Most Overrated Modern Courses (post 1990) ?

[Kenny Baer]

Duncan,

Would you mind elaborating on why you believe Cape Kidnappers is overrated?  I wonder why you think so.

John,

I wasn't aware that Tom Doak himself posted on this site, I had assumed it was more of a collection of interested observers such as myself.  I'm sure he can handle honest commentary, I was going to say 'honest criticism' and then I realised I had actually said the course is exceptionally good!

I'm sure its not Tom Doak who is overrating Kidnappers, but merely magazine editors smitten with the heavenly scene that awaits when one is lucky enough to play the course.  With apologies to the architects of Kauri Cliffs (if he posts here) I'm not as convinced that this course is exceptionally good, despite magazines and websites telling me otherwise.

I'm not sure Tom Doak could have done any better with what he had, I just can't see the end result not having 50 better 'end results' in the world, and I've never even set foot in Scotland.

[Jim Colton]

How is it possible that we're two pages into this thread and nobody has mentioned Rich Harvest?

I'll second RHF.  GD must reward bonus points for having ultra-exclusive clubs in Illinois on the owner's estates.  Canyata 42, Rich Harvest 46.

[John Moore II]

Cart girls smell like feces.

Now thats just wrong. Just plain wrong.

You're right. It is. But don't blame him --- blame the cart girls. There's no way in the world there isn't an element of truth in a statement like that, so they've only got themselves to blame...

I wasn't blaming him, I was saying it was wrong that the cart girls smelled like ass. And that is just plain wrong; take a shower sweet thing, use some Degree.

[George Pazin]

I haven't played many of the courses in question, but Matt will be happy to learn that I don't consider Black Mesa or Wolf Creek overrated, and I DO consider Olde Stonewall to be perhaps the most overrated course I've played. If that's the best public we have in PA, we're really in trouble.

 

I'd be more interested in hearing the list of most underrated, hopefully that will come another day.

[Adam Clayman]

I'll be happy to post mine and a few of my friends once the ball starts rolling.

Is this the most chicken shit way to start a discussion, since 1999?

[Michael Dugger]

With apologies to the architects of Kauri Cliffs (if he posts here) I'm not as convinced that this course is exceptionally good, despite magazines and websites telling me otherwise.

I highly doubt the architect of Kauri Cliffs is going to complain about this comment.

I think he passed away.

[PCCraig]

I'll be happy to post mine and a few of my friends once the ball starts rolling.

Is this the most chicken shit way to start a discussion, since 1999?

Sounds about right as I think we all know by now Matt considers his opinion definitive! 

[Matt_Ward]

Adam:

Put a sock on your gums -- I stated it that way to get the ball rolling. If you have any clue you'll know I've never been bashful in stating my opiions. So please nuff of the worthless drivel -- by the way -- I have posted a few of the layouts where I agree with those who have already posted. Be more than happy to add a number of others from my assorted travels too.

Instead of the usual sniping and backbiting BS -- spell out your own preferences. Happy to do likewise.

George P:

I hear what you say about Olde Stonewall. No doubt it's overrated for Pennsy public courses but fortunately the course doesn't draw national acclaim - if it did it would draw even more fire for being above where it should be. One can make a case that the Dye Course at Nemacolin Woodlands might also be a worthy mention as well.

Pat C:

Thanks for the compliment !

I want to see what others think -- unfortunately, in doing so I get judged either way. Fair enough -- Pat, by all means, feel free to throw forward your candidates tied to what this thread requests. I'll be doing no less.

[Matt_Ward]

Dave S:

Well said on Rich Harvest Links -- have not played Canyata to date but just want to know more on what you and others don't see it having to merit such attention.

Thanks ...

[Tom_Doak]

Mr. Betts:

I'm not offended by your comment on Cape Kidnappers though I would guess my client might be.

I'm not sure that I agree with you though that Kidnappers is overrated.  It all depends on how you look at things.  Many people prefer links golf to other forms, so they will reserve most of their top 50 to sandy courses which deliver uneven stances and other links features.  And Cape Kidnappers has none of that, as my other top-rated courses (Pacific Dunes and Barnbougle) do.

However, Cape Kidnappers is a unique setting for golf, and for other panelists that one-of-a-kind distinction puts it above some other places which might have more complicated golf features.  And I wouldn't call them wrong.  I know it is a place I love to go back to, and I would be glad to bet my house against yours that if we brought you over to the USA we could find a half-dozen courses you felt were more overrated than Cape Kidnappers.  

[Bill Brightly]

I had a discussion with a group of my friends who travel as much, if not more so, than I do.

I'm still having a hard time believing that there is a GROUP of people who play as many courses as Matt...

[mark chalfant]

Matt

I have not played or seen Whistling Straits, though many of my friends have. The opinion of these friends is mixed.Two liked it a lot. however three others (hcp. 3 and hcp. 7) were disappointed.  One person said: " top 50 or 60, but not top 20"

[Matt_Ward]

Mark C:

So what are you asking me / re: WS ?

Bill B:

You'd be surprised that two of my good buds -- one being an airline pilot and the other in the military are big time golf nuts who try to get to as many courses as possible. Unfortunately, I have them in my rear view mirror ! I also have 3-4 friends who have played 50+ of the top rated course listings from most of the key mags.

[Kenny Baer]

I think this has a chance to be a very interesting thread.....BUT if all anyone one is going to do is name a course and then not give any reasons as to why they think said course is overrated then.....
We might as well start a thread about your favorite person to play golf with....but  just give a name....like Burt, or Jon,....or Mandingo......w/o explanation this thread makes little sense.

Many have not played the courses that individuals are saying are overrated and an explanation as to why you think the course is overrated would be interesting, please don't be scared.

[George Pazin]

I think my favorite person to play golf with is Adam.

 

[Brad Tufts]

Osprey Meadows, Tamarack Resort in Donnelly ID.........Closed til further notice.  Probably not as much a clunker as the ultimate in BAD timing.

That's too bad.  I played this course last September, and I liked it quite a bit.  Unfortunately it had to open at the worst possible time.  I thought the course to be brawny, scenic both on-course and off, and challenging.  The 18th hole was/is certainly a clunker, but I can let that slide after the previous 17...

[Brad Tufts]

Tom, I think there are a lot of courses on there that are not overrated. Is Bandon Dunes overrated? And we know that at least as some time or the other you, personally, didn't think Shadow Creek was overrated, having rated it a 9 in the CG.

But I think so much of these best new lists depend on how much the club is willing to advertise and and shake enough hands to get the raters to come on the site. And did Ballyneal really want the major press related to Best New? I know Brad Tufts has told me that when he worked at Myopia Hunt they didn't want raters and they barely got enough raters out in a given year to keep themselves in the top 25 best-in-state rankings for Golf Digest. Is Ballyneal the same way? And does it really matter what some rating says? (end quote)

To clarify, I don't think Myopia didn't "want" raters, they just exercised their right to not allow raters unaccompanied access.  They did have enough outside tournaments in the spring and fall that many people were able to play the course and submit ratings, so I don't believe they have ever suffered for numbers like TCC has.

Ballyneal is not the same way.  As for ratings mattering?  It creates good discussion to fuel the site! (if nothing else).

I can't think of any terribly overrated post-1990 courses at the moment (Great River?).  I've only played a few of those on the lists posted above, and I don't think those that I have played are overrated at all.  My most overrated is Stanwich (pre-recent-renovation), the perennial #1 in CT, but that is pre-1990.  A friend of mine and I refer to it as "Best in Show" GC.  Not a bad layout at all, just not #1 in CT for me...

[John_Conley]

I highly doubt the architect of Kauri Cliffs is going to complain about this comment.

I think he passed away.

Mike, yes he did.  I believe his name was Dave Harman.  He was in course construction I think, then made a bit of a splash with the massive Orange County National projct.  Co-design credit went to Isao Aoki and Phil Ritson.  The Panther Lake course is quite fun to play, but the routing is peculiar.  With acres of land in all direction, he somehow begins with a spaghetti junction that should have been avoidable.  (There weren't any real constraints like a road or intense wetlands.)

I believe Ritson was giving lessons to Julian Robertson, which was enough of a connection to get Harman the job on such an incredible site.  His follow-up in the Orlando area was Magnolia Plantation, which is impossibly awful.  (It is just N of Alaqua and the Legacy Club at Alaqua Lakes and sits across Markham Woods Road from Heathrow.)

I played Red Tail (halfway between Heathrow and Mike Dasher's Eagle Dunes) upon its opening and was informed Mr. Harman died that very week.

Quite a varied assortment!  Kauri Cliffs is world-renowned and the courses at OCN are notable becuase they host Q-School often.  On the other end of the spectrum you have Magnolia Plantation.  In an area with over 100 courses, it is probably the worst.  (Housing and wetlands obviously posed the challenge here.)

[Kenny Baer]

I think this has a chance to be a very interesting thread.....BUT if all anyone one is going to do is name a course and then not give any reasons as to why they think said course is overrated then.....

Rich Harvest has an astroturf tee.

Whistling Straits is a Disney-fied version of the real McCoy, plus it has one of the worst golf holes ever created on a well-received golf course - the "one of these things is not like the others" 6th, which if named (per the discussion on the other thread) would have to be named Sesame Street.

Does RH really have an astroturf tee?  Why?

[Adam Clayman]

Adam:

Put a sock on your gums -- I stated it that way to get the ball rolling. If you have any clue you'll know I've never been bashful in stating my opiions. So please nuff of the worthless drivel -- by the way -- I have posted a few of the layouts where I agree with those who have already posted. Be more than happy to add a number of others from my assorted travels too.

Instead of the usual sniping and backbiting BS -- spell out your own preferences. Happy to do likewise.

George P:

I hear what you say about Olde Stonewall. No doubt it's overrated for Pennsy public courses but fortunately the course doesn't draw national acclaim - if it did it would draw even more fire for being above where it should be. One can make a case that the Dye Course at Nemacolin Woodlands might also be a worthy mention as well.

Pat C:

Thanks for the compliment !

I want to see what others think -- unfortunately, in doing so I get judged either way. Fair enough -- Pat, by all means, feel free to throw forward your candidates tied to what this thread requests. I'll be doing no less.

Matt, the ball rolled. You responded to several posts yet nothing from you and your friends, as promised. My disappointment must have caused me some  temporary loss of intelligence and comedic sense.

I'm terribly sorry I can not post my own because I don't have one. Perhaps a narrower gauge of whose list you are referring to, would create a base where people could opine on what they might consider to be over-rated. Just a suggestion. Sock returning to gums.

[Jim Colton]

I think this has a chance to be a very interesting thread.....BUT if all anyone one is going to do is name a course and then not give any reasons as to why they think said course is overrated then.....

Rich Harvest has an astroturf tee.

Whistling Straits is a Disney-fied version of the real McCoy, plus it has one of the worst golf holes ever created on a well-received golf course - the "one of these things is not like the others" 6th, which if named (per the discussion on the other thread) would have to be named Sesame Street.

Does RH really have an astroturf tee?  Why?

I heard the opened up the trees a little and added a grass tee behind these for the Solheim Cup.

[Jim Franklin]

I think this has a chance to be a very interesting thread.....BUT if all anyone one is going to do is name a course and then not give any reasons as to why they think said course is overrated then.....
We might as well start a thread about your favorite person to play golf with....but  just give a name....like Burt, or Jon,....or Mandingo......w/o explanation this thread makes little sense.

Many have not played the courses that individuals are saying are overrated and an explanation as to why you think the course is overrated would be interesting, please don't be scared.

Lakota Canyon - It seemed as if every other if not 2 out of three holes had a bowl shaped green site to kick back balls. I like Engh courses and was really looking forward to this one, but was let down. I understand why the green sites were shaped like that, but that doesn't mean I have to like it. A few holes were great like the par 5 5th or 6th. I really enjoyed that hole and the deceptive nature of the tee shot.

[Kenny Baer]

Jim,

I have little expierence with Engh but in my limited expierence (Creek @ Reynolds) I found much the same thing.  A little bit over the top features; IMO, almost that it seemed he was trying to make the player say wow on every shot, or something like that, I still can't figure out what he was doing actually.  It was fun but so different then any other nice course I have ever played.

[Richard Hetzel]

I thought that the GAILES Course at Lakewood Shores was way OVERRATED.

[Jim Franklin]

Jim,

I have little expierence with Engh but in my limited expierence (Creek @ Reynolds) I found much the same thing.  A little bit over the top features; IMO, almost that it seemed he was trying to make the player say wow on every shot, or something like that, I still can't figure out what he was doing actually.  It was fun but so different then any other nice course I have ever played.

Kenny -

I think Jim is trying to design a course a higher handicapper can enjoy on a regular basis and not get totally frustrated. Most clubs are not chock full of tour players and more people are quitting the game because it is a hard game. I played the Creek Club and found it to be very fun. You hit the ball and watch it bounce and then play your next shot. It is why I like links golf. you never know what you will get. But at Lakota, it just was not fun. Creek Club yes, Lakota no.