits four years back.  I and one friend were caddied by Geo Crouch, a chap who added immensely to the experience.  He pointed out bits from the PGA championship, indicated the best avenues to travel and demonstrated the demeanor and decorum that a member of the service industry should display.  The knowledgeable, efficient caddy will, intentionally or casually, add to the experience by guiding the player as the architect intended.

[Adam Clayman]

Its my belief that a Caddy can add exponentially to the experience. One intresting theory I came up with was how much info available corollates to the quality of a  strategic design. So if all a Caddy need say is left center the course may not have too many secrets or options to discuss.   

[Jim Tang]

I've looped at various private clubs on and off for 7 years now.

WHAT I WILL DO FOR YOU:

1. On the tee you'll get yardages to hazards suchs a bunkers, as well as yardages to carry said hazards.  You'll also get the safer line of play, and the more aggressive line of play.

2.  In the fairway you'll get the yardage to the middle and to the pin, information on wind conditions plus whether the shot is playing uphill or downhill.  I'll fix the divots and find the lost balls.

3.  At the green I'll clean the ball, repair the ball mark and rake the trap.  I will only read your putt if you ask me to.

4.  I'll provide any local knowledge you may need, such as the existance of a hidden bunker, a particular spot on the green that tends to feed approach shots to the stick, etc.

5.  Own up to a bad read.  If you ask me to read your putt, and I give you a crap read (very rare) on the next tee I will tell you I screwed up, my bad.  I think the worst thing a caddie can do is give a bad piece of advice, and then act like nothing happened.  Own up to it and the player will respect that most of the time.

6.  You will be free to concerntrate on your game, worry only about your next shot, and walk with your foursome down the fairway, discuss, talk,  laugh, tell dirty jokes, keep straight how many points you're up/down and close the deal.

As mentioned by other caddies here, I tend to give my guy a bit of space early on in the loop.  Some guys are higher maintenance, others are not.  As a caddie you are there to make the game more enjoyable for the player.  If he wants me to shut up, I'll shut up and just hand him the club.  If he wants as much info as I can give him, I'll pump him full of it.

WHAT I WILL NOT DO FOR YOU

1.  Fetch the club you just chucked (nice form)

2.  Offer swing tips

3.  Lie or guess about whether a ball is lost or gone or okay or whatever.  If it is gone, I'll let you know it is never coming back, so long, good night.  If it might be in, might be out or lost or in the bunker, I'll just say it's 50/50 and we'll go see.

I've taken caddies myself and really love the entire experience. 

[Grant Saunders]

Thanks for the replies guys.

Good to get replies from the caddies themselves. Its always nice to here people express passion about what they do.

Interesting to read both Bill and Ronald both refer to the caddie helping golfers play the course "the way the architect intended". This is kind of what I was asking regarding the player not having to identify but only execute the shot. Maybe its just me, but a big part of the enjoyment of the game for me is the thought process and choosing the option from what is there to be seen. Mind you, I am also the sort of person to refer to an instruction manual as the last resort. Like it has been said, the caddie will only provide you the information you ask for so I suppose you can choose not to have this advice offered.

How long does it take for a caddie to read the players game and feel confident to adjust their recommendations accordingly?

[Joe Bentham]

I make my living as a caddie.  And if I was to take a caddie I wouldn't want a lot of info.  First of all I'm a feel player and rarely check yardages in the first place.  I also enjoy deciding what shot to play and where and having someone tell me what to do wouldn't be that much fun.
I guess that is why I don't do that much as a caddie.  I try to involve the player as much as possible.  I'll tell them how far it is, how far I think its playing but I won't tell him what club to hit.  And I think that works out best for both parties involved.
As for how long it takes a player to buy in, well some are better then others.  But to varying degrees none of them ever do.  There are as many instances in a round when post shot a player will say 'oh, well now I see' as there is moments where they hit right where you tell them to.  And that is fine.  I don't want to caddie for mindless golfers who expect ME to know where and how THEY should play every shot during THEIR round.
Bottom line is some golfers are better suited for caddies then others.  But as a player don't be afraid to tell your caddie what you want before you get started.  Your caddie will appreciate it.

[Adam Clayman]

How long does it take for a caddie to read the players game and feel confident to adjust their recommendations accordingly?

Rarely past the second swing.

[Patrick Hodgdon]

As another caddy here on GCA allow me to jump in to this thread as well.

What influence do caddies have on the enjoyment and understanding of your round?

I would say that caddies, if you allow them to, can have the most influence on the enjoyment of your round. A good caddy can shave 5-10 strokes off your round and also keep your spirits up when you are playing poorly. As far as understanding goes, and I assume you are talking about architecture here, the caddy can also help immensely. Take Interlachen, where I've been caddying for 12 years for instance. Say it's your first time out and all you know is it's a Ross course. What you don't know is that the 1st and 3rd greens are actually not Ross greens and were redesigned by Trent Jones back in the '60's but I can tell you that. I would think that this would add to your understanding and is not something you could probably assess just by studying the hole.

Does using a caddie on a course you are seeing for the first time take away from some of the problem solving nature of the game of golf. Does having a person, who is intimately familiar with the course, telling you what lines to pick and clubs to choose reduce the level of skill in thinking your way around the course? Course management is an integral part of the game and is often a clear line between a good player and a great player. By removing the need for the player to assess the risks ahead of them it allows them to focus solely on execution and result.

Certainly having a caddy with good course knowledge will take away some of the problem solving, assuming you both let them help and use that help. The answer to this question lies in what you want to accomplish with your round. Are you trying to see how well you alone can play the course? Are you trying to go as low as possible? Are you trying to learn the course for future play? As the other caddy responders mentioned above it is our job to find out what you are trying to accomplish and either help or stay out of the way as necessary to help you accomplish that goal.

Does having someone point out to you what to look for in the golf hole take away the “lightbulb” moment of realisation when the hole becomes apparent to you and you can then formulate a plan of attack. Is this moment not what thought provoking architecture is all about?

Again this goes to what you are trying to accomplish. In the Interlachen example I can give you the gorgeous downhill par-3 13th with Mirror Lake in the background. This is the only hole on the course where the green runs away from you, as it has a slope from front-right to back-left, however you can't see this from the tee. So do you enjoy the said "aha" lightbulb moment after you hit to the middle of the green only for it to run and drops off the back into nasty rough. Or would you prefer to know this on the tee from your caddy? Again it goes to personal preference and the goals of the round.

I appreciate that in the circumstance of a blind shot, then having someone to advise a line for you is a big benefit.

But what about the "lightbulb" moment?

I also understand that caddies can provide great company and offer many interesting stories, anecdotes and history of the course.

Yes, yes, and yes. This is where the added enjoyment com in.

As I stated, I have never used a caddie so I am in no position to comment on the pros and cons and it is just something I was pondering the other day.

Come on out to Interlachen, I'd love to be your first!

Interesting to read both Bill and Ronald both refer to the caddie helping golfers play the course "the way the architect intended". This is kind of what I was asking regarding the player not having to identify but only execute the shot. Maybe its just me, but a big part of the enjoyment of the game for me is the thought process and choosing the option from what is there to be seen. Mind you, I am also the sort of person to refer to an instruction manual as the last resort. Like it has been said, the caddie will only provide you the information you ask for so I suppose you can choose not to have this advice offered.

I think your personality is just one of wanting to do everything yourself, which is totally fine. I've caddied for a lot of guys like you and know the personality very well. Most of these guys are better golfers and very methodical. The funny part is that most caddies hate the type, as they take away from the job because they don't rely on them, but I have found that it takes about 5-10 rounds with these guys and they slowly warm up to you and then more and more bring you in on club decisions and green reads and turn into very enjoyable guys to caddy for.[/quote]

How long does it take for a caddie to read the players game and feel confident to adjust their recommendations accordingly?

Usually it takes me about three holes to know exactly what club a player should be hitting. That being said one of the most frustrating things in caddying is clubbing someone right 10+ times only for them to not trust you on one and then hit a bad shot and say, "you were right." Drives a caddy nuts!

[Damon Groves]

It all depends on the Caddie. Some places have caddies that are just someone that carries the bag. My caddie at Ballyneal was basically that and did not add anything but sure made it nice to not carry my bag. However, at Bandon Dunes I have been using the same caddie for each of my five visits and he is a true professional and very much adds to the experience as his knowlegde of the course allows me to really play the courses the way they were designed. You might argue that he knows my game very well given how many rounds we have played together which is true but a good caddie should have his player figured out within three holes. It would be hard for me to imagine Bandon Dunes without him. 

[Sean_A]

I have yet to enjoy the services of what I call a really good caddie, but to be honest, I am not sure what that is. I spose this may change for me depending on my mood - a bit tough on the caddie eh.  However, somebody mentioned earlier that some golfers don't have a personality for caddies.  This could be true about me.  I don't like a lot of info about shots because I want to figure it out myself, but if I want info, I will ask.

My last outing with a caddie sort of illustrates why I have a distrust of them.  On Kiawah's 16th I hit a drive to the far left side of the fairway and wasn't carrying a 3 wood.  I pulled the hybrid out with the intention of hooking a shot to the follow the shape of the green around a big waste area.  The caddie says I can't reach so I fire away with people on the green.  Plop!  Predictably pin high (and the pin was back) left in the waste area.  Needless to say I was a bit pissed off the caddie told me to hit when I clearly created a dangerous situation.  Of course, I was more angry at myself for trusting the caddie.  Regardless of the danger situation, I didn't like the frame of mind he put me before hitting my shot.  He placed a negative image in my mind and no caddie should do that.  If he sees I have pulled a club he needs to go with the flow and give me a positive thought.   

Probably the safe bet for me, is just a bag carrier.  On the other hand, I do appreciate getting tid bits of history.  I guess I am a complicated guy. 

Ciao

[Mike Sweeney]

I guess I am a complicated guy. 

Sean,

Taking the position of Head Caddy here at GCA, we understand and you are probably not the first pick for a loop either!

[Sean_A]

I guess I am a complicated guy. 

Sean,

Taking the position of Head Caddy here at GCA, we understand and you are probably not the first pick for a loop either!

Mike

It isn't all bad.  If a caddie can put up with me he does get the benefit of carrying a VERY light bag - easy money really.  I recall a caddie a Pinehurst using the luggage handle because he said the bag wasn't worth the effort of throwing over the shoulder - tee hee.

Ciao

[Mike Sweeney]

I recall a caddie a Pinehurst using the luggage handle because he said the bag wasn't worth the effort of throwing over the shoulder - tee hee.

Sean,

My regular bag is the Ping Moon Bag too. However, when a caddy has two bags they do not like it because there is no stand, so I typically carry a stand bag for caddy days.

Trust me, you are no picnic from a caddy's perspective. 

[archie_struthers]

\
Wtihout caddies people seldom walk ,  enabling the player to experience the pitch of the ground and see the golf course much more ifrom a different perspective than when riding in a cart. 

Certainly walking enhances the experience of architiecture for the player ....and playing with a good caddy is the best way to go! 

[Adam Russell]

Its my belief that a Caddy can add exponentially to the experience. One intresting theory I came up with was how much info available corollates to the quality of a  strategic design. So if all a Caddy need say is left center the course may not have too many secrets or options to discuss.   

Adam C.-
You've hit the nail on the head here. So many times I'd like to give some tidbit, but there's nothing there. Out of our five courses, there's a Rees, a Faz, late-80's Nicklaus, a Cupp, and Engh. So I'm sort of in architectural hell. But I also think pointing out too much could fall on deaf ears at a private club. I know I would get annoyed with a caddie telling me all the architectural details of all holes, especially if I played a course on a regular basis. There's always a balance with each person.

Sean A. -
What I want to know is if the caddie had backed you off the shot, waited for the green to clear, and you skulled your shot down the waste area, would you still get heated? Just from your writing you seem like the classic damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't guy. But you have an ultra-light, and that counts big in my book. 

[Sean_A]

Its my belief that a Caddy can add exponentially to the experience. One intresting theory I came up with was how much info available corollates to the quality of a  strategic design. So if all a Caddy need say is left center the course may not have too many secrets or options to discuss.   

Sean A. -
What I want to know is if the caddie had backed you off the shot, waited for the green to clear, and you skulled your shot down the waste area, would you still get heated? Just from your writing you seem like the classic damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't guy. But you have an ultra-light, and that counts big in my book. 

Adam

Absolutely not.  If anybody backs me off for safety reasons I listen.  I don't have an issue with getting -settled.  Besides, it wasn't matter if he wasn't sure.  He said you can't reach and walked away to tend to another player (we had two caddies for three players).  I wasn't sure and should have trusted my instincts.  I am not blaming the caddie, I hit the shot.  My story was to illustrate how caddies aren't the know and and be all even after 15 holes.  On that particular day the caddie also gave me a terrible read on the 2nd as well so I was really in the wrong for trusting this guy.  All that said, both caddies were nice guys.

Ciao

[Brent Hutto]

I must say that after maybe 10-12 rounds total played with caddies over the last few years I'm less and less inclined to do so in the future.

It's not like I've had any really bad experiences and in fact on two occasions quite the opposite. On my day at Cypress Point the caddies were a definite and clear positive influence on the round. Plus they enabled me to play the same ball for the entire 18 holes including a couple occasions where I would have had no idea where to look for it without them. And my first time around the Ocean Course at Kiawah, played in near-freezing temps and steady blowing rain, would have been a miserable slog indeed without someone to hold an umbrella and keep my grips dry.

But on the whole I find having another personality inserted into the experience is a negative. Playing in a threesome with two caddies is like playing in a five-ball. Just tons of chatter, both "information" and otherwise, creating something as akin to a 19-th hole bull session as a round of golf. And having been in the group Sean describes at Kiawah definitely crystallized the idea I'd been forming for a year or two that I can get more enjoyment from a typical round reading my own putts than having it spoon fed (for better or worse) by the caddies. Once again, the guys at Cypress Point were perhaps an exception proving this Rule as their uncanny putt-reading abilities were a marvel to behold.

[Adam Russell]

Sean-
Well you don't sound like a bad guy after all! What is it about people standing on a green, or fairway for that matter, that makes golfers hit career shots. I've seen the highest-handicapper pull out a tour level drive or pure an iron from 220 if there's someone in the vicinity - it happens more often than not...

That is strange about two caddies for three people - did one guy just not want one?

I think the biggest problem is the training for the system we're under. It covers some many resorts and its standardized - Kiawah, Augusta National, Pebble, Reynolds, and about fifty other places public and private. They teach that there's one way to stand, one way to give information (all the time), and one style of caddying. Which is silly, although from a business standpoint they can offer the same average caddy to every place. So many time I see guys too scared to jump out of line to help a customer have a good time, and they talk so much its annoying. Plus it gives the good ones who try to hone a specific style a bad rap. I can't tell you how many guys give me a cold shoulder at first, then by the end of the day apologize and tell me a story about how the last one they had was awful. One bad caddy can ruin the thought of taking one for a long time.

[Brent Hutto]

That is strange about two caddies for three people - did one guy just not want one?

The caddies at Kiawah carry two bags apiece and we had a threesome. Hence two for three.

[Adam Russell]

Brett-

Brain fart. Got you now. They outlawed us at Reynolds from doing that, even though I loved it money-wise, because the Oconee Course (Rees) is such a brutal walk that 90% of the shack couldn't do it.