What makes a fine uphill hole ?

[Lyne Morrison]

On the routing thread Adrian Stiff made a good point “It is a great skill to get up the hills in a way that the golfer does not know he has done it.”

What elements or characteristics might be considered necessary to allow the personality of, for example, an opening, uphill par 4 to shine - to rise above the topo so to speak and engage the golfer ?

What features are required to produce a fine uphill hole ?  And which golf courses display these characteristics well ?

Cheers - Lyne

[Anthony Gray]

  This is a good topic on architecture. I am looking foward to the ones that complain about OT threads to give their insight.

  Anthony

[Dan Herrmann]

Lyne,
I can tell you that I think Flynn is THE MASTER of the uphill hole.

[Dan_Callahan]

It's funny, but off the top of my head I can't think of many (any?) uphill opening par 4s. I can think of a few with downhill tee shots that have uphill 2nds, but not anything that is a steady climb from tee to green.

[Sean_A]

Some of the better uphill holes I recall are those which don't seem terribly uphill.  For instance, ones where the tee is high above the fairway, but the hole still climbs. 
.
I would also that that better uphill holes finish at an unusual feature - like a raised bowl or into the pit of a mini canyon. 

I also think that uphill holes are a great place to slap in those major cross bunkers which menace the second shot if the drive isn't a good one.  It gives the archie a chance to really put on view a visually menacing bunker from the tee, but it isn't a worry for those who hit a solid drive.

I also like how Ross often went up hill with the 3 knob hole.  Hitting from a high spot to landing area which is high to a green which is high.  This holes interest me because one has to decide if can carry the 2nd knob to the flat of settle for laying back on top of the 2nd knob to avoid the dreaded downhill to an uphill approach. 

Ciao

[Kalen Braley]

Its been mentioned before but the 1st at Tilden Park in Berkeley, CA very much fits in this category.  Its a ballbuster uphill par 4 that measures over 400 yards...I suppose if it was a par 5, its perception may change, but its almost a guaranteed bogey right out of the gate.  Its another good example of a half par hole.  I'm not sure how "fine" the hole is but almost no one who plays it forgets it!!   

[Jim_Kennedy]

Lyne,
Our first is uphill, I like:

The first half of the hole is flat on the left side and a roller coaster of humps on the right. Longer hitters aim their tee shot up the right side because the appoach is better from there, but shorter hitters favoring the flat left side will find a turbo boost that leaves them with a  fairly level lie in a 'hollow'.
 The approach is much steeper than the tee shot, about one, maybe one and a half clubs more than the yardage would indicate. The uphill terrain slopes from left to right and will feed a running shot on to the green from the left, similar to a reverse 'Redan'. The green has a wide run-up area and two tiers, a large one in front and a smaller, higher one to the rear. It's protected by a deep bunker on the left and a fall-off of 12' on the right.

It's a 400+ yard 'bear' that gives every level of player a chance.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Here's another question to add in to the mix: Do you the golfer prefer to do your legwork walking uphill on a golf hole?... or do you prefer to have the odd short steep climb green to tee with a resulting flat hole?

First thing that makes a good uphill hole is not having too many of them on the same course... I know a couple of badly routed courses (in my opinion) that fail because they go for the dramatic downhill elevation changes and drop-shots. In doing this on 2 or 3 holes, they are left with 15 or 16 that feel uphill.

I think visibility is key to a good uphill hole... I also think that it is preferable to have changes in slope throughout the hole (i.e. a flat part and a steeper part rather than the same incline that wears on the legs)...

Needless to say choice is needed (anything to take the mind away from the slope) and although we all know par doesn't matter, the majority of golfers do take notice of it and will feel cheated if their 480 yard par 4 also has a 30 yard elevation change to the worse...

Those are just some of my first thoughts

[Ross Tuddenham]

I would say a short par four or five where the shot to the green is a short approach with a wedge.

If one of the sides of the green falls away sharply down the hill then this may make it more suitable for a reachable par five.  This way there is an element of risk reward offered for the second shot as it may end up down the side of a hill if it misses the green.

The area in front of the green will most likely rise steeply so it would not be possible to play a run up shot.  This is why I think a short approach would be better suited as a long iron, which may have difficulty holding to a green that is raised. 

The first at my course is a short uphill par four that I know for sure could not take long irons at the green.  On occasions a well hit wedge can end up through the back.

On another course I play there is a severely uphill par four of around 312 yards with an almost 900 dogleg to the right.  The dog leg raps around a clump of trees on the top of the mound/hill that causes the hole to play uphill.  On the most ambitious line from the tee I think the furthest you could hit it would be 230 yards before you run out of fairway.  If you go left there is a bunker at about 190 yards to collect your shot.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Better uphill holes have vision, it is suprising sometimes how downhill holes can be blind and uphill ones can still have a good view.
An uphill drive can often get you into a position where you can see the green and when that happens the blindness or part blindness issue gets removed. Driving to a brow of a hill or to a plateau can be a rewarding issue. As a contra I think an uphill aproach provided the green is framed can be quite attractive although maybe not too uphill.

Often the better holes uphill have a series of steps rather than a 400 yard long drag.

[PCCraig]

I think the key for the most successful uphill holes are that they are generally short in distance (but play longer). It also helps if the approach shot is with a short iron or wedge if the grade is steep.

[Kyle Henderson]

The best uphill holes are the ones that reward golfers by allowing several other stellar holes to be included in the routing (e.g. 16th at Bandon Trails)

[Chuck Brown]

Some of the better uphill holes I recall are those which don't seem terribly uphill.  For instance, ones where the tee is high above the fairway, but the hole still climbs. 
.
I would also that that better uphill holes finish at an unusual feature - like a raised bowl or into the pit of a mini canyon. 

I also think that uphill holes are a great place to slap in those major cross bunkers which menace the second shot if the drive isn't a good one.  It gives the archie a chance to really put on view a visually menacing bunker from the tee, but it isn't a worry for those who hit a solid drive.

I also like how Ross often went up hill with the 3 knob hole.  Hitting from a high spot to landing area which is high to a green which is high.  This holes interest me because one has to decide if can carry the 2nd knob to the flat of settle for laying back on top of the 2nd knob to avoid the dreaded downhill to an uphill approach. 

Ciao

Sean beat me to mentioning Ross, and that very feature of some Ross uphill designs.  Another thing Ross did was to make his short Par 4's (i.e., OHCC South #6) uphill.  FHCC demonstrates that too, although not as dramatically.

[Mike_Cirba]

At Lehigh, William Flynn solved the problem of the steepest uphill clims with short par fours.

I think it's a trick applicable anywhere.

[D_Malley]

phila cricket has several pretty good uphill par 4's, and i do not think any of them would be considered short.
#1, #9, #11

[mike_malone]

 We have so many uphill holes at Rolling Green that some people think all of them are.

   I would say that Flynn was able to create quite a bit of variety in the playability without severe walks.

     # 1 is a par four that is slightly uphill with a demanding green. It is open in front and some balls will run onto the green. Unfortunately, the running shots are on the right side of the green and move away from the flag . The left side of the green , where you want to be, usually requires an aerial approach.

   #4 is mostlly visible from the fairway and has an opening from the right. It is a relatively short par four hole. The green is banked on the right.

   #6 is one of our uphill par threes. As with the others, it appears more uphill than it is. If we recovered the fairway in front then an attempt at a runup shot would be allowed. The green is very visible. The green is saddled in front but slightly falls away at the back----those old guys were always thinking "drainage"

   #8 is severely uphill but is wide open in front. An attempt at a runup shot is rarely successful. It usually results in rolling back some 50 yards. The green is quite visible until you get within 100 yards. There is a subtle ridge from front left to back right in the green.

    #9 is a long par five, but you can see the flag from the tee setting up your strategy right away. There is a nice opening in front that allows a runup shot. The green again is visible. It is quite challenging after such a long trek to get there. It allows a significant roll from the back .

    #10 is a long par three that gradually goes uphill and has no change in elevation between the fairway and the green. This invites the runup shot. The green is fully visible. Again there is that saddle off of the bunkers in the front and gentle breaks in the rear.

   #11 is a mirror image of #4 with the opening on the left side and the possibility of bouncing off of the hill onto the green. The green is quite visible . The saddle is quite pronounced here.

  #12 is a short par four that uses blindness effectively. The approach from the right (shorter) is blind but into a receptive green. The approach from the left (longer) is visible but less receptive. There is a severe falloff on the right and an impossible hill on the left. One can get a nice roll from the back of the green or a disappointing roll off of the back right side.

   #14 is another long par three which requires, more often, an aerial shot. The green is quite visible. There is a severe falloff to the right, but I find that blind recovery easier than the visible one from the left because of the left to right slope of the green. The green has much movement and a putt from the back to the front is scary.

   #15 is the first dogleg uphill hole. The hole is short; the approach is blind to a two tiered green. The ridge is somewhat wavy. An aerial shot is almost always required. The opening is in the front. Front flags can lead to a first putt, a second wedge, a third wedge, a second putt, and so on.

   #17 is a short five dogleg to the left that is deceptively uphill all the way. The opening in front is rather narrow and the green is perched so an aerial shot is called for here.The green is generally visible from the fairway. The green is a wonderful short five green where it is difficult to get close to a front flag.

   #18 is a short five that doglegs to the right and slopes against your shot. The opening in front is huge but there is limited visibility. I can't recall another uphill green where the ball runs on as much as this green. You are always surprised at how far in the back of the green you are. But, you can't easily get to the front because of the slope.

      While there are many uphill holes here they have different heights, different angles of attack, different visibility issues, and very different greens at the top of the hill. They also move in all directions.

      The most severe elevation changes are from tee to fairway on a couple of holes. This shows Flynn's knack for making a hilly course both playable and walkable.

   None of these holes are weak; several are very good; and a few are great!


     So, I agree with much that has been said--little blindness; good use of severe falloffs; variety in the approach; receptive but not dull greens.

[mike_malone]

 The #11 at Lancaster CC in Pa. is a great example of another idea for the uphill hole------no letup!. After a large landing area and a view of the green from the tee---Flynn's trademark!--, you are faced with a severe uphill shot, BUT one that allows a runup from the expanded fairway on the right. Unfortunately, you need to stop the ball----good luck!---as you see it run and curve its way.

[JESII]

MIke,

I wouldn't consider 1, 11 or 18 uphill, do you have a contour map?

[Scott Szabo]

The best uphill holes are the ones that reward golfers by allowing several other stellar holes to be included in the routing (e.g. 16th at Bandon Trails)

I think Sand Hills #11 fits this description rather nicely, although it is a very fine hole in its own right...

[mike_malone]

 #1 is slightly uphill from the tee and also from the landing area; #11 and # 18 are up hill from the landing area. I agree # 11 green sits below the tee. #18 is a good question. I'll eyeball it the next time.

What's a contour map? You're not trying to lure me into a Merion thread are you?

[JESII]

A what? I don't know...


Are you talking about Rolling green's first hole being uphill from the tee?

You agree with #11? thanks for that...If only the Merion protagonists were so agreeable...

[RJ_Daley]

I think the business end of an uphill hole is the most important, and can involve much creativity in the entire green complex and surrounds.  I think the LZ of an uphill hole can be routed to an area, or graded-designed to have a nearly imperceptable downhill grade effecting lie, to a green complex that is uphill from the LZ, yet can seem level with the LZ due to a deep ravine or deep swale or bowl in the area between the LZ and the greensite.  The longer the yardage from the ideal LZ that is slightly downhill lie to the higher green, the more uncertainty can be incorporated into the club selection.  Obviously, false fronts are a major feature of many uphill greens i.e., Crystal Downs , then there are gateway run-ups with guarding bunkers oneside or both sides in the foregreen (i.e. 13 Torrey Pines which so many dislike).  Back of green surprises like small pot bunkers or deeper than expected back swales or collection areas, for chip or putt work nicely, I think.  In some cases, depending on the front of the green, and a fair margine of depth that an approach can be stopped on the green with a crisp shot via air or deft touch on a run-up, a fall away back portion that is not too unfair or severe can be fun on a deep green.  Skyline greens on the uphill are always a treat, also.  

[Peter Pallotta]

Lynn - from just a visual/aesthetic perspective, I like it when the rise starts a good distance from the tee, and when it crests some distance short of a well struck drive.  I also like seeing a lot of width to the fairway, ideally broadening as we move further uphill. (And now that I've written that it I'm thinking I probably find this kind of hole easier/friendlier to play...).

Peter

[Kyle Harris]

The #11 at Lancaster CC in Pa. is a great example of another idea for the uphill hole------no letup!. After a large landing area and a view of the green from the tee---Flynn's trademark!--, you are faced with a severe uphill shot, BUT one that allows a runup from the expanded fairway on the right. Unfortunately, you need to stop the ball----good luck!---as you see it run and curve its way.

Paging Cory Lewis! Paging Cory Lewis...

I'll let him tell you about the greatest approach shot I've ever seen.

[RJ_Daley]

Some of the best such uphillers I can think of also have a slight dogleg to them.  I don't know why.