Playing conditions at Hidden Creek. Why don't others get it ?

[JESII]

Adam,

Sorry, but I disagree about "the lazy American mindset" but lets move on to Wildhorse.

I haven't been there and do not know the ownership structure at all but am curious about the change in playability/presentation and profitability.

How long has the course been open?

How were the course playing conditions advertised? Why would people go there initially?

Were the intended playing conditions viewed by the ownership as a value from the beginning? Did they buy into the idea of firm and fast? If so, how did they communicate that to customers?

[Eric_Terhorst]

Sully, Sadly American influence has spread, even to the Auld Sod. But, you are right, it is human nature that has ruined the proper playing surfaces. It's just my observation that it all stems from the lazy American mindset. Please don't tell me you want to argue about that?

Adam, I don't want to argue, but I am hesitant to lay unfortunate trends in golf course design and maintenance at the feet of "lazy" Americans or the "me" generation.  If "human nature" has ruined most golf courses in America, then by definition human members of  the "me" generation  in the UK would have ruined more of their courses--yet places like Brora survive and thrive.  

American cultural influence spreads, but there is still a market for niche movies, music, golf courses, etc.  We who enjoy F&F need to seek out and support those public courses that enable us to enjoy such conditions.  F&F believers who belong to private clubs need to try to exert their influence through the usual channels, as suggested above.  When that fails, join a club like Ballyneal that celebrates what you're looking for.  

As to why don't others "get it", besides simple differences in preferences, don't forget many of us Americans grew up watching Jack Nicklaus and his successors hit towering iron shots that stopped on a dime and have only played courses designed around that type of game--many Americans have never experienced or sought out links golf.  I read the other day that Dornoch gets 12,000 visitors in a typical summer--even if they are all Americans, that's a tiny segment of the golfing population.  You and I may believe others are missing out but that doesn't necessarily make them "lazy."  

[Bill Brightly]

Jonathan,

You are 29. Iis your dad a full member? Do you have a group of buddies your age who agree with you? If yes, get them to work on their fathers. Tell them to explain to their fathers why fast and firm is better. Think about it: old guys LOVE the idea of their drives rolling 20 more yards... Show them articles about top-ranked courses that play F & F, etc. Sell it!

There is a always a hidden coalition in every club: the young low handicap golfers (without votes) and their dads (with votes and contacts on the board)...IMO, dads will do almost anything for their golfing sons...

20 years ago no one wanted trees cut down. Then a few clubs started doing it and the tree huggers fought like hell but they lost. Now there are so many clubs removing stupid trees and the tree huggers have all but given up. I see no reason why fast and firm can't follow the same path to success.

[jonathan_becker]

Bill,

I love your optimism  . It's gonna take some work, but yes, I have some buds my age that play, and all of their fathers are full members (My dad just dropped last month because he doesn't play anymore.  So, no help from him!)

I think you just gave me a new project to work on!

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Doesn't the sandy soil at Hidden Creek help facilitate fast and firm conditions?

Can a clay based soil do the job?

[JESII]

Steve,

I would bet Huntingdon Valley is clay based and I'd put it up against Hidden Creek in this category.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Jim,

HV may be one of the few,if not only, non sandy soil courses in the area to be fast and firm. I haven't played there in years but I'm looking forward to a visit in the fall.

[Kyle Harris]

*takes a deep breath and looks at the weather in May and June*

*takes another deep breath*

No, it's not worth it.

Anyone care to discuss cost? How much do we think the average golfer is willing to pay for such conditions?

[JESII]

I wouldn't have a clue of how to put a number on it, but shouldn't it be less expensive than lush and green?

[Kyle Harris]

I wouldn't have a clue of how to put a number on it, but shouldn't it be less expensive than lush and green?

That depends on the approach to achieving firm conditions.

Green and firm/fast exists too.

One thing I'd like to know is how much disease pressure Hidden Creek has been under relative to years past. It's been an odd summer, a bit cooler than usual.

[JESII]

Kyle,

Pat is clearly talking about discoloration...

Would off-color firm and fast potentially be more expensive than lush and green?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jim & Kyle,

You guys are too young to remember it, but, just about every course used to be fast and firm in the summer before automated irrigation systems were installed.

Courses used to "brown out" every summer.

Usually, water costs were minimal as were chemical costs.

Kyle,

Why are you asserting that it costs more to allow a golf course to go to fast and firm, Mother Nature permitting ?

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle,

Pat is clearly talking about discoloration...

Would off-color firm and fast potentially be more expensive than lush and green?

Invoking Ceterus Parabus, no. As you well know.

I think there is a bit of misconception that is bred from the golfer's viewpoint as to how one GETS to firm and fast. Take Huntingdon Valley today, for example. We're green, healthy and firmish and fastish. Certainly not as firm and fast as we were two weeks ago for the Lynnewood, however. The weather has been a constant presence and hinderance.

In fact, I'd say we're almost TOO healthy. It becomes tough to keep up with the grass growth and dew, for example. Both of these things hamper firm and fast conditions and require labor and machine costs to mitigate.

Therein lies my point. The golfer's view (4-5 hours of the golf course) and the superintendent's view (8+ hours), most of which are before the bulk of the golfer's view, are two completely different things.

We also must consider that June had something like 20 days of measurable rain all during the course of cooler than average temperatures. It's only been in the past week that the temperature and humidity have conspired to put golf courses in the area under considerable disease pressure. Simply put, it's been relatively easy to stay on top of things agronomic so far, this summer.

Absent a more holistic approach to golf maintenance - one that accepts that a season/month/time-period-longer-than-a-day here and there may be "less than ideal" (whatever that means) - it's hard for me to really consider the firm/fast/brown approach as a categorical solution.

I wonder how many green committees/supers are willing to accept areas of the golf course that are ridden with disease. When I see pictures of golf courses in the British Isles, for example, I see plenty of fairway ring, dollar spot and other fungi/insect damage that I know few would tolerate here in the States.

Does drier generally provide most disease tolerance? Yes, until the weather ceases cooperating. Wet, hot and humid conditions will always breed disease - it's whether or not the plant is capable of mitigating itself and how much the super needs to help it along that will change the way the course "plays" to the golfer.

 

[JESII]

Pat,

Would you agree that irrigation systems have been a beneficial development for golf course conditioning? Or is it your contention that this "browning out" was universally better than todays conditions? Wasn't everything black and white when you were my age?

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle,

Why are you asserting that it costs more to allow a golf course to go to fast and firm, Mother Nature permitting ?

I'm not asserting this as categorical.

I'd like to find a better example then Hidden Creek, though. Something tells me there is more than one comma in their golf course maintenance budget.

Maybe setting the goal of bringing golf course budgets under, or just at, $1million would lead to more firm/fast/brown acceptance.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

Would you agree that irrigation systems have been a beneficial development for golf course conditioning?

Jim, while irrigation systems have been beneficial I think they've been misused.

Water restrictions would go a long way toward returning courses to F&F conditions

Or is it your contention that this "browning out" was universally better than todays conditions?

Given the choice between wet/lush, spongey, green conditions and dry, firm, brownish/yellowish/greenish conditions, I'll take the latter every time.

Wasn't everything black and white when you were my age?

There was no black and white when I was your age, since there was no TV.  We could only listen to the radio.
It's unfortunate that your lack of experience in this area has deprived you of playing when golf courses were "hot".
When firm/fast fairways hastened a mishit shot into the waiting bunkers.

The turf conditions a Hidden Creek were close to ideal.
Were there browned out areas, sure, but so what, THE important criterion is the QUALITY of the playing surface, NOT the COLOR of the playing surface.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Kyle,

Why are you asserting that it costs more to allow a golf course to go to fast and firm, Mother Nature permitting ?

I'm not asserting this as categorical.

I'd like to find a better example then Hidden Creek, though.

I don't know that you'll find a better example than Hidden Creek.
In what context are you looking for a "better example" ?

I can only report on the golf courses that I've played on this year.

Something tells me there is more than one comma in their golf course maintenance budget.
 
There's not a "name" golf course I know of in the Metropolitan NY area that has a Green Budget below a million dollars, inclusive of payroll, benefits, and the myriad of line items associated with Green Budgets.  I'll make the same statement relative to courses in Southeastern Florida.

Maybe setting the goal of bringing golf course budgets under, or just at, $1million would lead to more firm/fast/brown acceptance.
I wouldn't be surprised if the economy fulfills that prophecy.
However, I'm not so sure that all superintendents know how or can transition their course to F&F so quickly.
It's not just a matter of turning off the water.
Although, if ever there was a spring and summer to turn off the water, this was it.

It's FAR, FAR, FAR more fun to play a "hot" golf course than it is to play a "spongey" golf course.

[Kyle Harris]

Pat,

You're dead-on right about everything in your latest post to me. I'd like to know how the number changes when things like Clubhouse grounds maintenance are taken out.

I can tell you that there are places like Jeffersonville in PA, which are perhaps a bit rough around the edges, but remain so playable because those in charge are dedicated to providing a product that looks as though it is maintained with twice the cost it actually is.

I'd really like to know the superintendents that are able to get $1.10 out of $1.00 in terms of firm/fast/brown and learn from them. While there is no doubt that places like Hidden Creek are managed by talented people with a lot to offer, who is going to turn down a healthy budget and the opportunity to be certain of providing the best possible course for their members?

[Mike_Cirba]

Pat,

While I agree that attitude and intent has much to do with what you're describing at Hidden Creek in terms of ideal playing conditions, don't they also have a natural advantage with a largely sand-based soil to drain from?

I don't mean this in any derogatory way, so please don't take it as such.   I only mean that there may well be times when HC can get firm and fast where slower draining courses 40 miles to the north and west might still be sopping.

It's one of the reasons that south Jersey has historically been the "winter and spring" golf destination for Philadelphians, starting with Atlantic City CC, then Seaview, then Pine Valley, and so on.   While those courses drain well, the clay-based courses in the suburbs around Philly do not.

[Adam Clayman]

Kyle K,  Without repeated efforts, all the "Me'ers" remember is how the green won't hold their shots.

Eric, Sully, Lazy thinking in terms of golf shots, is what I meant. Have you ever heard someone bitch about the wind? Or, How they hate it? Another example of where "they" want a controlled environment under predictable conditions. F&F with wind, and what you have is a story that requires a heightened awareness level and careful analysis to score well.  In other words, more thought.

Adam,

Sorry, but I disagree about "the lazy American mindset" but lets move on to Wildhorse.

I haven't been there and do not know the ownership structure at all but am curious about the change in playability/presentation and profitability.

How long has the course been open?

How were the course playing conditions advertised? Why would people go there initially?

Were the intended playing conditions viewed by the ownership as a value from the beginning? Did they buy into the idea of firm and fast? If so, how did they communicate that to customers?

The course is going on it's 10th or 11th year, I think?

I'm not sure they advertised their conditions.
No, the operators of the corp. did not value the design or it's meld. And they certainly did not communicate it to their customers. They only listened to the lowest common denominator. The guy who couldn't figure out how far to hit it, and with what trajectory.
 The happy customers never bitched and the course sky rocketed on the GW Best Modern list with those F&F conditions.

Please understand that the course still has the ability to play fast and firm, just not humming, the way it did in years past. Josh Mahar does a fantastic job working harder than most because he does a lot of the work himself. Top dressing every two weeks the greens are always perfect. An i.e. of where they let the original intent slide is with the fescue green collars. I can recall Dick Daley when he introduced this site to that course specifically saying the added cost of maintaining those collars was a given going in. They are afterall integral to the design and intent. That extra care has lapsed and I doubt it was Josh's decision. So, basically, in the vernacular of Tommy Naccers "those guys (corp. heads) don't know shit".

Sully, You really should come out for a visit. WH is one of the best values in the country even if it is a little slower n softer than in days gone by. But I can assure you will see, just down the road a piece, there's a heaven that gets down with brown.  

[Dan Herrmann]

Mike - you beat me to the punch.

My course got 3.75" of rain two nights ago, and it drained well.  But there's no way a course without sand-based turf can compete with a place like Hidden Creek.

[Mark_Fine]

I've not read all the posts here so this might have already been mentioned but if you want to play firm and fast (which most of us like to play), go play your local muni and you'll get all the firm and fast you want.  What I find is that muni golfers are the often the ones that love the rare opportunity to go play that exclusive private course as it is then that they get to see their shots back up on the green, etc.  Most golfers experience firm and fast everyday (weather permiting) because most don't play where the grounds budgets are seven figures.

[Dan Herrmann]

Mark - boy, oh boy are you correct on that one.

[Chris Tritabaugh]

As a Superintendent I can tell you that there are tons of reasons more courses don't go fast and firm. Without a doubt I think the biggest reason is the reaction of the membership and the difficulty or effort associated with educating and communicating the virtues of fast and firm. Even with proper educating and communicating you will still, more than likely, have a large portion of the membership who say, "I don't care, I just want a good golf course." The irony in this of course is that usually the conditions they desire result in a beautiful park but not such a good golf course.

At Northland we have had success in bringing about fast and firm conditions and despite lots and lots of education and communication we still have a lot of members who don't like it. Well let me correct that. They love that the course is in great condition early in the spring and right up to the course closing but they don't like that some of the course gets brown during the summer. We, meaning myself, my staff, the Green Committee, and BOD have no intention of changing direction but the reaction of the membership is the biggest obstacle to fast, firm and brownish.

[Sean Remington (SBR)]

  Maybe I should stop assuming that this group of people are umong the most golf course intellegent.  This thread starts with an observation about a course that most of us really like and it quickly turns into a SLAM on any Superintendent that has wet fairways. Here in NW Philly  I've had 6.5" of rain in July alone.  I have NEVER used LESS irrigation water than I have in 2009 so far.  I do not have $40,000 - 60,000 dollars to burry my golf course in sand every year.  OF COURSE the soil and other circumstances dictate to most of us.  I can only deal with so much rain.

   The last time I played Hidden Creek I noticed that the soil was SAND.  I also seemed that they had one of the BEST GCA design and build a course where the ball should bounse and roll.  They have a great team in place that embrasses this philosophy and they should be applauded for it.  But don't turn around and use the success story  at HC to beat up Superintendents not so fortunate to be in this possition.  Please don't compare Hidden Creek to your average inland course  - not right now.  Not when I am not wattering and I can't get the course dried out.