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Mike Cirba

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #1250 on: December 29, 2010, 12:30:06 PM »
Phil,

Don't know the answer but much of that area is low-lying and a bit swampy and I know Leeds had some issues with mowing those holes that required special footwear for the horses.

Signed,
Sitting in traffic behind accident driving to Hilton Head

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #1251 on: December 29, 2010, 12:40:44 PM »
Mike,
Give the electronic device to your wife for the week and have a nice vacation.  ;) ;D
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Mike Cirba

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #1252 on: December 29, 2010, 01:39:06 PM »
Jim,

Great idea!  Thanks!  ;D

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #1253 on: December 29, 2010, 02:30:26 PM »
Mike Cirba,  

While you are enjoying your vacation, perhaps you will honestly consider why it is that you are incapable of backing up your claims about the newspaper article.

As you may recall, your claims were prompted by my observation that, if you can figure out a way to ignore multiple contemporaneous accounts indicating that Campbell laid out the course,  then obviously you are unwilling or unable to honestly consider the source material.

My observation apparently prompted your claims that these articles contained "laughable, obvious mistakes throughout."   You compared them to toilet paper, "Charmin," and claimed that accepting any of the articles as true  would mean that the clubs would need to "burn their club minutes and contemporaneous records and recollections and rewrite their history."

Since you made these claims, I have repeatedly asked you to back them up as to just one of the articles.  While you have written repeatedly that you would provide a detailed answer, you have nonetheless avoided answering.  

Your seemingly endless avoidance of these straight-forward questions takes us full circle, and back to my original observation:

If you can figure out a way to ignore multiple contemporaneous accounts indicating that Campbell laid out the course, then you are unwilling or unable to honestly consider the source material.

That is exactly what is going on here. Or, if I am wrong, then you should have no trouble answering my questions.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2010, 02:32:38 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

TEPaul

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #1254 on: December 29, 2010, 03:58:23 PM »
This is how I would look at the architectural evolution and attribution of Myopia at this time and I believe the club supports and endorses this evolution and attribution.

1.   The original 1894 nine was routed by three members (Appleton, Merrill and Gardner) in the early spring of 1894. At some point later in the spring after his arrival (March 31, 1894) in Boston from Scotland, Willie Campbell helped the club with the development of the course before its opening in the beginning of June, 1894 and that the contributions of both parties are not mutually exclusive. The source for the three members involvement are contemporaneous club records and the source for Campbell are contemporaneous newspaper accounts. The club appears to have no mention of Campbell’s involvement in their contemporaneous club records.


2.   It is possible to some good degree to track the changes hole by hole between the original 1894 nine, the Long Nine that was used for the 1898 US Open, and the eighteen hole course that was developed and first put into play by 1900 and used for the 1901, 1906 and 1908 US Opens. It is essentially the same course that is there today and it is remarkably well preserved.

3.   Edward Weeks’s centennial Myopia history book (Myopia 1875-1975) is an excellent history of Myopia that includes the histories of baseball, tennis, fox hunting, polo and golf over the years. It is 151 pages and definitely does not include every single fact and event that was recorded by the club over the years and that can be found in their archives. However, there are no mistakes in fact or interpretations of the facts of the golf course that I can find in Weeks's book other than one minor one where Weeks appears to refer to the second hole of the original 1894 nine as the present 8th hole (that would have been virtually impossible given the other facts on that original 1894 ninec that he mentioned that can also be found in the club’s archives.

Therefore, I cannot imagine why a thread on this subject should’ve run on for 36 pages. If this thread had simply stuck to the relevant issues that were mentioned by a few very occasional contributors such as Paul Turner (#21) or Niall Carlton (#271) it probably would have been over and done with and settled in a page or two. All the rest of the regular contributors, including me, simply engaged in the over-arguing of minor or largely irrelevant points and issues----something that is sometimes referred to on here as "Noise." There was no and is no good reason for any contributor on here to have assumed or concluded that an involvement in the 1894 nine by Appleton, Merrill and Gardner from the club and Willie Campbell from outside the club was mutually exclusive in 1894 and there is even less good reason for anyone to label on here Weeks’s book to be nothing more than a work of fiction, fantasy and myth, as one participant has done on this thread numerous times.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2010, 04:05:47 PM by TEPaul »

Phil_the_Author

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #1255 on: December 29, 2010, 04:28:36 PM »
Tom,

Maybe you missed this question that I asked, and as it goes to the heart of the priginal and later designs, I was wondering if you had an answer.

51 acres seems like a lot of land, especially in the 1890's, for only 3 & 1/2 holes. Why did they use so little of it for golf?

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #1256 on: December 29, 2010, 04:53:11 PM »
TePaul,

Sounds reasonable to me.

Phil,

Having looked at the maps, I would say Hopkins sold off the back of his estate as unnecessary to him, regardless of acreage.  And, while we don't know where the three disbanded holes from the original nine were exactly, when I look at the comparitive routings, I have no trouble believing that they simply reinstated those holes, which happend to have been near Hopkins estate and which may have been in the most logical place, compliments of the committee and possibly Willie Campbell.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

TEPaul

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #1257 on: December 29, 2010, 05:01:47 PM »
"51 acres seems like a lot of land, especially in the 1890's, for only 3 & 1/2 holes. Why did they use so little of it for golf?"

I would say because not all of it is usable. The holes don't come that near the road and there is a pretty good amount of wetlands, creeks and a pretty decent ridge between the holes.

This is all just another reason why I feel to really understand some of the ramifications of the evolution of some golf courses and their architecture you really do have to have a lot of experience with the course and its land. There are just some things no one can do or learn about golf course architecture over the Internet.

Mike Cirba

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #1258 on: December 29, 2010, 06:07:50 PM »
David,

Did you miss where I said I believe both stories are true and that I believe Campbell was indeed involved?   I just wish more details and records  were available to us.

Have a Happy New Year!

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #1259 on: December 29, 2010, 07:22:13 PM »
You have written a lot of different things, Mike.  What I am most concerned with right now are your claims that:

1.  The article I posted contains "laughable, obvious mistakes throughout."
2.  The article I posted is akin to toilet paper.  "Charmin," specifically.  
3.  The article I posted contradicts the club records to the extent, that, if the article was taken seriously, the club might as well "burn their club minutes and contemporaneous records and recollections and rewrite their history."

Did you change your mind?  Do you now agree that there is nothing to your claims?  If so, when why did you claim these things in the first place?  And why did you stand by your claims for so long, even  repeatedly claiming that you would explain your basis for the claims.  Why did you dance around the issue and  make me pester you for days before finally coming clean?  Are you starting to understand why we oftentimes become frustrated with what seems to be a less than honest treatment of the source material?  

Or, if you haven't changed your mind, please provide your basis for claiming the above.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2010, 07:26:07 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #1260 on: December 30, 2010, 08:15:06 AM »

This is how I would look at the architectural evolution and attribution of Myopia at this time and I believe the club supports and endorses this evolution and attribution.


This is a fitting exclamation point to this very informative thread, and I couldn't be more proud. To think that a thread would result in TEP traveling to Boston gathering up his membership and then having them come to this consensus is remarkable. Equally remarkable the free thinking Jeff Bauer agrees too, and he is certainly no one's lap dog. The one thing I'm not completely clear on, "Willie Campbell helped the club with the development of the course", that exactly does that mean?

Mike Cirba

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #1261 on: December 30, 2010, 09:48:28 AM »
David,

Since we don't know all the facts of what happened back then, it's difficult to say which specific parts of that specific article may be in error.

What we do know is that of the small handful of articles produced here from the first half of 1894 in those gossip and sporting columns, there is a veritable feast of inaccuracies, such as "two new links" opening at Myopia, the reporting of the Opening Day tourney at Myopia reported as happening at Essex in Manchester, the claim that HC Leeds only started playing in spring of 1894 and so on.

We also know that reporters copied articles from each other, leading to repeating errors such as the "two new links" and the listing of the four "experts" in two different papers on subsequent days. 

We also know that most of the opening reports spoke of both Myopia and Essex clubs within the same articles, strangely blending them in ways that make reading confusing as to specifics.   We also know that Campbell redesigned the Essex course in the same timeframe, possibly adding to the confusion.

We also know that Campbell was brought over to serve in dual functions for the Brookline and Essex courses, but not originally under formal employ of Myopia, so what he did for them under what arrangement is not evidently recorded.

If I were to guess about factual errors in that specific article, I'd say that golf was likely played on the course by the members before the Opening day tourney..Bush cited June 1st, and I'd say that the compliments of the game of Hopkins read like the gossip column report it was, and I'm not sure why Essex needed mention.

Was the report of Campbell laying out Myopia simply more of the same cross club confusion evident in other articles of the period?  We don't know for sure, as the only mention of Campbell doing Myopia seems to be related to reporting of the Opening day event.

That being said, generally when there is smoke, there is usually some fire, so for my understanding right now I think the preponderance of evidence is that both stories are true and they certainly are not mutually exclusive.

I do wish it were clearer, but unless someone finds more definitive evidence I simply would conclude that it is very likely Campbell made a contribution to the creation of Myopia's first nine holes.   I just wish we knew better what that entailed.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #1262 on: December 30, 2010, 10:14:48 AM »
TMac,

You are either tweaking me in your not so pithy way, misrepresenting me, or just plain dumb as a stump. I doubt its the latter, really, but just in case, I will type very slowly on this post to help you read it more clearly! ;) :)

I do not believe you need to take either the Weeks history or TePaul's take on it as gospel.  However, I do believe that contemporaneous club records exist, based on TePaul's telling us he has seen them briefly.  I do not think he is lying about that.  So, even though we don't know what they say, we do know with reasonable certainty that they exist.

So my question is, if you and DM are going to publicly proffer another theory of the design of MH, and do so knowing that you are NOT including information from all contemporaneous records know to exist, how can you say that is good historical research, and/or that your conclusion is sound?  In essence, I am agreeing with you that we need to have all the sources at our disposal, which we simply don't have.

Simply put, it may not be reckless research, but it is certainly incomplete research, and not worth 37 pages of vicious debate.

BTW, as to being confused as to what Willie did at Myopia, I think we all are.  There is no real record of what he did do there, to the level of specificity any of us would like.  However, I will say that the recently posted article from 1897 expansion of Myopia states that it will take from July to next spring to open the new links, which somewhat discounts your theory that courses in that era just took a few weeks to open for play.  Granted, the first links in 1894 were described as a improvised course, and the later version was supposed to be permanent, which may have taken more time.......

I don't recall, but did you post the actual articles that you say were your sources for that claim, or did we just have to take your word for it that you had read them somewhere?

Again, happy new year to you and yours.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2010, 10:18:51 AM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Kevin Lynch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #1263 on: December 30, 2010, 11:39:40 AM »

So my question is, if you and DM are going to publicly proffer another theory of the design of MH, and do so knowing that you are NOT including information from all contemporaneous records know to exist, how can you say that is good historical research, and/or that your conclusion is sound?  In essence, I am agreeing with you that we need to have all the sources at our disposal, which we simply don't have.

Simply put, it may not be reckless research, but it is certainly incomplete research, and not worth 37 pages of vicious debate.


Jeff,

I think this summarizes the whole basis for the contention here.  I don't think "incomplete" is a categorical barrier to research being deemed "good" or "sound" and certainly not an indicator of "recklessness."  But it does create an uphill battle.  Without all the current information, the researcher must realize there is a greater POTENTIAL that his conclusions may be contradicted, but it doesn't make his conclusions necessarily right or wrong.  If the researcher is acting in good faith based on the information he has and indicates that his conclusions are based on that data, that's all I can ask.  I think there should be a tacit understanding of "here are my conclusions based on what I know, but I'm open to consider additional information that you can show me."

I don't think there should be blanket judgment regarding any of the theories offered up.  Each has to be judged by the amount and quality of evidence actually used in formulating a theory.  In other words, we need to focus on what we have, not what may be missing (especially if it's not made available).  The more "external information" that is gathered and is corroborated, the less critical the "internal information" becomes.  The soundness of a theory shouldn't be judged on a "black/white" scale of "do you have everything or not?"  Rather, it should be judged on a continuum, with each piece of available & corroborated evidence progressing the soundness of the theory.   

Conversely, the researcher can't try to defend a theory like an absolute "black/white" proposition, either.  If a portion of evidence is challenged, it can't be treated like it fully "proves" or "negates" a theory - it simply advances you up or down the continuum (unless, it's your only piece of evidence). 


Unfortunately, it seems like most of the viciousness here isn't about the quality of the evidence here judged on a continuum.  Rather, it's usually about "black/white" presumptions of motive.  Very little can be viewed objectively if we are trying to look at it through a prism of presumed motivation - everything gets distorted.

I have seen many examples on these threads in my short time here:

We can't presume club information is unavailable because there "something to be hidden."  Perhaps the club wishes to remain private, perhaps there is little there, or maybe there is an error. 

We can't refer to Club Histories as romanticized fictions - I'm sure they range widely along the continuum from PR / entertainment to intense research.

We can't make a blanket presumption about "gossip" columns.  Sometimes they are dead wrong.  But sometimes, they convey helpful information (in this case there is usually some corroboration).  I found the discussion of "hypocrisy" a few pages ago to be pretty amusing and illustrative of the dangers of "absolute" thinking.

We can't judge the lack of Club Records as reckless research.  Perhaps the researcher felt he had enough external evidence.  Perhaps it was desired but accepted as unlikely to be received.  Perhaps it was flatly denied.

And most importantly, we can't presume that past regrettable behaviors or mistakes will keep perpetuating.  There has been far too much bad blood spilled, with very few people who are blameless.  The only chance of reasonable discussion is to try and look ahead and leave the past regrets / mistakes behind.

Usually, the posts that start the downward spiral include one of these phrases:

"There you go again (insert name).  You always (insert presumed motivation here)...... "

"Like I'm going to listen to a guy who  (insert past mistake / regrettable behavior here)..." 


Perhaps a New Year's resolution for these threads can be to hit "Preview" before "Post" and if anything in the post resembles the above two phrases, it be given a second consideration (and third, in cases of high tension).

Happy New Year to everyone!

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #1264 on: December 30, 2010, 01:34:21 PM »
Mike Cirba,  Once again you failed to answer my questions.   My point here is that you play fast and loose with the source material, and distort it at your convenience to try and make whatever point you want to make.   Perhaps I should thank you for continuing to make my point for me.  

Why would you have to "guess" at the "errors" in that newspaper account.   You have already stated that it contains "laughable, obvious mistakes throughout," that it was akin to toilet paper, and that it contradicts the club records to the extent, that, if the article was taken seriously, the club might as well "burn their club minutes and contemporaneous records and recollections and rewrite their history."  So surely you must be able to point out some errors without guessing?   Or without further fudging the source material, specifically the Bush statement?  

Bush hadn't really "cited June 1st" had he?    Surely you understand the significance of leaving out the word "about" here, don't you?  (Of course you do, otherwise you would not have left it out the word.) You are getting more and more like your mentor every day.

Word of advice.  If you have to fudge the source material, leave out words here and there, overstate your case, etc., then it is your position that needs reworking, not the facts.   

Aside from your misleading presentation of the Bush quote, are there any other portions of the club record that this quote contradicts?    
« Last Edit: December 30, 2010, 01:39:39 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Brad Tufts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #1265 on: December 30, 2010, 01:49:24 PM »
And most importantly, we can't presume that past regrettable behaviors or mistakes will keep perpetuating.  There has been far too much bad blood spilled, with very few people who are blameless.  The only chance of reasonable discussion is to try and look ahead and leave the past regrets / mistakes behind.

Usually, the posts that start the downward spiral include one of these phrases:

"There you go again (insert name).  You always (insert presumed motivation here)...... "

"Like I'm going to listen to a guy who  (insert past mistake / regrettable behavior here)..."  

Perhaps a New Year's resolution for these threads can be to hit "Preview" before "Post" and if anything in the post resembles the above two phrases, it be given a second consideration (and third, in cases of high tension).

Happy New Year to everyone!


I've been reading all along due to my Myopia connection (worked there for a year in 2004, played the course many times)...and I was imagining how cool this thread would be without all the blather and accusations like Kevin mentions.  Someone could literally go through and delete all of the insults, etc. and have one of the best GCA threads ever left over.  And it might only have been 20 pages instead of 37.

I was gifted a Weeks Myopia history book for xmas...so that is cool, regardless of what everyone thinks of it...
So I jump ship in Hong Kong....

Mike Cirba

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #1266 on: December 30, 2010, 02:30:12 PM »
David,

I'm sorry but I'm not going to limit this discussion to a single anonymous article in a gossip column when taken as a whole I've already proven that the early Boston newspaper reporting was rife with factual errors and basic misunderstandings.
  
I can understand why you wouldn't want to discuss the big picture here but it is shortsighted...myopic, actually.

The golfers in Boston at that time were relative beginners.

The golf writers in Boston at that time were gossip writers who exhibited almost wholesale ignorance of the game and I am surprised you can so easily accept what they wrote as your only piece of evidence in this discussion.

I think in your shoes I'd happily settle out of court and be glad to if my whole case was based on such flimsy factual evidence by an anonymous source.

« Last Edit: December 30, 2010, 02:45:44 PM by MCirba »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #1267 on: December 30, 2010, 03:32:46 PM »
Mike Cirba,

Nice try, but YOU are the one who claimed that this newspaper account contained "laughable, obvious mistakes throughout," that it was akin to toilet paper, and that it contradicts the club records to the extent, that, if the article was taken seriously, the club might as well "burn their club minutes and contemporaneous records and recollections and rewrite their history." 

All I have done is request that you back up your claims, and you said you would.   If after all of this you want to distance yourself from your own ridiculous claims and recant, then please do us the courtesy of at least being honest about it. 

Thanks. 
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #1268 on: December 30, 2010, 03:33:30 PM »

I was gifted a Weeks Myopia history book for xmas...so that is cool, regardless of what everyone thinks of it...

Brad,  Sounds like a very cool Christmas gift.  

_________________________________________

One of the real disappointments of these threads to me is - as Brad's post implies - that these debates are usually framed as if some of us have little respect or appreciation for the work of others like Weeks who have tried to figure these things out in the past.  Framing it in such a manner greatly distorts what is really ongoing, and does a disservice to anyone who has ever bothered to  try and figure these thing out, including Weeks.  

I've said repeatedly on this thread and others that I have great respect for anyone who tries to sort out these confusing histories.  Unlike most who post here, I know firsthand how difficult and confusing these early sources can be to decipher.  Whatever the source, the available information is undoubtedly less than perfect, yet the expectation is for a coherent and cohesive narrative that makes complete sense in all aspects.   While I don't own it myself, I have little doubt that Weeks did the best he could with the information he had, which is all that can be expected of any researcher.  

From my perspective, though, what has happened is that some here have chosen to treat these club histories as something they were never intended to be.  They are not Bibles.  They are not Gospels. They are not infallible.  I have yet to see one that did not contain what I view as significant factual shortcomings, especially when it comes to these earliest of courses.  

Surely if Weeks were around he would readily acknowledge that his information was not perfect, complete, or infallible.   Surely he did not have internet databases, or access to multiple newspaper accounts.  Had he seen the repeated reports that WILLIE CAMPBELL "LAID OUT" THE ORIGINAL COURSE, or even the multiple mentions that Campbell was the professional at Myopia in 1896, he would have mentioned it.  Had he known specifically what went on in March of 1893, would not have written about what these guys "probably" marked off the greens with pegs.  Had he been working off of complete minutes covering the details of what happened, he would have needed to speculate and he surely would have known the date of the Executive Meeting and the correct name of the Club Secretary.   It is inevitable that new information becomes available, and as the source material changes, so to must these histories, that is if one is concerned with accuracy.  

Yet some here pretend as if once it is down on paper in book form, and once a Club stamps their endorsement on a version, that the history is set in stone.  That it is unchallengeable SCRIPTURE, now and for ever.  It must be correct, otherwise Myopia wouldn't have endorsed it.  Here is how TEPaul put it in post 1067(!):

There is no reason at all for anyone to try to change that history today or at any time in the future. It's done now and it was all well enough recorded!

That is what we are dealing with here.  An unreasonable and undying loyalty to this single version of the history.  An assumption that this version is infallible and all other source material must be read as consistent with this account or discounted.  It must be both the starting point and conclusion of all future research.

For example, in the same post, TEPaul acknowledges that Campbell must have done something, but then immediately discounts and dismisses the importance of his involvement using nothing but his questionalbe interpretation the Weeks text.  Campbell "obviously had something to do with it in 1894 but apparently not enough for the club to mention because they just never felt it was significant enough."  The Weeks book as the Holy Scripture of Myopia, the starting point, and the end point.  If Weeks didn't mention Campbell, well then Campbell must not have been very important, and if Campbell wasn't very important, well the Weeks wouldn't have mentioned it, etc.  Weeks as the end-all and be-all.  As TEPaul put it in post in post 1203, with my emphasis:

I realize we all may have different styles and methods of doing research and analyzing things but when I read something like that in Weeks's book and the thought occurs to me where he may've been looking when he wrote that information, my first inclination is to start at the time he was writing about and look there and go forward from there if I have to rather than starting with Wade in 1974 or Weeks in 1975 and go backward looking for the first evidence of the mention of it. And I'm glad I did it that way as it saved me 80 to 81 years of looking through!

This forms the basis of the disagreement here.  Trust in Weeks.  If it happened and was important, Weeks covered it.  Therefore, if Weeks did not cover it, then it didn't happen, or was at least not important enough to mention.

Did Weeks think he was writing infallible and unquestionable Scripture?  Did he intend to right the Myopia Bible, Weeks Version?  Somehow I doubt it. Yet TEPaul, Brauer, and Cirba have all maintained this postion, and repeatedly so.

What all these threads come down to:  Do we view history as something to be proclaimed by the Club involved or its self-appointed spokespersons (who like true Prophets rarely come up with much proof) and then trusted and obeyed as Scripture?  Or do we view history as an evolving conversation, one that changes and becomes more refined as new information and better analysis becomes available?

In my view, the HISTORY AS SCRIPTURE is not history at all.  It is more akin to religion.  And the approach is not even fair to these Clubs.  Not in the least bit.  They may think they pretty much know what happened, but they couldn't possibly know exactly what happened.  Such is the nature of history, and this is why they commissioned their club histories in the first place; to preserve as much of the history as they can before it becomes too vague, amorphous, and flawed to ever piece together again.  

The Clubs and the authors undoubtedly tried to get it exactly right, but holding them out as able to Christen any version as exactly correct is an unreasonable expectation to impose on them.  To threat these Clubs and authors think they have it exactly right is to guarantee that they will be proven wrong.  That is not fair to them and especially unfair to the authors, because no historian worth his salt would ever claim to be infallible.  Were history easy to perfectly unravel, there would have been no need for them in the first place.      
« Last Edit: December 30, 2010, 03:41:23 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mike Cirba

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #1269 on: December 30, 2010, 06:11:00 PM »
David,

You are either mistaken or you're putting words in my mouth claiming my statement was directly at that article alone.

When I referred to Charmin Toilet Paper (TM), :) I was talking about ALL the news articles we've posted on this thread in general, and not that one specifically.

To quote, I wrote;


David/Tom,

What about the 1894 news articles do you find credible, knowledgeable, or somehow convincing?

There are laughable, obvious mistakes throughout;  and on this foundation of Charmin you believe the club should burn their club minutes and contemporaneous records and recollections and rewrite their history??!



I was referring primarily to the type(s) of early golf writing found in these gossip columns about Myopia I listed on my Post #1180 on Christmas Day which I'll repeat below, or the one Tom MacWood posted that stated HC Leeds had only started golfing that spring;


Some of you likely remember when I posted this article previously from April 15th, 1894, which lists the creation of a subcommittee at Myopia, the location of the third member A.P. Gardner in Hamilton at the time, and then talks about Willie Campbell's assignment that year to Essex County in June.




And then later, on June 10th, I copied the following story that very strangely talked about "two new links"

June 10th, 1894,


•Bunker Hill day will be observed
at the Myopia hunt by the initial games
in two newly laid out golf links. The
expert players who will take part are
Mr W. B. Thomas, Mr R. M. Appleton,
Mr A. P. Gardner and Mr T. Wattson
Merrill.


And then later still I posted the Opening Day tournament results;




So far, so good...except for the strange reference to "two links", seemed straight forward enough..

Then, the other day, Joe Bausch was doing some research in another newspaper and sent me this snippet from June 15th;




What?!   Another reference to "two new links"?   Could there be two courses built at Myopia opening at the same time??


No, not really...

Besides the fact that it seems these newspapers shared information, the following article from June 19, 1894 Joe sent to me sheds some light on the confusion of the writer(s).




So, this is why I asked the question whether there is any other source of evidence, anywhere, that indicates that Willie Campbell had either planned (pre tournament) to lay out the Myopia course, or anything not associated with the tournament that indicated he did, and what was the source of that information?

We do know he went to Essex County that year, and that he laid out a new course for that club in around the same time.

If the novice Boston golf writers of the time were just trying to figure out what this new-fangled game was all about, and were cobbling information, good and bad, from each other, are we absolutely certain that references to Campbell at Myopia weren't in fact confusing it with his new course at Essex??

This is why I think total reliance on news articles paints a very incomplete picture, and they are indeed fallible as we've seen here.

Willie Campbell may very well have been involved in laying out Myopia, but I have a heck of lot less certainty about that than I did a few weeks ago before starting to dig into this thing...



To wit, I have no idea if the article you posted has additional errors than claiming golf was only started at Myopia during the Opening Day tourney, or bragging about the exploits of Dr. Hopkins a week after he first touched a club.

It's just that the error percentage is SOOOOO high in these articles as to make them laughable as sole sources of evidence to overturn a club's history.


« Last Edit: December 30, 2010, 06:17:08 PM by MCirba »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #1270 on: December 30, 2010, 09:52:54 PM »
David,

Your post 1268 is thoughtful and well reasoned.  I don't think anyone thinks that club histories are infallible.....but they aren't necessarily wrong either, so some feel they should be given the benefit of the doubt when STARTING a more in depth study of architectural history.  After that, it goes where it goes using whatever tools are at our disposal.

In regards to Mikes point about newspaper articles another thought occurred to me today when discussing newspapers with a friend.  Basically, when there is headline news, like someone getting indicted, its on the front page.  IF the newspapers have made a mistake, or even if the indictment is dropped later, these articles/retractions are always buried a few days later on page 29!

My only suggestion to anyone using newspapers is to check the way back pages from a few weeks later to make sure there wasn't some kind of original mistake.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #1271 on: December 30, 2010, 11:29:58 PM »
David,

You are either mistaken or you're putting words in my mouth claiming my statement was directly at that article alone.

When I referred to Charmin Toilet Paper (TM), :) I was talking about ALL the news articles we've posted on this thread in general, and not that one specifically.

To quote, I wrote;


David/Tom,

What about the 1894 news articles do you find credible, knowledgeable, or somehow convincing?

There are laughable, obvious mistakes throughout;  and on this foundation of Charmin you believe the club should burn their club minutes and contemporaneous records and recollections and rewrite their history??!



I was referring primarily to the type(s) of early golf writing found in these gossip columns about Myopia I listed on my Post #1180 on Christmas Day which I'll repeat below, or the one Tom MacWood posted that stated HC Leeds had only started golfing that spring;


Some of you likely remember when I posted this article previously from April 15th, 1894, which lists the creation of a subcommittee at Myopia, the location of the third member A.P. Gardner in Hamilton at the time, and then talks about Willie Campbell's assignment that year to Essex County in June.




And then later, on June 10th, I copied the following story that very strangely talked about "two new links"

June 10th, 1894,


•Bunker Hill day will be observed
at the Myopia hunt by the initial games
in two newly laid out golf links. The
expert players who will take part are
Mr W. B. Thomas, Mr R. M. Appleton,
Mr A. P. Gardner and Mr T. Wattson
Merrill.


And then later still I posted the Opening Day tournament results;




So far, so good...except for the strange reference to "two links", seemed straight forward enough..

Then, the other day, Joe Bausch was doing some research in another newspaper and sent me this snippet from June 15th;




What?!   Another reference to "two new links"?   Could there be two courses built at Myopia opening at the same time??


No, not really...

Besides the fact that it seems these newspapers shared information, the following article from June 19, 1894 Joe sent to me sheds some light on the confusion of the writer(s).




So, this is why I asked the question whether there is any other source of evidence, anywhere, that indicates that Willie Campbell had either planned (pre tournament) to lay out the Myopia course, or anything not associated with the tournament that indicated he did, and what was the source of that information?

We do know he went to Essex County that year, and that he laid out a new course for that club in around the same time.

If the novice Boston golf writers of the time were just trying to figure out what this new-fangled game was all about, and were cobbling information, good and bad, from each other, are we absolutely certain that references to Campbell at Myopia weren't in fact confusing it with his new course at Essex??

This is why I think total reliance on news articles paints a very incomplete picture, and they are indeed fallible as we've seen here.

Willie Campbell may very well have been involved in laying out Myopia, but I have a heck of lot less certainty about that than I did a few weeks ago before starting to dig into this thing...



To wit, I have no idea if the article you posted has additional errors than claiming golf was only started at Myopia during the Opening Day tourney, or bragging about the exploits of Dr. Hopkins a week after he first touched a club.

It's just that the error percentage is SOOOOO high in these articles as to make them laughable as sole sources of evidence to overturn a club's history.


Never has one man gone to such extremes not to answer a question...what a farce.

Happy New Year!

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #1272 on: December 31, 2010, 01:29:44 AM »
Actually I have been wondering just how far Mike will go to avoid honestly considering the multiple contemporaneous accounts indicating that Campbell laid out the course.

Whether he knows it or not he has answered that question. 

Newspaper accounts are far from perfect, but they are much more reliable than some here suggest, at least so long as the person doing the interpreting understands the context, and carefully considers the source.  Sure, there are occasional mistakes, but oftentimes one can even figure out what is behind these mistakes.

Unfortunately Mike tries to use them like he uses everything else in these discussions, as fodder to serve his agenda.   So one day newspaper articles about "expert golfers" and the formation of the sub-committee can form the basis of his belief that AM&P designed the course, and the next day he can reason that because some newspapers accounts contain mistakes then they are all useless.  Otherwise how could he ignore the article I posted repeatedly above? 
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mike Cirba

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #1273 on: December 31, 2010, 08:24:09 AM »
David,

I did "consider the source".   That's the problem here.

What can you tell me about him?

And I did lend more credence in the beginning to the articles I found.   It was only when Joe Bausch later sent me a parroted copy of the "expert" article from another paper, as well as the reporting of the Opening Day Tournament at Myopia happening in Manchster at Essex CC, or that we found two "sheep" identical articles in two different papers that I knew pretty clearly...

Boston, we have a problem!  ;D

Happy New Year, as well. 
« Last Edit: December 31, 2010, 08:37:09 AM by MCirba »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #1274 on: December 31, 2010, 08:34:18 AM »
Gents,

Good morning to all on the last day of 2010!

I will agree that Mike is getting a bit far afield in defending his non answer.  He has a point about the veracity of newspapers, but it doesn't really prove whether the quotes about Campbell designing the golf course are true or not.

I will say that the writer does give us non Myopia related clues as to how hard he digs for a story with this snippet:

"There will be an entertainment and dance Tuesday, in Milton, for the benefit of a charity."  Doesn't a good reporter answer the who, what, why, where and when question in an article?  He answers the when and where question here, but seems totally unconcerned with the who, what and why aspects. 

If the same emphasis was used on the opening day tournament story, we would have a potential problem with his veracity.  He certainly doesn't appear to be digging as hard as David, TMac, or any other participant on this thread for the truth.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach