The Definition of Zero

[Mike Nuzzo]

Silvertip in Canada is a course so contrived and unnatural that it DID poison my mind, and one I cannot recommend under any circumstances. This course wasted ridiculous sums of money in its construction, and shouldn’t have been built in the first place.
http://www.silvertipresort.com/

[Tim Nugent]

Silvertip in Canada is a course so contrived and unnatural that it DID poison my mind, and one I cannot recommend under any circumstances. This course wasted ridiculous sums of money in its construction, and shouldn’t have been built in the first place.
http://www.silvertipresort.com/

Most Ski Resort courses are only there because the snow has a nasty habit of melting.

[Mark Pearce]

The Bracken at Woodhall Spa was an entirely joyless experience on a totally flat, muddy site.  I knew even less than I know now about GCA but spotted it as a pile of excrement.  I suspect if I returned I would think it was a 0.

On an entirely seperate tack, does Woddhall Spa have the greatest differential in quality between two courses at the same club?

[Mac Plumart]

RON...WHAT ARE YOU YELLING ABOUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!   

I think we all know it is Tom Doak's list.  It is his opinion.  I try to learn from his opinions, simply to see where he is coming from.  Not to brain-wash myself into thinking just like him.  I also like to watch and listen to other people's reaction to a course. 

For instance, the GOlf Club of GA (creekside) course.  Tom says it is a zero.  When I play out there with people, they always ask...what course are we playing, Lakeside or Creekside?  When they hear Creekside, they cringe and say "oh man, that course is hard."  Putting two and two together, I am thinking an architect doesn't want golfers to cringe when they hear they are playing their courses.  So, perhaps Tom has a point on that one.

However, to your point Ron, I've played many a clunker that has one or two or three neat things about it...which makes it worthwhile to play and learn from.

NOW STOP YELLING!!!!!!!!!!!! 

[Wyatt Halliday]

The Definition of Zero

0. A course so contrived and unnatural that it may poison your mind, one I cannot recommend under any circumstances. Reserved for courses that wasted ridiculous sums of money in their construction, and probably shouldn’t have been built in the first place

So I recently played in a golf tournament that was played at Heritage Eagle Bend Golf and Country Club in Aurora, Colorado.  I had a practice round and two tournament rounds.  I must say this was the worst three days of golf I have ever experienced in my life.  The whole time I was playing the golf course, the zero rating was just going through my mind over and over.  I just kept saying to myself, "this has to be the most contrived golf course I have ever played."  It was built on a site that SHOULD HAVE NEVER been used for a golf course, but yet they forced it on there.  It is hemmed in by houses on every hole, but that doesn't bother me that much if they are good golf holes, but trust me this was crap.  Probably wasted a ton of money to build this course, and I'm sure that it will never ever make their money back.  Oh and one more thing it was designed by IMO the worst golf designer of this period ARTHUR HILLS.

So my question is what Zero's have you played.  This was honestly the first zero I have ever played.  There are bad golf courses out there but nothing ever came close to this.

Simply put, Heritage at Eagle Bend sucks. It doesn't even deserve a Doak 0. It bears the distinction of being my least favorite golf course of all time.

[Matthew Petersen]

I played Heritage Eagle Bend once when I lived in Aurora and remember thinking it was utterly ridiculous. And that was before I got to the 18th hole, which might be the worst golf hole I've ever played.

Matthew Rose mentioned Legacy Ridge, which is a course I only played a few times, but I actually liked quite well. Perhaps it has not aged well, but I remember that it was quite popular when it first opened and I thought it was a good test. Then again, it was also the first place I ever broke 80, so maybe I'm biased by that memory.

As for other Doak goose eggs, I have been told that he gave ASU Karsten a 0, which I personally disagree with. But, at the same time, I can understand where he was coming from and respect that is his opinion.

[Bart Bradley]

"The Definition of Zero

"0. A course so contrived and unnatural that it may poison your mind, one I cannot recommend under any circumstances. Reserved for courses that wasted ridiculous sums of money in their construction, and probably shouldn’t have been built in the first place."

Mountain Air Country Club's course in Burnsville, NC is as close to a zero as I've ever played.  From the club's website: "Architect Scott Pool carved the course into the very contours of Slickrock Mountain, weaving ribbons of green through dense hardwood forests and sheer outcroppings of granite. Hundreds of boulders weighing thousands of tons were meticulously stacked to create dramatic tees unlike anything you've ever seen. Streams, waterfalls, and ponds punctuate the magnificent course with glimmers of crystal blue and sparkling silver."

Anyone else have thoughts about that one?

Carl:

Been there....Couldn't argue with zero.  They had several tee boxes built into the side of cliffs that were so small they couldn't maintain grass and had to put in artificial turf...

Zero it is.

Bart

[Tim Pitner]

I live on another Denver Arthur Hills course (Legacy Ridge). Some of the tee-shots are stupifyingly narrow. #11 is a par-five that requires a 250 yard carry over an environmentally sensitive area which must be threaded between a 20 yard gap in two huge trees.

Another par-five, #6, has a forced lay-up.

The 18th is another par-five with a fairway that is about 10 feet wide for 500 yards.

I don't hate the course (I seem to shoot low scores on it), but what I find interesting about it is that there's almost never anyone else on it. It gets no play. I suspect the duffer has become fed up with it and won't come back.

Matthew, I used to play Legacy Ridge fairly often, but haven't played it in several years.  Among other issues, the homes now completely engulf the course.   There are some very flawed holes there (#6 especially) but I recall some fun ones as well.  There has been a fair amount of Arthur Hills-bashing here and, in my view, for good reason.  The forced lay-up par 5 seems to be a particular specialty of his.  I haven't played Heritage Eagle Bend but my curiosity is now somewhat piqued (although I don't play enough to waste rounds). 

[Sean Leary]

SilverTip is beyond awful. Might have the single worse hole I have ever played. Blind tee shot off a cliff over trees. Ugh..

[John Mayhugh]

Also, someone once told me...you've got to play clunkers to be able to appreciate the gems.  

True, but how many times do you need to play clunkers?  My time is limited enough that I don't see the point of playing golf courses that aren't any good.  I'll play a crappy course with buddies, but that's only after at least trying to convince them to play somewhere better. 

[Sean_A]

Okay, so some of you are not so passionate about golf courses that there is such a thing as a "0" or a "10" for you.  That's an individual decision and it is fine for you to make it.  But I will defend my right to disagree with you.

One of the biggest problems in the golf business [in fact, in business nowadays, with no better examples than what's coming out of Wall Street and Washington the past two years] is that nobody is willing to call their peers out for ANY behavior, no matter how extreme.  You want to invent a CDS full of absolute worthless junk and then sell it to overseas investors who aren't paying attention, so one of our friends can get rich, and you can make a lot of commissions?  Well, it doesn't seem noble, but I guess you are still indoors, making money for your company.  A "0" is the golf architecture equivalent of that.

Likewise, nobody in golf really has any credibility with the environmental movement because we have never admitted that we've done ANYTHING wrong.  Until someone has the balls to contrast the bad with the good, and learn from the bad examples, we will always be looked upon with deep suspicion.  

Tom

It has nothing to do with passion.  The problem with your extremes is where does one end it?  If I had my way I would say a shit load of courses - some highly ranked - should never have been built - lets start with Old Head.  But this has more to do with me placing a higher value on land than I do on golf. 

I have said before, that if there is going to be critical analysis in architecture it must first come from architects.  What are the chances of this in such a molly coddling field?  Not many of the "arts" fields are subject to less scrutiny from peers than golf architecture.  It really is a sad state of affairs when peer review at a public level is not valued. 

Ciao

[Art Roselle]

Per Tom Doak's confidential guide...Golf Club of GA Creekside is a zero.  I believe that is his other zero.

I've played it a few times and am looking forward to playing it again soon.  The course is hard to play with very odd and very demanding shots.  However, for some strange reason I like to play it.  Perhaps playing something Tom says is a zero over and over again, helps me "get" what a bad golf course is.  And then playing a good golf course that people don't "get" right away over and over again, helps me understand what a good course is (perhaps #2, TOC fall in these categories).  I remember in Tom's writings, he said that "if people don't think (course x) is good, then they don't know what good is".  That quote stuck with me as very interesting.

Also, someone once told me...you've got to play clunkers to be able to appreciate the gems.  

Whether they warrant 0s or not, TD's descriptions of specific holes at Atlanta National and GCGA Creekside are some of the best lines in the whole Guide.  You have to go to the back to find them, under 18 Worst Holes.

Atlanta National #16 - "Two blind shots in 300 yards.  I have seen other holes of the same description, but not where the architect deliberately created the hills which made it a blind hole."

Creekside #5 is even better (but too long to bother retyping here)

Art

[Steve Strasheim]

Interesting thread.

At least Silvertip has some incredible views. That's worth at least one point on my scale.

I'm playing in an annual charity scramble next weekend at my least favorite course: http://www.himarkgolf.com/courseInfoAerial.html

I wonder if it qualifies for a Doak zero. I'd pay double to be able to look at the mountains instead of the course.

[Michael Huber]

Interesting thread.

At least Silvertip has some incredible views. That's worth at least one point on my scale.

I'm playing in an annual charity scramble next weekend at my least favorite course: http://www.himarkgolf.com/courseInfoAerial.html

I wonder if it qualifies for a Doak zero. I'd pay double to be able to look at the mountains instead of the course.

Looking at highmarks' scorecard, id have to give it at least a 0.5 considering the back tees are considered "blackshirts."  Clever marketing considering the location.

[Jay Flemma]

Atunyote at Turning Stone Casino.  Easily a Doak Zero.

Crestwood in Marcy has become a Doak zero, but more because of horrific conditioning via a vampire landlord who won't spend money on maintenance.

Deering Bay in Florida.

[Matthew Petersen]

I live on another Denver Arthur Hills course (Legacy Ridge). Some of the tee-shots are stupifyingly narrow. #11 is a par-five that requires a 250 yard carry over an environmentally sensitive area which must be threaded between a 20 yard gap in two huge trees.

Another par-five, #6, has a forced lay-up.

The 18th is another par-five with a fairway that is about 10 feet wide for 500 yards.

I don't hate the course (I seem to shoot low scores on it), but what I find interesting about it is that there's almost never anyone else on it. It gets no play. I suspect the duffer has become fed up with it and won't come back.

Matthew, I used to play Legacy Ridge fairly often, but haven't played it in several years.  Among other issues, the homes now completely engulf the course.   There are some very flawed holes there (#6 especially) but I recall some fun ones as well.  There has been a fair amount of Arthur Hills-bashing here and, in my view, for good reason.  The forced lay-up par 5 seems to be a particular specialty of his.  I haven't played Heritage Eagle Bend but my curiosity is now somewhat piqued (although I don't play enough to waste rounds). 

That's disappointing about the houses. I remember the back nine especially being wonderfull open. The front nine issue I had were the 3-4 holes on the opposite side of a busy street. I don't remember 6 being such a forced layup hole. I checked it online and the end of the fairway is 320 from the back tee. Doesn't seem terrible to me.

I do need to make on apology to Heritage Eagle Bend. I looked that course up and realized I slandered its 18th hole. In point of fact, i don't remember the 18th there at all.

I was remember 18 at a course just down the road, formerly called Canterberry, now a private track called Black Bear, I think. Not a great course but not a bad one necessarily. But the 18th there I found absurd.

[Mike Hendren]

I think if you're going to come on this very public site and say some course is a zero, crap, sucks or otherwise impugn the architect professionally, it is your responsibilty to support your contention.  Otherwise, this thread is just a childish school yard dog pile.

Mike

[Tim Nugent]

Interesting thread.

At least Silvertip has some incredible views. That's worth at least one point on my scale.

I'm playing in an annual charity scramble next weekend at my least favorite course: http://www.himarkgolf.com/courseInfoAerial.html

I wonder if it qualifies for a Doak zero. I'd pay double to be able to look at the mountains instead of the course.

Looking at highmarks' scorecard, id have to give it at least a 0.5 considering the back tees are considered "blackshirts."  Clever marketing considering the location.

I like the 488 yds par 4 followed a couple of holes later with a 487 yd par 5

[Mike Cirba]

Two words;

ShoreGate

[Ryan Admussen]

Silvertip in Canada is a course so contrived and unnatural that it DID poison my mind, and one I cannot recommend under any circumstances. This course wasted ridiculous sums of money in its construction, and shouldn’t have been built in the first place.
http://www.silvertipresort.com/

My highlight was the 8 minute cart ride between holes.

Sad thing is most people I've talked to in and around Alberta prefer it to Banff Springs.

[Mac Plumart]

Also, someone once told me...you've got to play clunkers to be able to appreciate the gems. 

True, but how many times do you need to play clunkers?  My time is limited enough that I don't see the point of playing golf courses that aren't any good.  I'll play a crappy course with buddies, but that's only after at least trying to convince them to play somewhere better. 

John...no doubt that is true.  I guess I'll play anything just to see what it is all about.  In all honesty, it has made me really appreicate the good courses so much more.  Now, I get your time comments.  But for me, I want to spend my time learning about golf and golf course architecture.  And if I learn by playing a clunker, it was time well spent for me.  And I am not advocating playing bad courses if you don't want to.  I am just saying that it was suggested to me by people on this site and I have found it to be educational.  That is all.

[RSLivingston_III]

Interesting discussion.
I had been limiting my potential '0' to the most basic of flat farm field courses, typically bunkerless but with little pines or furs planted in straight even spacing between the all parallel fairways.

[George Pazin]

I think if you're going to come on this very public site and say some course is a zero, crap, sucks or otherwise impugn the architect professionally, it is your responsibilty to support your contention.  Otherwise, this thread is just a childish school yard dog pile.

Mike

I'll disagree with my good friend Mike on this. I think anyone has every right to offer unsupported opinion, it's simply up to the reader to decide if this opinion deserves any value.

Having said all that, I find the topic mostly a semantic argument, so not terribly interesting. See the argument Sean offers.

Haven't played any zero's, have played courses I wouldn't go back to by choice. That probably has more to do with $$$ than anything else.

[Carl Johnson]

I think if you're going to come on this very public site and say some course is a zero, crap, sucks or otherwise impugn the architect professionally, it is your responsibilty to support your contention.  Otherwise, this thread is just a childish school yard dog pile.

Mike

Based on the Doak zero definition, I do not take it that classifying a course as a zero by itself impugns the architect professionally at all.  In fact it is conceivable that the architect could do an outstanding job and yet the course itself be a zero.  Of course I don't begrudge an architect making a living, and if he (or she implied) is well paid to design a golf course on wholly unsuitable land and comes away with a "contrived " and "unnatural" result for a developer who's willing to spend a ridiculous amount of money, and does the best he can under the circumstances, then more power to him.  I mentioned the Mountain Air Country Club course in North Carolina, designed by Scott Pool, an architect with whom I am not familiar.  Although I said the course is as close to a zero by the "Doak definition" as any course I've ever played, I would also have to say that I think Pool did as good a job as anyone could have with steep, rocky mountain terrain (not to mention the airplane landing strip) he had to deal with.  Moreover, I do not mean to impugn the Mountain Air Country Club development itself, of which the golf course is only one feature.  What I do mean is that as a golfer this course is not what I'd consider a golf course, though others may, and may be quite happy with it.  I'm too far removed (in time) from playing the course to give a hole-by-hole critique.  Suffice it to say the course is built in very steep, rocky, forested (previously) high mountain land in western North Carolina.  It had to have been a very expensive course to build.  You absolutely could not play it without riding a cart (unless you had all day and were in excellent physical condition).  There are holes that when you stand on the tee you say, "Gee, this looks like it would make an interesting ski run."  Instead of natural landscaping, the owners have used unnatural "garden-style" landscaping.  The architect had nothing to do with this decision, I am sure.

[Mike Nuzzo]

Ryan
Amazing about the preference over Banff.

Tom Doak -- when you get to Banff & Jasper will you visit Silvertip to see another 0?
It took weeks for the self imposed fork wounds in my eyes to heal....

Here is that 8 minute cart ride....