Most Overrated Modern Courses (post 1990) ?

[John Moore II]

Mark, I don't think any public course would be against the rankings, but in some cases, I would think the ultra private clubs may not really care. I mean, is Pine Valley really shaking and sweating at the brow because they fell in the rankings this year? Does it matter in the case of Ballyneal given that they are a 'retreat' course do they want or need the publicity that a top100 ranking affords (though I am fairly certain they are ranking by Golf Magazine and Golfweek)?

[Andy Troeger]

John,
Don't kid yourself, ratings matter a LOT to most courses. There are courses that don't care, but often they aren't that highly rated anyway. New courses especially need the ratings, even Ballyneal. Even on this website I wonder how many guys would take the trouble to get to Holyoke, CO to see the course if it wouldn't have been rated well by ANY of the major publications. Its an important tool to get folks to the course in the first place--once they've seen it for themselves and its a question of membership then I would hope that ratings don't even enter the picture.  Once a club has their membership set that's often when the policies change and become more restrictive towards raters, but even then no club really wants to say that they USED to be a Top 100 course.

[astavrides]

I had a discussion with a group of my friends who travel as much, if not more so, than I do.

I didn't know such people existed.  They haven't played more courses than you, have they?  How many have you played now--maybe 2500?

So as not to completely attempt a thread jack, I will offer up Olde Stonewall as an answer to your topic.

[Matt_Ward]

astavrides:

One of my buds is an airplane pilot and the other is a career military person so both have had the opportunity to travel a good bit -- in fact, plenty of it is international in scope although not as much to the UK and Ireland.


Steve Salmen:

Good call / re: Cascata. The most the course should be is $100 -- for the tag they are charging and for the design to be nothing more an engineering marvel for how it got built on the site it occupies that's all it's worth to me.

Dan Hermann:

No doubt Sandpines is also on my listing. Good call there.

Tom Doak:

Just to let you know one of my overrated layouts is Redlands Mesa in Colorado -- I liked the course for what it provides but the national acclaim it got then and now is puzzling to me.

Jeff B:

Good question -- you can likely say overrated based on the total time frame the course(s) have been opened -- not just when they immediately opened.

[Richard Choi]

The couple of public golf courses at Reflection Bay were so over-rated that they thought they could charge $250/round and now they are closed (top 50 GD public ranking). I think that pretty much speaks for itself.

It is also pretty amusing to see Harbour Pointe GC in that list of best new. It is a Doak 4 or 5 at best, and I have played about 30 rounds there.

[Greg Tallman]

Though I really like the course and believe i is VERY good I will go with Pete Dye Golf Club in Bridgeport, WV. It is likely the finest facility in my homeland but to be op 5 modern courses? I have a hard time with that ranking.

[Matt_Ward]

PFerlicca:

Good call also on The Preserve ... truly remarkable land that only received a so-so course.

Could / should have been that much better.

p.s. Although I did enjoy the opening hole !

[Mark Pritchett]

I guess you also need to look at overrated vs. grossly overrated.  I think Shadow Creek is a great course and certainly a top 100 course, however, I think it might be slightly overrated, but not too much.  

I think the Nicklaus course at Colleton River is overrated.  It isn't even the best course at Colleton River, though that speaks to the quality of its sister layout.

[Kenny Baer]

Longaberger: Great land, close to unwalkable, too many silly holes, Cart girls smell like feces.

[John Moore II]

Cart girls smell like feces.

Now thats just wrong. Just plain wrong.

[Cory Lewis]

I gotta go with Bulle Rock, a pretty good Pete Dye on a better than average piece of property, nothing very special or memorable in my opinion.

[J_ Crisham]

Jeff:  You're probably right that I used the wrong standard.  But part of my point was that all of these Best New selections get a huge push because they won, and many of them have stayed near the top while others were overlooked, just because of the original vote.  (Ballyneal is one example of a course which missed out right away, and is still paying for it.  It only finished sixth for that year.)

Actually, when I look at those past best new winners, my reaction is that nearly ALL of them are overrated.  Exceptions for yours and mine and Sand Hills, of course.

Tom,

How do you explain Stonewall starting as high as #60?

Mike,  I played Stonewall last week with some friends. We came out from Chicago for our annual trip to Philly. This was sandwiched between rounds at HVCC, Lancaster, Aronimink,and a trip to Merion.  Stonewall was nice but was not even in the same league with Lancaster(my favorite course in Philly area-but I've not seen PV)Merion  and Aronimink. HVCC was a fine design as well. Stonewall has a very nice remoteness to it's grounds but it was very average in our opinion. It does possess a nice set of par 3's. Hard to compete with  the Flynn/Toomey  designs.  Just our observations,   Jack

[Phil McDade]

Phil McDade- Did you pay the original River-Valley course?

My guess, by your response is that you did not.

Adam:

Yes, I've played both. I liked the original better than what's there now, but I'm not a big fan. Too many forced carries on shots, too much water, too many holes with little options on how to attack them. Some good stuff, yes, but not close to being the best course in the state, which some view it as.

[Peter Ferlicca]

astavrides:

One of my buds is an airplane pilot and the other is a career military person so both have had the opportunity to travel a good bit -- in fact, plenty of it is international in scope although not as much to the UK and Ireland.


Steve Salmen:

Good call / re: Cascata. The most the course should be is $100 -- for the tag they are charging and for the design to be nothing more an engineering marvel for how it got built on the site it occupies that's all it's worth to me.

Dan Hermann:

No doubt Sandpines is also on my listing. Good call there.

Tom Doak:

Just to let you know one of my overrated layouts is Redlands Mesa in Colorado -- I liked the course for what it provides but the national acclaim it got then and now is puzzling to me.Jeff B:

Good question -- you can likely say overrated based on the total time frame the course(s) have been opened -- not just when they immediately opened.

You are the right on the money with that one.  Everyone on this site raves about this course, but I just didn't see it.  I played Sand Hollow Golf Resort the day before and was just amazed, and then thinking, "Oh boy I am in for a treat tomorrow because everyone says Redlands Mesa is great.”  I go there and was just completely disappointed, to make my point; Sand Hollow just absolutely trumped Redlands Mesa.  Either that means Sand Hollow is really superior, or Redlands Mesa is just not that good.

[J_ Crisham]

The Glen Club is pretty overrated and certainly overpriced in the Chicago area. For the same price one can play at Cog Hill. Would also put Pine Meadows ahead of Glen Club both monetarily and quality of track.    Jack

[Ronald Montesano]

Is it the courses we should be calling into question, or the worth of the raters?  By what system and what values are we discounting the worth of any particular course?  I read all the posts on this thread and didn't find a single, penetrating one.  Doesn't the fault lie with you/us for expecting something of a certain course, based on what you've heard/read from others?

Jay Flemma and I will never agree on the three Turning Stone courses, which is fine by me.  I think all three are fairly amazing achievements, given the close-to-crap land on which they were built.  I love upstate New York, having lived most of my life there, but the truly great land is either in the Adirondacks/Catskills or along the PA border.  The I-90 corridor has little movement, probably why they dug the Erie Canal there (I believe the Canal was dug a few decades after Robert Moses built all his roads.)

Could this thread run a different course, such as "Architect/Designer who failed to sate your thirst, despite her/his previous efforts"?  If we truly want to develop a soul-barring thread, perhaps we purge with "Features I like from an architect I despise."

[Duncan Betts]

Outside the USA, I'd have to go with Kauri Cliffs, NZ and to a lesser degree, Cape Kidnappers, NZ.

Kauri is just exceptionally bad for such an amazing location, while Kidnappers is exceptionally good, but I've seen it as high as the Top 50 in the world, which just isn't plausible.

[John Moore II]

Outside the USA, I'd have to go with Kauri Cliffs, NZ and to a lesser degree, Cape Kidnappers, NZ.

Kauri is just exceptionally bad for such an amazing location, while Kidnappers is exceptionally good, but I've seen it as high as the Top 50 in the world, which just isn't plausible.

Welcome to the site. Prepare to get a firm, not-likeable introduction from some of the other members in regards to your saying Kidnappers is overrated. To say anything by Tom Doak is not among the top 5 in the world is nearly the same as insluting someone's mother on these pages. And you do know that Tom, himself, posts here, no?

Again, welcome, good to have you here.

[Duncan Betts]

John,

I wasn't aware that Tom Doak himself posted on this site, I had assumed it was more of a collection of interested observers such as myself.  I'm sure he can handle honest commentary, I was going to say 'honest criticism' and then I realised I had actually said the course is exceptionally good!

I'm sure its not Tom Doak who is overrating Kidnappers, but merely magazine editors smitten with the heavenly scene that awaits when one is lucky enough to play the course.  With apologies to the architects of Kauri Cliffs (if he posts here) I'm not as convinced that this course is exceptionally good, despite magazines and websites telling me otherwise.

I'm not sure Tom Doak could have done any better with what he had, I just can't see the end result not having 50 better 'end results' in the world, and I've never even set foot in Scotland.

[Richard Choi]

Who let this guy in? 

[John Moore II]

Duncan-No worries, Tom is a great guy to talk with on here, he won't take offense, at least probably not...

And likely the ocean views and such play into Kidnappers being rated so high. After all, given the tastes of some on here, the 16th at Cypress Point might be ridiculed as an overly difficult, monster par 3 were it not for the setting on the rocks. Setting and looks play a big part in rankings.

[Jim Franklin]

Lakota Canyon.

[PThomas]

How is it possible that we're two pages into this thread and nobody has mentioned Rich Harvest?

we were waiting for you to do it Shiv

[Andy Troeger]

Lakota Canyon.

Jim--I know you hate Lakota but its not even ranked anywhere anymore other than state lists. Given that, its underrated  

[PCCraig]

Canyata