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Jim Colton

The Plight of Kingsley Club in the Rankings
« on: August 05, 2009, 11:20:03 PM »
A lot of discussion about Kingsley and the fact that it is vastly underrated in the ratings.  I completely agree, but can we diagnose potential reasons why Kingsley doesn't show up in Golf Magazine's Top 50 Last 50 or is rated 13th in the state of Michigan in Golf Digest? 

Are all Golf Magazine and Golf Digest raters idiots? (I don't think so)
Do the raters, in general, simply value something different than the typical GCA guy?
Are the ratings themselves biased against a course like Kingsley, somehow keeping it from going higher? 
Are the qualities of Kingsley undervalued by somebody coming and only playing it once (I think Chip G. described it as a great members course, the type you could play forever and never get bored with it.)?  If so, is that enough to explain why it's so low?
Is it just not as good as we think it is?
Are there any GCA guys that are willing to stand up and say, 'Yeah, I played it and it really didn't do much for me' and list why?

Adam Clayman

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Re: The Plight of Kingsley Club in the Rankings
« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2009, 11:42:14 PM »
In the words of Ron Whitten, It must be an acquired taste.  ;)

I can't stand up and say what you asked for Jim, but, I suspect it's could boil down to three greens. The 2nd, 9th and 15th(?)

Their exacting nature is either appreciated, or, more likely based on score, loathed.

Dr. Mackenszie would be proud of Mike for creating such controversy.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Eric Smith

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Re: The Plight of Kingsley Club in the Rankings
« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2009, 11:42:37 PM »
Finding the Kingsley Club can be a bit tricky on your first drive over.  Maybe some of those who have rated it lower are easily frustrated types and got lost - and stayed lost! ;D

Ben Sims

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Re: The Plight of Kingsley Club in the Rankings
« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2009, 11:47:05 PM »

Do the raters, in general, simply value something different than the typical GCA guy?



My fiance's dad is a single digit player that plays twice a week.  His favorite course is Pasatiempo.  He doesn't have a clue who Dr. Mac was, where he designed, and that Cypress Point is a hour down the road and is also one of his.  I was literally sprinting to the plaque on the sixth fairway and he asked what I doing.  I told him.  He said, "Who's that?"  I died a little inside.  He enjoys waterfalls and flowered tee boxes.  Lush rough and soft conditions.  And his entire regular foursome is the same way.  The owner of his home course didn't know who Tom Doak was.  Didn't know who Bill Coore was.  

He represents the average middle class American male golfer much more than any of us golf crazies on this site.  Which is why, IMO, places like Kingsley will never get the recognition they deserve.  It's just too different from what they normally play.  High scores don't equate to fun.  Confusion as to options makes it less enjoyable.  All the things we stand for on the site are normally dismissed by the average retail golfer.  It's unfortunate.  

Andy Troeger

Re: The Plight of Kingsley Club in the Rankings
« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2009, 11:50:55 PM »
Jim,
I have a friend who went up and was not a big fan of Kingsley. He's played all over the world and I thought it would be a course he would love. I'm posting his rationale below (in my words)--I wrote it for a previous thread and am just going to paste it.

"Regarding the fellow at Kingsley, his argument was that the course has too many severe slopes feeding the ball away from the green. The more he mentioned specific situations the more I could see his argument, even if his complaint wasn't something that bothers me. Thinking of the front nine, there are spots on #2, 3, 6, 7, 8, and 9 where the ball can get repelled away from the green. One important point from his perspective was not that balls went away from the green, but the severity of how they did so. The only hole that bothered me was short right of #2, and Mike DeVries has altered the way that plays a bit since I've been there. Its part of the playability argument that we have on here occasionally--for some golfers those kinds of slopes are just as frustrating as lost balls."

That's obviously just one opinion--but I get the idea its a course that's a bit polarizing. Personally, I think Kingsley has a lot in common design-wise with Black Mesa, which is another course that suffers in the ratings perhaps from the same issue. Black Mesa has its detractors even on this website--I think posters are less inclined to post negative thoughts about private clubs in order to not offend their hosts so I'll be surprised if you get anyone to answer your last question.

I've said before that I think the place is great--I'm glad that even though I only played on one day that I played 36 holes with Dan Lucas and part of that with Mike DeVries. I'd be very surprised if there's anyone that knows more about the golf course than those two gentlemen. The first hole is possibly my favorite opener around  ;D

Emil Weber

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Re: The Plight of Kingsley Club in the Rankings
« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2009, 03:12:05 AM »

Do the raters, in general, simply value something different than the typical GCA guy?



My fiance's dad is a single digit player that plays twice a week.  His favorite course is Pasatiempo.  He doesn't have a clue who Dr. Mac was, where he designed, and that Cypress Point is a hour down the road and is also one of his.  I was literally sprinting to the plaque on the sixth fairway and he asked what I doing.  I told him.  He said, "Who's that?"  I died a little inside.  He enjoys waterfalls and flowered tee boxes.  Lush rough and soft conditions.  And his entire regular foursome is the same way.  The owner of his home course didn't know who Tom Doak was.  Didn't know who Bill Coore was.  

He represents the average middle class American male golfer much more than any of us golf crazies on this site.  Which is why, IMO, places like Kingsley will never get the recognition they deserve.  It's just too different from what they normally play.  High scores don't equate to fun.  Confusion as to options makes it less enjoyable.  All the things we stand for on the site are normally dismissed by the average retail golfer.  It's unfortunate.  

Ben,

I think this is the answer. I used to be one of these guys too.

Brad Fleischer

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Re: The Plight of Kingsley Club in the Rankings
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2009, 06:22:08 AM »
Andy,

There are also spots that can also repel your ball ON to the green . Well maybe except for two lol  I mean I hit one so far right on 15 I thought it was dead and it caught the hill and wound up ten feet , I aim right all the time now regardless off pin.

It works both ways and usually even's out ;)

Joe Hancock

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Re: The Plight of Kingsley Club in the Rankings
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2009, 06:34:45 AM »
Brad,

That would be 16?

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Plight of Kingsley Club in the Rankings
« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2009, 07:04:56 AM »

Do the raters, in general, simply value something different than the typical GCA guy?



My fiance's dad is a single digit player that plays twice a week.  His favorite course is Pasatiempo.  He doesn't have a clue who Dr. Mac was, where he designed, and that Cypress Point is a hour down the road and is also one of his.  I was literally sprinting to the plaque on the sixth fairway and he asked what I doing.  I told him.  He said, "Who's that?"  I died a little inside.  He enjoys waterfalls and flowered tee boxes.  Lush rough and soft conditions.  And his entire regular foursome is the same way.  The owner of his home course didn't know who Tom Doak was.  Didn't know who Bill Coore was.  

He represents the average middle class American male golfer much more than any of us golf crazies on this site.  Which is why, IMO, places like Kingsley will never get the recognition they deserve.  It's just too different from what they normally play.  High scores don't equate to fun.  Confusion as to options makes it less enjoyable.  All the things we stand for on the site are normally dismissed by the average retail golfer.  It's unfortunate.  

Ben, if his favorite course in this age of 'fairness' and flat greens because of 11 stimps is Pasatiempo, he gets it more than maybe you give him credit for!  If he enjoys hitting a good iron shot onto one of those Mackenzie greens and then scratches his head wondering, how can I scramble out a par here, he gets it even if he doesn't know who all the players are!

[Sorry you were off flying somewhere when we played with Wyatt at the Bandit last week - although it was a scorcher!  Look forward to meeting you down the road.]

Peter Pratt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Plight of Kingsley Club in the Rankings
« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2009, 08:01:09 AM »
I do think that the severity of the fall-aways around the Kingsley greens is an issue for some. Having said that, I don't think we can chalk up Kingsley's relatively low ratings to difficulty. There are many more difficult courses than Kingsley that are rated higher. Nor can we say it's the average golfer syndrome, as most raters are much better versed in golf course design and its history than the average golfer, regardless of how well he or she plays. I do think that Kingsley, more than many courses, repays replaying. It is quirky and that's its charm. But so are Sand Hills and Pacific Dunes...In the final analysis, I just don't get--the lower ratings, I guess. 

Tom_Doak

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Re: The Plight of Kingsley Club in the Rankings
« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2009, 08:07:00 AM »
It's amazing to me that so many here are oblivious to the polarizing nature of the design at The Kingsley Club.

I think Mike expressly tried to build a course that would polarize opinion.  He wanted to take risks and make a statement.  I took the same approach with High Pointe, and got the same results.  Even among people who loved golf and were well traveled [rankings are not about the average Joe's opinion], some people liked it, and some people hated it.  It did attract a lot of attention, as Kingsley has, but it doesn't take many raters hating a course to knock it way down in the rankings, because there are so many courses so close together anyway.  And if you haven't already built one or two courses that are ranked highly, there are some raters who are not going to give you the benefit of the doubt on something severe.

The same argument applies to Erin Hills, the Castle Course at St. Andrews, Ballyneal, and probably a dozen others I could think of if I tried.  All of those are somewhere along the same continuum ... you either love them or hate them depending on your threshhold for things quirky and severe.  I love that type of golf more than most people, but even I have a threshhold for such things which can be exceeded.  Ballyneal does a little better in the rankings because of the close comparison to Sand Hills, and because as tricky as it is it does not produce a lot of double bogeys, which infuriate the card-and-pencil type of panelist.  But it's still rated way below where most people on this board think it should be, and I'm not surprised by that.  It was meant to be different, and not everyone was going to understand that.  I would hope Mike feels the same way about The Kingsley Club.

P.S.  The new Golf Digest definition of Conditioning should help out Kingsley more than any course ... it is firm and fast and immaculate.  But I don't think the average Golf Digest panelist understands that yet.


Chris_Clouser

Re: The Plight of Kingsley Club in the Rankings
« Reply #11 on: August 06, 2009, 08:07:48 AM »
Jim,

I think there is some validity to all of your questions with the exception to the first one about the raters intelligence.  I don't think they are all idiots either.  

I do think the raters value some different things than the typical GCA poster.  Mystique and access are a big thing as evidenced by their consistent ranking of places that are a lot more expensive or more difficult to access.

I don't know that they are biased, but perhaps there are some elements that some other courses might have on the amenities side of the equation that ratings reward.  

The qualities of Kingsley from a playability aspect are not lost on people when they only play a place once.  The raters I know do notice all of those things like the options off the tee on 14 and hanging out a shot to the right on 16 and letting it roll back down to the green.  I only played the course one time and I saw all of that stuff.  They know what they are looking at and recognize.  It's just that they don't value them as highly as some people on GCA do.  They probably think that most people don't really use the slope on 16 unless they hit a bad shot and get lucky, so in their mind it rewards a less skilled player for hitting a bad shot.  Also, the points that Andy posted about some of the fall-offs around the greens are valid.  Holes 2 and 9 are great holes if you hit a perfect shot from the tee, but if you only hit a marginal shot they can quickly come off as too extreme as you go back and forth over the green multiple times when you think you have hit good shots as I know from personal experience.  

Also, I think your last question has some truth to it as well.  I think we over glamorize some courses on here.  Kingsley is probably the poster child for this.  I personally enjoyed the course a great deal and was very thankful to play with Mike DeVries and Brad Klein on my one visit, but there were several parts of the course that I thought were not as great as others.  The stretch of 10 through 12 I think is a good stretch of holes but it is not world-class for lack of a better term.  I think the width of the fairways on some holes is almost too wide.  The options on several of the holes, like 1 and 14, are not something that benefit a person that doesn't hit the ball a long way off of the tee.  Then you throw in the controversial nature of holes like 2 and 9.  There are a lot of things there that can seperate a very good course from being a great course in the eyes of a rater.  

Basically, I think Kingsley does a lot of things very well.  There are some wonderful holes throughout the course that are even world-class in my mind.  Holes like 13, 15, 16 and 17 make for a wonderful stretch run in my mind.  The front nine has one of the most unique par threes I've seen on the 5th.  I love the 3rd green, probably the scene of my best putt ever that didn't go in.  But in the end, I can see why it doesn't make the top 100.  In comparison a course like Crooked Stick that is #100 in the latest rankings of one of the magazines is a course that I consider comparable to Kingsley in total quality.  But would I say it is better, perhaps, but I could easily see how someone could not.  But then if I compare it to a course that I think is top 100 quality like Old Town, and superior to Kingsley and Crooked Stick by quite a distance in my mind, but it isn't in the top 100.  So it doesn't break my heart when Kingsley doesn't make the top 100.  

Paul_Turner

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Re: The Plight of Kingsley Club in the Rankings
« Reply #12 on: August 06, 2009, 08:11:44 AM »
Tom

Even if you like match-play over stroke. ...it gets tiresome halving many holes in 7 or 8.
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Plight of Kingsley Club in the Rankings
« Reply #13 on: August 06, 2009, 08:49:48 AM »
So the card n pencil mentality is to blame? What a gray way to objectively assess the architecture!  Giving the rater cedit for having more GCA accumen is one of the funnier lines I've read in a while. Thanks
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Bart Bradley

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Re: The Plight of Kingsley Club in the Rankings
« Reply #14 on: August 06, 2009, 09:04:55 AM »
It is my opinion that nothing about Kingsley's course should or can justify leaving it out of the top 100 rankings.  The course is plainly terrific and fun and strategic and challenging.  For me, it just more proof that the system is substantially flawed and that the statistical power of the rankings is not adequate to actually be meaningful in seperating the courses...Look at the the numbers closely and you will see that in golf digest's system, the scores of the the courses in the 50-100 range are very, very minimally different...and given the fact that not every rater sees every course and may have a slightly different take on the scale, the differences may not even reflect a difference in rater perception of the courses.

As others have pointed out, it is not just Kingsley club that suffers from this "plight".

Bart

Jim Franklin

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Re: The Plight of Kingsley Club in the Rankings
« Reply #15 on: August 06, 2009, 09:13:00 AM »
P.S.  The new Golf Digest definition of Conditioning should help out Kingsley more than any course ... it is firm and fast and immaculate.  But I don't think the average Golf Digest panelist understands that yet.

Sadly I believe Tom may be onto something. I think the new conditioning definition is fantastic and a course like Laurel Valley should lose points here and a course like Kingsley should jump. I have been trying to explain to my club that firm and fast and a little brown isn't bad, but the water keeps coming from the sprinklers. Even though we have had more rain the past two months than in a long time.

Kingsley is fantastic. Nuff said.
Mr Hurricane

Andy Troeger

Re: The Plight of Kingsley Club in the Rankings
« Reply #16 on: August 06, 2009, 09:18:05 AM »
Andy,

There are also spots that can also repel your ball ON to the green . Well maybe except for two lol  I mean I hit one so far right on 15 I thought it was dead and it caught the hill and wound up ten feet , I aim right all the time now regardless off pin.

It works both ways and usually even's out ;)

Brad,
There are spots at Kingsley where the ball bounces toward or on the green but they certainly aren't as frequent as the other way around. #1 certainly has a funnel aspect to it, #4 to certain pins, etc. Ironically, sometimes that bugs raters too because they could what they consider a decent shot to the 15th and have it end up left in trouble and then you bounce it in from the right to ten feet and they feel that's not "fair." I'm not agreeing--just sayin!


I believe that the great majority of golfers, including raters, like courses that are somewhat comparable to what they are used to. That even applies to this group--except some here are used to playing places like Kingsley, Ballyneal, Black Mesa, etc. For someone who is not used to that type of golf, they see a hole like #2 and wonder what the heck the designer was thinking. If I had been playing a medal round #2 would have ruined both of my rounds before they even got started as I probably was headed for double digits.

As Tom said, it only takes a few lousy ballots to knock courses way down in the ratings--that's why there can be quite a bit of fluctuation from year to year.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Plight of Kingsley Club in the Rankings
« Reply #17 on: August 06, 2009, 09:18:56 AM »
I played both Crystal Downs and Kingsley on my July 2007 trip to that area, and it was really interesting to see the Crystal Downs antecedents in the design of the Kingsley Club course.  Neither would be popular among those to whom score is everything.  One of my scorecard-and-pencil buddies made a 7 on #1 at Crystal Downs from hole high right in 2, and I think that sort of spoiled the day for him.  I thought that was kind of fun to watch!  :o ;D

Jim Colton

Re: The Plight of Kingsley Club in the Rankings
« Reply #18 on: August 06, 2009, 09:28:08 AM »
Ballyneal doesn't yield double bogeys?  I guessed I never got that memo.

The polarizing nature is the plight that I was talking about.  I guess Kingsley is doomed, but it does provide fodder for us to complain about it every two years.

However, Jim Engh's courses would seem to me to be polarizing in nature, but he does well in the rankings, particularly in Golf Digest.

Tom, looking back would you have done anything different at Ballyneal (I shudder to think) if rankings were an even bigger priority than they were?  Given that you said Ballyneal was one of the great sites that any architect has had the opportunity to work with over the last 75 years, does that create pressure to deliver a course that will be universally viewed as worthy, or is it more important to build a course that a sizable minority think is among the best in the world?

  

Andy Troeger

Re: The Plight of Kingsley Club in the Rankings
« Reply #19 on: August 06, 2009, 09:37:29 AM »

However, Jim Engh's courses would seem to me to be polarizing in nature, but he does well in the rankings, particularly in Golf Digest.
  

Depends on what list you look at. Engh's work is valued by Golf Digest but I think GolfWeek's biggest "fault" is with some of Engh's designs not even making the Top 100 Modern list, namely Lakota Canyon and Tullymore. If you narrowed GW's list down to the Top 50 on each list how many Engh designs would make it? Just one, and barely at that. You don't see people here complaining about that because its not their style of golf, but those courses are polarizing and have their champions as well. Jim Franklin and I usually see things pretty similarly, but I loved Lakota Canyon and he absolutely hates it--so it goes. I'm pretty sure there's even a poster here who's played all over and put Sanctuary in their top five?

Jim Colton

Re: The Plight of Kingsley Club in the Rankings
« Reply #20 on: August 06, 2009, 10:22:18 AM »
Andy,

  I wasn't focused on the GW ratings because Kingsley hasn't suffered there.  If it is polarizing, then most GW guys must be on one side of the coin.  If polarizing is keeping Kingsley off the GD ratings (and 13th in Michigan would suggest that it's nowhere close), then why is it not hurting Engh?  His courses do very well in the GD relative to the others.  I should probably quit talking about magazine bias before Huck bashes me over the head :)

  I do think Bart raises a good point just on the pure numbers side.  For example, take two different guys.  One guy is a public golfer who takes a trip to N Michigan every year with his buddies and Arcadia Bluffs is the cream of the crop, his definition of a 10.  The rest of his rankings flow from there:

1. Arcadia 10
2. Tullymore 9.8
3. Forest Dunes 9.5
4. Black Lake 9.2
5. True North 9.0

The next guy is a guy who plays all over the world, has access to private clubs, etc.  His definition of a 10 is Pine Valley.  He enjoys Kingsley very much but on his relative scale it's a 8.0.  He feels the same was about the other 4 courses relative to Arcadia as the first guy.  His Michigan ratings might look like this:

1. Crystal Downs 9
2. Kingsley Club 8
2. Arcadia Bluffs 8
4. Tullymore 7.8
5. Forest Dunes 7.6
6. Black Lake 7.4
7. True North 7.2

Average them up and you get:

1. Crystal Downs 9
1 Arcadia Bluffs 9
3. Tullymore 8.8
4. Forest Dunes 8.55
5. Kingsley 8.5
6. Black Lake 8.3
7. True North 8.1

If you ask a logical person where Kingsley should be rated given these two pieces of information, their best guess would be Kingsley on par w/ Arcadia and ahead of the others.  Yet the numbers yield much different results.


« Last Edit: August 06, 2009, 11:14:49 AM by Jim Colton »

Matt_Ward

Re: The Plight of Kingsley Club in the Rankings
« Reply #21 on: August 06, 2009, 10:27:15 AM »
Jim:

How much of the "gain" for Arcadia from the people you mention is due solely to the proximity of Lake Michigan?

Plenty of people provide bonus points because of the off-course scenery. Kingsley is an aquired taste -- clearly the Digest has people who provide bonus points to a whole slew of things that have ltitle to do with the elements that Mike DeVries has included.

The funniest thing to me is how Ron Whitten understands the course perfectly but the horde of Digest raters is clueless.

Andy Troeger

Re: The Plight of Kingsley Club in the Rankings
« Reply #22 on: August 06, 2009, 10:37:52 AM »
Andy,

  I wasn't focused on the GW ratings because Kingsley hasn't suffered there.  If it is polarizing, then most GW guys must be on one side of the coin.  If polarizing is keeping Kingsley off the GD ratings (and 13th in Michigan would suggest that it's nowhere close), then why is it not hurting Engh?  His courses do very well in the GD relative to the others.  I should probably quit talking about magazine bias before Huck bashes me over the head :)


Wouldn't it seem then that Kingsley polarizes the Golf Digest panel and Engh polarizes the Golf Week panel. Engh certainly polarizes this group, which seems to follow GW within reasonable proximity.

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Plight of Kingsley Club in the Rankings
« Reply #23 on: August 06, 2009, 10:43:45 AM »
I also wonder if Kingsley suffers because it is a difficult course to appreciate your first time around. 

On our recent GCA trip I was confused by the course on the first round - I really did not have a basis to make any strategic decisions because the advantes and disadvantages of various angles into the green were impossible to figure out.

As I grew to understand the course, I enjoyed it much more.  By the fifth round, I thought it was terrific.

How often do raters play a course 5 times?  I cannot see how it would be practical for anyone to do so on a regular basis.

Jim Colton

Re: The Plight of Kingsley Club in the Rankings
« Reply #24 on: August 06, 2009, 10:47:09 AM »
Here are Arcadia's values for the different categories in GD:
Shot Values:7.72 (counted twice)
Resistance to Scoring: 7.80
Design Variety: 7.75
Memorability: 8.36
Aesthetics: 8.51
Conditioning: 7.67
Ambience: 7.64

Crystal Downs:
Shot Values:8.22
Resistance to Scoring: 8.16
Design Variety: 8.44
Memorability: 8.42
Aesthetics: 8.29
Conditioning: 8.03
Ambience: 8.37

Tullymore:
Shot Values: 7.67
Resistance to Scoring: 7.85
Design Variety: 7.88
Memorability: 7.77
Aesthetics: 7.71
Conditioning: 7.74
Ambience: 7.09

What are the definitions of Memorability and Aesthetics?  Seems like they are highly correlated.