NoCal courses. What to see first?

[ed_getka]

For those who have played any or all of the following please put them in the order of architectural interest. I haven't seen most of these courses and am going to try and see them over the course of the summer.

The Ridge (Auburn area)
Roddy Ranch
Rooster Run
Fountaingrove
Winchester
Shadow Lakes
Stevinson Ranch
Coyote Creek
Cinnabar
Saddle Creek

Thanks  

[Jeff_Stettner]

Ed:

Saddle Creek
Stevenson Ranch
Ridge
Cinnabar
Shadow Lakes (Soon before housing destroys)
Roddy Ranch
Fountaingrove
Rooster Run
Coyote Creek
 
Haven't seen Winchester, but I'll bet it's top 3.

[ed_getka]

Thanks Jeff. I've heard you are a big fan of Saddle Creek. What makes the course so good in your opinion? I'm definitely going to get up there with Neal one of these days.

[johnk]

Ed,

When you do come up here, let's try to
get some of the NorCal people together.
If you play with Neal, I'm sure you'll see Gib,
and I'd love to tag along

On your list, I'd add San Juan Oaks and
Stanford GC as good candidates. Of the ones
I've seen, my ranking:

Stevinson
Cinnabar (see Goodale, Huckster et al.)
Saddle Creek
Roddy
Coyote Creek

All of these are modern, and none could be more
than a 4 on the Doak scale (at least IMHO)

Coyote creek should definitely *be* missed.


johnk

[Jeff_Stettner]

Ed:
Saddle just flows with the land beautifully, and the holes have a lot of variety. It's good land, walkable, well kept and smartly designed.

Johnk:
Could you name any modern California course that deserves more than a 4?

[SGD]

CordeValle's better than every course on your list, with the only arguable exception being Winchester.

I'd also make an effort to play Mayacama in Santa Rosa, which I think is really good - one of the Nicklaus group's very best.

Jeff Stettner, Modern Northern California courses on the Doak scale?
I'd submit:

Mayacama 7+
CordeValle 7
Winchester 7
Granite Bay 7-
Spanish Bay 7- (minus because of the ridiculous environmental restrictions)
The Preserve 6 (10 site)
Stevinson Ranch 6
Wente 6
Saddle Creek 6
Diablo Grande Nicklaus 6-
San Juan Oaks 5
Serrano 5
The Ridge 5
Half Moon Bay Arthur Hills 5
Cinnabar Hills 5-
Roddy Ranch 5-

Of the public access, I think Wente's the most intriguing with Stevinson just behind.  Granite Bay is open to the public on Monday.  Saddle Creek's a hike from the Bay Area, making it difficult to play a second course on the same day.

[Jeff_Stettner]

SGD:
I think your assesments are pretty good, though I have a couple points of disagreement.
I think you put Wente far too high, and the Ridge far too low. Wente is one of those courses that I just don't get people's affection for. It's a bad routing on a bad site; the greens and bunkers are okay, but nothing to leap up and down about. There are just too many bad holes (4, 6, 13, 14, 16-18) to be anything more than a 5.
As for the Ridge, did you not love the shot options? There is hardly a bad hole out there, though 6,7,8 on the front are too similar and 2 and 9 are rather bland. But the back nine and middle part of the front nine are outstanding, especially 10-13.
I also think you have Saddle Creek too low; that course just rocks, I don't care what you say. Still, the only course on your list I haven't played is Winchester, and I'll hopefully see that in the next few weeks.
My list:
Saddle Creek7+
Mayacama7
Stevenson Ranch7
CordeValle 7
Granite Bay 7
Spanish Bay 7-
The Ridge6+
The Preserve 6
Wente 6
Diablo Grande Nicklaus 6-
Half Moon Bay Arthur Hills 5
Wente 5
Cinnabar Hills 5
Roddy Ranch 5-
San Juan Oaks 4
Serrano 4

[John_D._Bernhardt]

Thank You guys for putting courses that most can get on in a list. I thought Half Moon Bay Art Hills would be higher though. It is a good golf course.

[Peter Galea]

It is a good golf course.

I think so too, John. And, there's no pesky trees to get in the way.

[johnk]

Are there any modern NorCal courses above 4?

I think other people have seen more, but in the lists
above, there is a bit of grade inflation.  The actual
Doak rating on Spanish Bay is a 5 with the enviro.  

Comparing the ones I've seen to Doak's ratings on Stanford (6), Pasatiempo (7)
, Poppy Hills (4) and say Pacific Grove (4), I wouldn't rate Saddle Creek higher than 5, HMB Ocean 3, Wente 4, Cinnabar 4, San Juan Oaks 5, Stevinson 5, Eagle Ridge 4...

Overall, they all kinda bunch up as fine places but not
great.  I actually love to play at San Juan Oaks, but am not sure how architecturally great it is...

[Bob_Huntley]

Tommy N. notwithstanding, there is no way you could give Spanish Bay a 7.

[ed_getka]

Thanks for all the feedback guys. John, we'll definitely get together this summer for a round. Do you ever get out mid-week? I avoid weekend golf like the plague.
SGD,
  I will definitely be trying to play Mayacama this year. I have heard nothing but praise for the course and Winchester has received a lot of good feedback also. Where are you located?
  
I have a much better idea of where to play now, and can avoid wasting my hard earned dollars.

[Rick Phelps]

Sorry Guys, I just can't lurk on this one without asking if Twelve Bridges GC would appear on anyone's played list.  Although it's riddled with "pesky trees"   , I think it holds up pretty well against most if not all on the above lists.  Of course, I am a bit biased, but ....

The Longs Drug Challenge at Twelve Bridges begins on Thursday, Golf Channel coverage for any who are interested.

End of shameless self promotion!!!

[ed_getka]

Rick,
 Where would you place 12 Bridges in the lists above? I just listed some courses randomly to see how they would fall into place, so I am always interested in other courses. So put in order for me please and I will be making an effort to see the cream that has risen to the top consistently.

[Rick Phelps]

Ed-

There are so many courses on the above lists that I haven't seen, but of the handful that I have, my biased opinion says 12 Bridges is equal to or maybe a half-notch better.

I have seen:  Granite Bay, Spanish Bay, Poppy Hills, Wente

I have heard a lot about and/or seen pictures of:  Serrano, Stevinson, Half Moon Bay, Cinnabar.

One thing I would point out is that the Stevinson's, HMB's, etc. are going to be totally different in character to the courses like 12 Bridges and Granite Bay.  I actually prefer the open windswept sites like Stevinson for strategic options, but the site at 12 Bridges is still pretty awesome.

If I wasn't so biased, I would probably rank it equal with Granite Bay.  So I guess wherever that puts it in relation to the others, so be it.

[THuckaby2]

Rick's bias aside, Twelve Bridges is a GREAT golf course.  Ed, if you're heading Sacto-way, you'd be doing yourself a disservice NOT to see it.  Stettner's gonna freak when he reads this, but I liked it quite a bit more than Saddle Creek.  Just so I can freak you out also Ed, I also liked it more than Stevinson...  I'm not kidding, it is damn good.

I'd also rank HMB-Ocean (A. Hills course) far higher than SGD or Jeff also, so what do I know?    

I find little argument with much of the rest of this (though I don't hate either Coyote Creek course like most on here do),  one thing I believe we can all agree on in any case is that Mayacama belongs at the very top of this list.  If you can wangle a way inside those gates, go there FIRST.

TH

[Stan Dodd]

Ed
A sleeper is Northwoods in Guernville.  A 9 hole Mackenzie course that winds through redwoods and it won't cost you like the high dollar courses listed above.

[Jeff_Stettner]

Huckster:
I never freak out. I simply relish the fact that I know more at 25 than most ever do  ... hehe.
Rick:
I really like 12 Bridges; in fact, I recently drove out there from the Bay Area to play it and saw all the work that's going on. I think the chnages will be well received.
I really like the routing of the golf course. It flows very well, and I always enjoy the fact that I can comfortably walk a new longer layout. I think the greens work very well; I especially love the complex on number 7. It's very cool. The bunkers are well placed and very fair, if lacking a little artistic flair. That's a minimal complaint, however.
There are some things I might change. The doglegs on a few holes, 11 and 2 leap to mind, are a little sharp, and there are a few too many par fours that are too long to be driven but too short to have any kind of long approach. Strategy-wise, I'm not sure how many alternate routes there are.
As for where 12 Bridges fits in on my list, it falls behind Granite Bay but well ahead of Serrano, Poppy Hills and Wente. I'd be reticent to compare it to Spanish Bay; it's just too darn different.
Anyway, I always have fun playing 12 Bridges, and want to thank you for providing Norcal golfers with a really fine layout. I'll always take anybody's invitation to head out there.

[THuckaby2]

JS:  well assessed, as always, young man.

But you dodged the question... how does 12 Bridges fall compared to your beloved Saddle Creek?

TH

[Jeff_Stettner]

Tom:
Here we go; match play in its finest:
1 sc vs 1 tb: tb1up (good tough starting hole)
2 sc vs 2 tb: all aquare (2 at sc is a great dogleg par 4)
3 sc vs 3 tb: sc1up (both bland par 5s, though sc has more  strategy with the carry bunker and reachable green.)
4 sc vs 4 tb: sc1up (both reasonable par 3's; no standout)
5 sc vs 5 tb: all square (tb's par four better than the sharp dogleg at sc)
6 sc vs 6 tb: sc1up (6 at sc is one of the best long 4's in ca)
7 sc vs 7 tb: sc1up (both really good holes)
8 sc vs 8 tb: sc2up (8 at sc is a great par 5)
9 sc vs 9 tb: sc2up (both similar holes that are only okay)
10 sc vs 10 tb: sc2up (both mediocre par 4's)
11 sc vs 11 tb: sc3up (both holes among weakest on course)
12 sc vs 12 tb: sc3up (again similar holes)
13 sc vs 13 tb: sc3up (good 3 vs good 5)
14 sc vs 14 tb: sc4up (good long 4 at at tb falls short of great par 3 at sc)
15 sc vs 15 tb: sc3up (good par 5 at tb)
16 sc vs 16 tb: sc3up (good 4's on both)
17 sc vs 17 tb: sc3up (good 4 vs good 3)
18 sc vs 18 tb: sc2up (bland finish at sc)

So, Saddle Creek wins 2up despite a weak finish. Saddle Creek is just a really good course, this is no shot at all at 12 Bridges.

[THuckaby2]

Very good, well done you young whipped former stud you.

I honestly don't remember enough of SC to critique one way or the other.  I am pleased that 12 Bridges came out this close in your match in any case... that course to me is a "fave" that I always rave about and recommend no matter what.  I've never had one friend make the trek to Rocklin and regret it... Can't say the same about Copperopolis.  That says more about my friends than the quality of the golf courses though....  

TH

[Matt_Ward]

For what it's worth from the guy in Jersey I urge anyone to see Winchester in Meadow Vista and Corde Valle. Agree with SBD on the merits of both layouts. First rate piece of properties and the designs by Robert Trent Jones, Jr. are definite winners in my book.

When the Digest listed Winchester among the top 15 in California I had to check it out during my visit to the vicinity last year. Don't know if I would place it that high given the depth of courses in the state, however, I know I was not disappointed.

I have not played 12 Bridges or Saddle Creek but I would rate Winchester no less than a solid 7 -- ditto Corde Valle.

I wonder how others more aware of what's taking place would rate Sonoma? Finally, take a pass on Coyote Creek and I thought The Ridge, while interesting at times, did not sustain itself throughout the round. Just some thoughts from the right coast.

[THuckaby2]

Matt:  great recommendations throughout.  

I know of no one who's come back from Winchester with anything but raves.  Cordevalle has had more mixed reviews.  But hell, is there ever unanimity on anything?

TH

[SGD]

Tom Huckaby:

What have been the "mixed reviews" for CordeValle?  I haven't heard any.  Architecturally, it's better than Winchester, though the visuals at Winchester are certainly more dramatic.

The only negative I've heard re: CordeValle has nothing to o with the golf course or facilities, but the insistence by one media member/activist to try to convert it into a public-access golf course by using his golf column as a political bully pulpit.  

Back to architecture in Northern California, besides the big name Golden Age courses and the newer courses which have been discussed in previous threads on this post, I would recommend Ed to go play The Meadow Club, a relatively unknown Mackenzie track in Marin County that Mike DeVries has done some neat restoration work at.  

[THuckaby2]

SGD:

Hey, said media member quoted me in his column reviewing the new San Jose muni course, so I like him!  As a public course golfer and a Santa Clara County taxpayer, I also have no problems with what he's trying to do re Cordevalle, making them live up to their covenants.

But this isn't a place for political discussion and that's not what I was getting at at all.  I just have two friends who played the course and didn't think much of it.  Outside of people posting on this site, I know 3 others who played it and they loved it.  Two and three to me is mixed.  

As I say, nothing is ever unanimous.  From what I have seen in pictures and from what people have said on this site, I believe I'd really like Cordevalle.  Hopefully I'll get to see it some day.

And Ed has seen Meadow Club - he was there with Mike DeVries when he took a few GCA stalwarts through his on-going renovation there last year.

Let's also remember that many of our recommendations here are private clubs, and guys like Ed and myself rely on the graciousness of friends to allow access... it's NEVER a given these places can be seen for us.  

Still, good call in any case!  Meadow Club is a gem and it's gonna be REALLY great when DeVries gets through with it, agreed 100%.  I have been fortunate to get to play there myself several times.

TH