News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #125 on: August 05, 2009, 09:36:18 AM »
Tom P

I note your comment that Appleton etc laid out Myopia in the Spring of 1894. I also note that you have Spring as being March, is this your interpretation or the clubs ? The reason I ask is that I have a contemporary article which has Campbell sailing for the US about the last week of March (from memory, will need to check).

Niall

TEPaul

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #126 on: August 05, 2009, 09:54:17 AM »
"Tom P
I note your comment that Appleton etc laid out Myopia in the Spring of 1894. I also note that you have Spring as being March, is this your interpretation or the clubs ?"


Niall:

It's the club's.




"TEP
Yours is an interesting theory, not very logical, but interesting. Are those the same administrative records that have no record of Willie Campbell working for the club?"


Tom:

No, there're not. They are the administrative records that record Appleton, Merrill and Gardner staking out a nine hole course in the spring of 1894 with the permission from the club (March) to construct a nine hole golf course. I realize some people such as yourself might call it a theory and not very logical but nevertheless it is part of the club's administrative records just as that Wilson report is part of Merion's administrative records that you also said virtually made no sense to you.  ;)



"Thanks Tom, I'll check the article tonight and at least type out what is on it if I can't manage to post. BTW how long did it take to make the crossing back in those days ?"


Niall:

I'd say probably 5-6 days back then but depending on a lot of things like weather, seas, ports of call etc. There is a ship passenger manifest list on this thread with Campbell's name on it but I can't make out the date his ship (The Carthaginian) arrived in Boston in March. I also don't know where Campbell got aboard but being a Scot I suppose it would've been Glasgow. The ship also made stops in Liverpool and Halifax before Boston. But it looks like the manifest says the ship arrived in Boston in March (again, I can't read the exact day).

I'd say the answer to this Willie Campbell thing is he probably did some work on the course when they were doing whatever construction they did which was apparently quite minimal---eg they depended on things like stone walls, roads and high pasture land grass for rough as their hazards, the fairways were mowed down by penned in sheep and the greens were sodded and mowed the same way (penned in sheep). But it looks to me like those three members routed the nine hole original course by staking tees and green sites before Campbell got to Boston. At least that's what the executive committee records said and I see no reason to think they would be sitting there in an executive committee meeting lying to one another when they were in the process of doing something like that and recording it. Do you?

I mean, Niall, I have no problem at all with anyone on here discussing what some old newspaper articles may mean about what the likes of Campbell may've done for Myopia in 1894 or what Macdonald/Whigam may've done for Merion East in 1910 and 1911. What I have a problem with is when a few people on here (and it seems like they are always the same two people) just disregard what those club's administrative records say on the subject or when we present to them what we have seen from those club records they just start parsing the hell out of the words in them or they say they make no sense at all as Tom MacWood just did about Myopia's executive committee records and Merion's executive committee records. After a while most of us just grow tired of that nonsense and that's why I see no reason to post any longer on those Merion threads.

If those two are really interested in the architectural histories of those two clubs maybe they should consider not dismissing everything from those clubs. And if they don't believe what we've said about them they should just establish a working relationship with those clubs and they could then perhaps see for themselves what others have seen and reported.

« Last Edit: August 05, 2009, 10:37:06 AM by TEPaul »

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #127 on: August 05, 2009, 09:59:25 AM »
Thanks Tom, I'll check the article tonight and at least type out what is on it if I can't manage to post. BTW how long did it take to make the crossing back in those days ?

Niall

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #128 on: August 05, 2009, 01:31:44 PM »
Once again, we have been accused of ignoring information that I have never even seen, this time "Myopia's administrative records."   If I've never seen Myopia's admimnistrative records, how could I ignore them?   So far as I know, there are no "administrative records" to ignore, and if there are "administrative records" I have no idea what they really say or mean.  

TEPaul may think he speaks for Myopia, Merion, and every other club up and down the Eastern seaboard, but as far as I know he does not.    Likewise, he may have appointed himself gatekeeper and sole arbiter of what Myopia's records say and mean, but as far as I know he is neither.  

If Myopia would like their private administrative records discussed, they should bring them forward.  Likewise, if Myopia would like to engage in this dicussion, I am sure that Ran would welcome their representative with open arms.   However, I strongly suspect that they have no intention or desire on either front.  My guess is they would rather we leave their administrative records out of our conversation.  They are after all a private club, so private that they apparently did not even want their course profile on gca.com.  

So what is going on here?   Why is TEPaul again foisting his questionable interpretations of the supposed records of a private club into the limelight here on gca.com?  Why is he pretending to speak for Myopia?    Why is he again pretending that he has special insight into exactly what happened over 100 years ago?    Why is he again making representations he refuses to back up with verifiable facts?  

Already his story is falling apart.   For months the supposed "administrative records" said that three members at Myopia laid out the first nine holes. Yet now suddenly the administrative records only gave permission for a course to be laid out.    There is big difference between giving permission to lay out a course, and acknowledging that a course had already been laid out.    But these kind of key factual distinctions are trivial to TEPaul.   He's got another legend to protect, and by God he will do it, facts be damned.   And Myopia and their desire to remain out of this be damned as well.    

This is why these "discussions" fall apart.  They are not discussions at all.  They are TEPaul making all sorts of claims but refusing to back them up with verifiable facts.   We cannot have a discussion when one side demands that we believe him even though he has no support for what he says!   That is dictate not discussion.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2009, 01:33:37 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

TEPaul

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #129 on: August 05, 2009, 02:08:18 PM »
"Once again, we have been accused of ignoring information that I have never even seen, this time "Myopia's administrative records."   If I've never seen Myopia's admimnistrative records, how could I ignore them?   So far as I know, there are no "administrative records" to ignore, and if there are "administrative records" I have no idea what they really say or mean."



Hmmm, actually a fascinating point! Let me see now-----eg how could you ignore them? Boy, that's a tough one. Let me think about that for a few weeks and get back to you.

Oh wait, I think I got it. By failing to establish a working research relationship with Myopia like you failed to do with Merion and the club (MCC) it was part of in 1910 and 1911 before trying to write an informed and informative and credible essay on that particular subject and time period of the club's architectural history? ;)

Wayne Morrison and Merion's historian and another member may not have known those administrative records had been in the attic of MCC for a century but for some damned reason he thought it might be worthwhile to go over there and ask them about it and take a look. That Wayne Morrison must be like some kind of really spooky intuitive research genius, I guess, HUH?

For some damned reason I asked about Myopia's archives when I was there last year and the year before that. Why did I do that? Well, I can't remember right now but if and when I think of it I will let you know.  

By the way, have you ever even read Myopia's one and only history book? Have you ever even seen it? Have you ever even been to Myopia Hunt Club? Do you know anything at all about Myopia?

« Last Edit: August 05, 2009, 02:13:58 PM by TEPaul »

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #130 on: August 05, 2009, 02:17:18 PM »
These discussions fall apart because of smart ass retorts, like the previous reply on this topic.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #131 on: August 05, 2009, 02:29:57 PM »
TEP
Campbell arrived in Boston on March 31, 1894 via Glasgow, Liverpool & Halifax.

Its your understanding Myopia hired the world's finest match play golfer just to carry out manual labor? By the way at the time he was laying out Myopia he was employed by The County Club. The first organized gathering on the new links at Myopia was June 18 and the second event was the 4th of July. Leeds won both. Strangely Mr. Merrill and Mr. Gardner did not compete in either event. Are we certain those two even played the game?

Campbell also laid out Essex County in 1894. Here is article from the Boston Globe July 13, 1894.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2009, 02:35:16 PM by Tom MacWood »

TEPaul

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #132 on: August 05, 2009, 02:30:10 PM »
"If Myopia would like their private administrative records discussed, they should bring them forward.  Likewise, if Myopia would like to engage in this dicussion, I am sure that Ran would welcome their representative with open arms.   However, I strongly suspect that they have no intention or desire on either front.  My guess is they would rather we leave their administrative records out of our conversation.  They are after all a private club, so private that they apparently did not even want their course profile on gca.com.  

So what is going on here?   Why is TEPaul again foisting his questionable interpretations of the supposed records of a private club into the limelight here on gca.com?  Why is he pretending to speak for Myopia?    Why is he again pretending that he has special insight into exactly what happened over 100 years ago?    Why is he again making representations he refuses to back up with verifiable facts?  

Already his story is falling apart.   For months the supposed "administrative records" said that three members at Myopia laid out the first nine holes. Yet now suddenly the administrative records only gave permission for a course to be laid out.    There is big difference between giving permission to lay out a course, and acknowledging that a course had already been laid out.    But these kind of key factual distinctions are trivial to TEPaul.   He's got another legend to protect, and by God he will do it, facts be damned.   And Myopia and their desire to remain out of this be damned as well.    

This is why these "discussions" fall apart.  They are not discussions at all.  They are TEPaul making all sorts of claims but refusing to back them up with verifiable facts.   We cannot have a discussion when one side demands that we believe him even though he has no support for what he says!   That is dictate not discussion."



No, WHAT THAT is----is just f.....ing unbelievable; just another totally adverserially nonproductive David Moriarty hysterical rant! But he's probably right about one thing and that is Myopia would probably prefer that people like MacWood and Moriarty who don't know a damn thing about Myopia's history but have become fixated by it because of some seemingly misleading or irrelevent newspaper articles that some on here seem to think contradicts the fact that the club's executive committee records say three members staked out and routed the original nine in early 1894 not think they should rewrite and revise Myopia's architectural history on here with some dumb In My Opinion piece like that one about Merion on here!

I have no problem at all with people like you who know nothing about that place babbling on endlessly on some thread trying to make it look like you do. I'm sure Myopia doesn't either as it's totally inconsequential to their actual club and architectural history!

TEPaul

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #133 on: August 05, 2009, 02:42:45 PM »
"TEP
Campbell arrived in Boston on March 31, 1894 via Glasgow, Liverpool & Halifax.

Its your understanding Myopia hired the world's finest match play golfer to carry out manual labor? By the way at the time he was laying out Myopia he was employed by The County Club. The first organized gathering on the new links at Myopia was June 18 and the second event was the 4th of July. Leeds won both."


Tom:

Why are you telling me what I just put on here this morning and what I put on here last year on this same subject? Do you actually think you are telling me something if you simply repeat on here what I already said.

It is my understanding that Appleton, Gardner and Merrill staked out the original nine hole course in March 1894 and that Willie Campbell did not, probably because he wasn't even in America at the time. But despite that you can just continue to rant on illogically that he must have done that somehow. Maybe he emailed it in to them via his Blackberry when he was still on the Carthaginian. That would be just about as logical as some of the things you try to contend on here. I'll take newspaper articles if that's all there is but in the case of Merion and Myopia that is NOT all there is and what they have contradicts your grandiose theories about the likes of a Campbell or Barker and what they did for each club.

It's OK Tom, you're a good researcher but a God awful historical analyst and there are enough people who've been telling you that about the things you've said and written that maybe it will actually sink in some day.

But the most important question has not been addressed yet----how different was that original nine from Leeds' "Long Nine" of 1898 that became part of the 1900 course.

Why don't you try to give that question a try, Tom? Take it right out of Week's book if you want and see how that goes.  ;)

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #134 on: August 05, 2009, 02:53:04 PM »
TEP
I'm sorry I thought you said this mourning you could not read the date in March.

I don't know what to tell you about the master of the hounds and his friends laying out the original nine. For whatever reason the local newspapers reported Campbell laid the course out, and Mrs. Campbell said the same thing in an interview in 1902. Maybe the newspapers and Mrs. Campbell were mistaken, and maybe The Country Club and Essex County Club were mistaken too, and he didn't lay their courses out either.

I don't have Weeks book so I won't be able to share what he says about the Long Nine in 1898.

Phil_the_Author

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #135 on: August 05, 2009, 03:11:14 PM »
A few thoughts based upon comments made. If this doesn't make sense feel very free to tell me so...

Tom Paul stated that the three members "laid out" the nine holes in March based upon what the club's administrative records state. Willie Campbell could not have done this since he only stepped off the boat on March 31st. Tom Macwood points out that newspaper accounts and statements from his wife state that Campbell "laid out" the course.

So once again understanding of the events that took place are muddied because of a simple two-word phrase.

For me, and I am assuming that Tom has seen the administrative records that give the March 1894 date, I haven't a problem at all with accepting them as the final authority over newspaper accounts of which we are interpreting their meaning. For example, isn;t it at all likely that the three club members routed the course and located tees & greens and then waited for campbell to arrive to fill in details such as bunker and other hazard placements as well as final shape and sizing of greens and fairways? And if that is the case, BOTH PARTIES would be correct in stating that they had "Laid Out" the course and the club would be quite correct in recording and crediting the three members as those who designed it.

Tom Macwood also rerasoned this way, "Its your understanding Myopia hired the world's finest match play golfer just to carry out manual labor?" Yet isn't that PRECISELY what Myopia and other clubs did? Isn't one of the main definitions of "laying out a course " in those days involve the LABOR of staking the land and locating tee & green sites and overseeing the bulding?

He may have been the finest match-platy golfer on the planet, but in their eyes that is all he was... a PROFESSIONAL golfer. That was considered pretty low class at that time...

TEPaul

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #136 on: August 05, 2009, 03:16:38 PM »
Tom:

Thanks for that clarification on the actual day of March Campbell arrived in Boston.

In that case, it would be virtually impossible that Campbell staked out the tees and greens of that original nine hole course, that the club at the time said Appleton, Gardner and Merrill did as Campbell hadn't even first arrived in America at the time.

I'm sorry you don't have Week's book so you could refer to what it says in this vein about Appleton, Merrill and Gardner and the executive committee decisions of that time as well as what it says about the actual holes of that original nine (so you could compare them to Leed's "Long Nine"). Maybe when it's convenient for you, you could go back over to Mike Hurzdan's office and look at his copy again. After Appleton, Merrill and Gardner staked out that original nine they reported to the executive committee that the course could be ready for play in three months. Members began to play the course on June 1, 1894. You do the math, and please don't tell me you don't understand the math or it doesn't make sense to you because it's not that hard to subtract three months from June 1 to see where you are on the calander.

I don't have too much doubt that Campbell very likely did do something for Myopia, only what it was isn't very clear, and it really couldn't have been staking out a routing for that original nine for the very obvious reasons that have been given above (I do know it can be a bitch sometimes when one's favorite theories get killed by basic "timelining". And I have no idea why Myopia never acknowledged Willie Campbell in Weeks history book because it most certainly did acknowlege everyone else who worked for them from the beginning of golf for them at Hamilton until 1975. I know you happen to think Willie Campbell was the greatest thing since sliced bread but I guess you will just have to get used to the fact that perhaps Myopia may not have thought that for whatever the reason.

Now, for my part I just don't see what there is left to discuss. If you get the history book or go to Myopia to see it and analyze it and the course's history maybe we could pick the discussion up again at that time.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2009, 03:24:27 PM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #137 on: August 05, 2009, 03:34:28 PM »
"Tom Paul stated that the three members "laid out" the nine holes in March based upon what the club's administrative records state."


Phil:

Sometimes on this website one needs to be very careful with the words they used because they get constantly misquoted or get their meaning totally misconstrued.

I have tried to be very very careful NOT to say that Myopia said that those three members "laid out" that original nine hole course because I can't see the club or its records ever used that term. I think what they said those three members did in the early spring is to stake out tees and greens----in other words to stake on the ground the basic routing for that original nine. I know some on here seem to think that's some kind of golf architectural rocket science but it really isn't since I've done it myself and I would have to guess that R.M Appleton did it himself on his own six hole golf course on his 1,000 acre estate nearby that preceded the Myopia nine by over a year! I do not believe they even used bunkers at that time as they also said their hazard features were only high pasture grass rough and existing roads and stone walls and that the fairways were pasture grass mowed by penned sheep and the greens were sodded grass mowed by penned sheep. When they were not mowing grass on the penned sections of the course the sheep were kept in a pen next to the tennis court----which by the way was one of only seven court tennis courts in America and it is still there today but used as part of the maintenance area.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2009, 03:44:20 PM by TEPaul »

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #138 on: August 05, 2009, 03:37:32 PM »
Phil
I think there is one important factor missing from your analysis. The articles I mentioned are posted on this thread. We have not seen the administrative records, and I don't believe we will ever see the administrative records. TEP is referring to what Edward Weeks wrote in his history book.

TEP
You quoted from the book on a previous thread:

"It was fortunate that the man who suggested golf at Myopia was the newly elected Master of Fox Hounds, R.M. Appleton. “Bud” Appleton was the indispensable go-between, so popular he could placate the Hunt and practical enough not to minimize the difficulties. When the snows melted in the spring of 1894, Appleton, with two fellow members, “Squire” Merrill and A.P. Gardner, footed it over the Club acres, spotting the tees and pacing off the distance to provisional greens, probably marking them with pegs.

Appleton and his partners reported to the executive committee that nine holes could be ready for play in three months, and the speed with which their recommendation was followed is evident in this terse entry in the Club records by Secretary S. Dacre Bush:

         'At a meeting of the Executive Committee March 1894 it was decided to build a golflinks on the Myopia grounds.'

Accordingly the ground was examined, and in opposition from a number of members because the ground was so rough, nine greens were sodded and cut, and play began June 1st, 1894. Members and associates soon began to show much interest in the game, and the first tournament was held June 18th , 1894. About twenty five entries. Won by Herbert Leeds of Boston who was scratch. Score first round 58; second round 54; Total 112. The second tournament held on July 4th , 1894. About twenty entries. Won by Herbert Leeds, scratch 52-61-113.'”

How long did it typically take to lay out a course in 1894?

Phil_the_Author

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #139 on: August 05, 2009, 03:49:57 PM »
Tom,

You mentioned, "Phil, I think there is one important factor missing from your analysis. The articles I mentioned are posted on this thread. We have not seen the administrative records, and I don't believe we will ever see the administrative records. TEP is referring to what Edward Weeks wrote in his history book..."

That is true, but then again the articles themselves are just as much "hearsay" as the information in Weeks' book. For example, none of us heard Mrs. Campbell say that her husband "laid out" Myopia yet that is what one of the articles you refer to state. If we are to accept as true what she said then we also must accept that Weeks saw the facts he recorded in his book from the administrative records.

That we, or anyone, don't get to see actual documents neither argues against their existence nor does it mean that the proper prior use of them in publication should be ignored. Let me give you an example. In both my Tilly essay on gac.com and in my Tilly biography I refer to medical records from the Mayo Clinic that state that tilly hadn't had a drink of alcohol after a doctor's visit there in 1927. I have an actual photocopy of them, but due to constraints put upon me by those who furnished me with them I am only allowed to refer and quote from them and not allowed to display or publish them. Does that mean that what i wrote should be ignored by some future historian doing independent Tillinghast research? Does it mean that some on GCA.com should refuse to accept either my conclusion about Tilly's use of alcohol or my use of these records because they don't have access to them?

It is easy for me to say they would be wrong to do so. Looking back from100 years to the past isn't so easy yet is also no less valid in doing so...

TEPaul

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #140 on: August 05, 2009, 04:07:24 PM »
"Phil
I think there is one important factor missing from your analysis. The articles I mentioned are posted on this thread. We have not seen the administrative records, and I don't believe we will ever see the administrative records. TEP is referring to what Edward Weeks wrote in his history book."


Tom:

If you never go to Myopia of course you will never see those administrative records. I quoted from Weeks' book because I've had it in my office here for a couple of years. I did not copy those administrative records Weeks referred to in his book and so I can't sit here in Philadelphia and quote from them and unfortunately I found when I began with Myopia a couple of years ago that the all important so-called Leeds scrapbook that Weeks had and sometimes referred to when he and some other Myopia members researched the club history over about 25 years and Weeks then wrote the book in 1975 has been lost now. The club can't find it and they sure have looked. People have looked with the Weeks family and elsewhere and it has not turned up. So that I have never actually read it or seen it, and I feel that is a real hole in actual physical evidence today that Weeks actually had and sometimes referred to in his book but none of us will proabably ever see it again. To me that isn't much different than those sketches and drawings that Wilson brought home from abroad and Macdonald did too for NGLA or even that actual plan for Merion East that the minutes said was actually attached to the Wilson report that Lesley gave on 4/19/1911. All gone now---gone with the wind and we may never see any of them again. On the other hand, one never knows how or when things may turn up.

To me it's a damn shame because I have a feeling that Leeds scrapbook might have been a true treasure trove of architectural infomation about Myopia through the years as well as Leeds trips abroad.

Week's Myopia history book is only 150 pages and the majority of it is about hunting and polo and tennis not golf. For that reason there was probably no good reason that Weeks and the others felt it should be put in that single Myopia history book since a lot of it was probably just a ton of architectural background information which of course people like us would be totally fascinated by but not a general membership like Myopia's in 1975 that was still heavily into other sports beside golf. Actually, the members sometimes refer to that era around 1975 as some real sleepy years with the golf course and they definitely weren't kidding about that!

If you can't understand that, Tom MacWood, and you start to criticize it as you have others for things like sins of ommission I really don't think you are being either fair or realistic to a club like that one and apparently many others. This is just one of many reasons over the years I personally feel it is really hard to have an intelligent discussion with you about some of these golf courses. It's almost like you don't even care to consider why they do the things they do and it's almost like you just want to criticize them for not doing what YOU think is important. It's almost like you don't really want to understand them.

I want to understand them and the numerous clubs like them and after all these years I think I do and I think it is immeasurably important to understand them. I certainly do know they think it is immeasurably important if people like me and you understand them or try very hard to.

For this single reason alone I so much hate to admit it but I have to say it----it has really disappointed me about Golfclubatlas.com and SOME of the people on it. I know it has surely disappointed Wayne Morrison too. Because we have relationships with these clubs and we have many friends in many of them we have been accused on here of so many things that just don't seem right. Of hiding things, or misquoting and distorting things, or doctoring documents of not being able to be objective about the things we know that others may not.

To me that really sucks on here, and it will drive all of us away from here who are close to these golf clubs and their courses. Everyone on here seems to understand that one needs to treat these clubs and their members and their ethos with respect if they go play those courses. Most on here are actually fanatical on that point. To me I just don't see why it needs to be any different than that on here when we discuss them too.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2009, 04:27:45 PM by TEPaul »

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #141 on: August 05, 2009, 05:05:31 PM »
For 3 pages this thread was progressing well and then TEP arrives with his usual attempt to make the thread all about him. Ennui descends on the group.

I’ve just counted there are 16 courses named in the titles of threads on Page one of the Discussion Group. Plus there's another one discussing the top 50 modern courses.  Don't have to hang around here for long to figure out who started the thread where Tom Paul, of all  people, is lecturing others on how to behave.  Haven't checked all the other threads but it's a sure bet he's not giving anyone else the benefit of his wisdom.  This is a discussion group and when the subject of allowing the club first sight of research or opinions is discussed everyone but you and Wayne rubbish the very idea. It’s a matter about which you’ve shown no consistency in your own behaviour. So we know what you’re really trying to do and it’s not to increase the groups knowledge of GCA and its history.  Give it rest, it's tired and you've become the club bore.


Has anyone else anything to add to what was a fantastic and illuminating thread?
Let's make GCA grate again!

TEPaul

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #142 on: August 05, 2009, 05:31:15 PM »
"Has anyone else anything to add to what was a fantastic and illuminating thread?"


Not me and I doubt I have any more to add on this website. Myopia and its architectural history is a great subject particularly as it probably is the FIRST good golf architecture in America. It's a good subject to discuss intelligently but apparently not with people on here if they're anything like Tony Muldoon. Babble on guys, you sure don't need me.  ;)
« Last Edit: August 05, 2009, 05:32:55 PM by TEPaul »

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #143 on: August 05, 2009, 05:36:51 PM »
Phil
Hearsay? So in your mind three contemporaneous reports from three different sources are the equivalent to hearsay or rumor? That is an interesting perspective. Since you never spoke directly to Tilly I assume you consider the majority of your book to be hearsay.

You can accept Mr. Weeks' account, but I'm certainly not. He told us what the official record said:

'At a meeting of the Executive Committee March 1894 it was decided to build a golflinks on the Myopia grounds.'

I assume the quote is accurate. However there is a large gap between that 'terse' statement and the tale Mr. Weeks tells us, which frankly makes no sense. Weeks didn't even know Willie Campbell was the pro at Myopia Hunt Club (a fact widely reported). IMO that reflects directly upon the thoroughness of his research, and based on that I would not accept anything he tells us with out confirming it.  

Typically how long did it take to layout a course in 1894?
« Last Edit: August 05, 2009, 05:39:22 PM by Tom MacWood »

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #144 on: August 05, 2009, 05:43:38 PM »
"Phil
I think there is one important factor missing from your analysis. The articles I mentioned are posted on this thread. We have not seen the administrative records, and I don't believe we will ever see the administrative records. TEP is referring to what Edward Weeks wrote in his history book."


Tom:

If you never go to Myopia of course you will never see those administrative records. I quoted from Weeks' book because I've had it in my office here for a couple of years. I did not copy those administrative records Weeks referred to in his book and so I can't sit here in Philadelphia and quote from them and unfortunately I found when I began with Myopia a couple of years ago that the all important so-called Leeds scrapbook that Weeks had and sometimes referred to when he and some other Myopia members researched the club history over about 25 years and Weeks then wrote the book in 1975 has been lost now. The club can't find it and they sure have looked. People have looked with the Weeks family and elsewhere and it has not turned up. So that I have never actually read it or seen it, and I feel that is a real hole in actual physical evidence today that Weeks actually had and sometimes referred to in his book but none of us will proabably ever see it again. To me that isn't much different than those sketches and drawings that Wilson brought home from abroad and Macdonald did too for NGLA or even that actual plan for Merion East that the minutes said was actually attached to the Wilson report that Lesley gave on 4/19/1911. All gone now---gone with the wind and we may never see any of them again. On the other hand, one never knows how or when things may turn up.

To me it's a damn shame because I have a feeling that Leeds scrapbook might have been a true treasure trove of architectural infomation about Myopia through the years as well as Leeds trips abroad.

Week's Myopia history book is only 150 pages and the majority of it is about hunting and polo and tennis not golf. For that reason there was probably no good reason that Weeks and the others felt it should be put in that single Myopia history book since a lot of it was probably just a ton of architectural background information which of course people like us would be totally fascinated by but not a general membership like Myopia's in 1975 that was still heavily into other sports beside golf. Actually, the members sometimes refer to that era around 1975 as some real sleepy years with the golf course and they definitely weren't kidding about that!

If you can't understand that, Tom MacWood, and you start to criticize it as you have others for things like sins of ommission I really don't think you are being either fair or realistic to a club like that one and apparently many others. This is just one of many reasons over the years I personally feel it is really hard to have an intelligent discussion with you about some of these golf courses. It's almost like you don't even care to consider why they do the things they do and it's almost like you just want to criticize them for not doing what YOU think is important. It's almost like you don't really want to understand them.

I want to understand them and the numerous clubs like them and after all these years I think I do and I think it is immeasurably important to understand them. I certainly do know they think it is immeasurably important if people like me and you understand them or try very hard to.

For this single reason alone I so much hate to admit it but I have to say it----it has really disappointed me about Golfclubatlas.com and SOME of the people on it. I know it has surely disappointed Wayne Morrison too. Because we have relationships with these clubs and we have many friends in many of them we have been accused on here of so many things that just don't seem right. Of hiding things, or misquoting and distorting things, or doctoring documents of not being able to be objective about the things we know that others may not.

To me that really sucks on here, and it will drive all of us away from here who are close to these golf clubs and their courses. Everyone on here seems to understand that one needs to treat these clubs and their members and their ethos with respect if they go play those courses. Most on here are actually fanatical on that point. To me I just don't see why it needs to be any different than that on here when we discuss them too.

TEP
According to Weeks this is what the administrative records said about the subject:

'At a meeting of the Executive Committee March 1894 it was decided to build a golflinks on the Myopia grounds.'

There is no mention of who was to build the links, nor when they planned to begin construction.

How long did it typically take to build a golf course in 1894?

TEPaul

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #145 on: August 05, 2009, 05:45:04 PM »
I'll tell you one thing, Tom, you can accept newspaper articles as more credible than a club's contemporaneous executive committee meeting minutes until the cows come home and I'm sure you will but I never will, not ever. Neither will any of these clubs and neither will any other credible historian. But why wouldn't you look at it that way, after all that's about all you've ever had anyway----eg NEWSPAPER ARTICLES?!
« Last Edit: August 05, 2009, 05:56:23 PM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #146 on: August 05, 2009, 05:55:18 PM »
"There is no mention of who was to build the links, nor when they planned to begin construction.

How long did it typically take to build a golf course in 1894?"


Tom:

That's right. No mention of that in the Weeks book and no mention of it in the executive committee records (The Run Book). Isn't that just really odd or do you think it may've had something to do with the way golf and architecture was in America in the early 1890s? ;)

As Weeks mentioned there were only a few courses in Boston in the early 1890s and preceeding Myopia's 1894 original nine and probably the majority of them were on private estates as Weeks mentioned in the Myopia history book, including Appleton's massive estate. By the way Prides Crossing was first done in 1893. You say that was Willie Campbell too? That's a pretty neat trick don't you think since Campbell would not even first arrive in America for another year?

How long did it take to built something like that original Myopia nine? Why don't you try to get your hands on Weeks' book and you can read all about how it was built---or frankly wasn't built for people who actually understand golf architectural history of that super-early time in America. Or better yet go to Myopia and look at their records.

You actually call yourself and golf architectural historian? That is what sure makes no sense at all to me.  
« Last Edit: August 05, 2009, 05:58:00 PM by TEPaul »

Phil_the_Author

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #147 on: August 05, 2009, 06:18:11 PM »
Tom,

Consider your response. "Phil, Hearsay? So in your mind three contemporaneous reports from three different sources are the equivalent to hearsay or rumor? That is an interesting perspective. Since you never spoke directly to Tilly I assume you consider the majority of your book to be hearsay..."

Please show me anything in those three articles about Campbell having "laid out" the courses that is the result of either FIRST-HAND OBSERVATION or DIRECT QUOTE FROM VERIFIABLE DOCUMENTS. There aren't any. CONTEMPORARY as they may be, they are HEARSAY. That DOESN'T mean that they are incorrect and if you look at exactly what i wrote following it as to what it may mean, I stated that from the writers perspective both the three Myopia members & Campbell could correctly be referred to as having "laid out" the course.

You have demanded that "proofs" or "facts" presented be both verifiable and not hearsy, yet the articles shown are just reports repeated by a newspaper columnist. Not a single time did he state that Campbell TOLD me he "laid out" the course or even quote him. He did quote "Mrs. Campbell" but again that was hearsay rather than documented fact.

Again, I have no doubt that Campbell was invovled.

As far as much of what I wrote about Tilly being hearsay accounts, actually almost the entire book is based upon Tilly's OWN WORDS or those that personally witnessed the events. There is very little that is based upokn "reports"...

 

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #148 on: August 05, 2009, 08:30:10 PM »
This is all pretty comical.   TEPaul seems to be confused between access, on the one hand, and quality research and analysis, on the other.  As has always been the case, his forte is the former.     And while we keep hearing about these "administrative records" I doubt there is anything more to them that what Weeks put in the book:

'At a meeting of the Executive Committee March 1894 it was decided to build a golflinks on the Myopia grounds.'

TEPaul reads this as meaning that the course was staked out in March 1994, but obvously that is not a foregone conclusion.   As for the rest of the Weeks description, it sure reads like storytelling to me.   These club histories are after all vanity pieces -- a celebration of oneself -- so it would be surprising if there wasn't some poetic license added here or there for the sake of making a more compelling story out of it.   I don't doubt that in March 1894 it was decided to build a golflinks on the Myopia roungs.    One can assume the source of that information was the "administrative records" but I cannot imagine the rest of the description would be the type of thing that would be contained within the administrative record.   In fact, TEPaul has all but admitted that the rest of the Weeks' story is not traceable to the administrative record.   

In short, the conclusion that TEPaul draws does not appear to be based on any actual source material other than the above snippet, apparently from an administrative record, via Weeks' book.    But the snippet on its face is entirely consistent with the THREE reports that Campbell laid out the course.     Myopia decided to build a course in March 1894.  Willie Campbell arrived on the scene soon after and laid out the course between his arrival and when the course was ready for play in June, 1894.   

Hardly worth arguing about, given that there is nothing in the FACTUAL record that contradicts the three accounts of Campbell designing the course!    At least nothing that has been brought forward here, and that is all any of us can go on.

___________________________________________

Phillip, you have a strange understanding of what  is hearsay and what isn't.  Let me put it this way . . . unless you have a time machine where you can bring Tillinghast in so we can question him under oath, then his words are hearsay as well.    While some hearsay might be considered more reliable than others, at the very least if a scholar is to be taken seriously then his peers must have access the source material so they decide for themselves whether or not the documents are reliable and whether or not the analysis makes sense.   So with your Tillinghast example, if we doubt you we can read Tillinghast's writings ourselves and decide for ourselves.   If you relied solely on super-secret information that no one else could see, then you might find that others did not take your work seriously.   

As for your reliance on unproduced medical records in your book, if your conclusions from these records were controversial or disputed then another scholar would and should demand to examine them for himself.  If you refused to allow the scholar to at least review them, then you ought to expect that the scholar would not accept your findings as sound, and others shouldn't either.  This would be especially so if ALL of your source material was unavailable for verification, or if you had a long history of mistakes (innocent or not) when presenting source material.   

In short Phillip, your research and analysis is in no way comparable to what TEPaul is trying to pull here.    He isn't even telling us what the supposed "adminsitrative records" say.  He is insisting that the supposed records prove that his version of the story is correct but won't even let us decide that four ourselves.   He is demanding that we take his word for the ultimate question at issue! That is not historical research and analysis.   
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #149 on: August 05, 2009, 09:17:18 PM »
TEP
You're right. The first golf course at Prides Crossing was laid out in 1893. It was a group effort being built over five estates - WB Thomas's being one of them. Thomas was the man who brought Campbell to the States. The golf course proved to be so popular it was expanded in 1894-95 - this according to 'Golf in America' (1895) by James P. Lee.

I didn't ask you how long it took to build Myopia, I asked how long it took to build a typical course in 1894.

Phil
If you buy Weeks story without any confirmation I've got some land in NJ I think you would be interested in.