Most Overrated Modern Courses (post 1990) ?

[Matt_Ward]

I had a discussion with a group of my friends who travel as much, if not more so, than I do.

We made a listing of some of the more overrated layouts that have opened since 1990 in the USA -- a number of them are rated by at least one major mag -- some by a few. Be curious to see which ones people feel are the most overrated that they have played and their reasoning.

I'll be happy to post mine and a few of my friends once the ball starts rolling.

Candidates need not be segregated by category (public / private) or if public by fees.

[Jay Flemma]

Blarney Stone Casino...err...Turning Stone Casino.

[Sean Leary]

The Prince Course.

[Jim Colton]

Tullymore

[JC Jones]

Tullymore

could not agree more!

[cary lichtenstein]

Trump LA

[Phil McDade]

Blackwolf Run -- River Course. Public daily fee, Kohler, WI. Pete Dye.

Misses the 1990 deadline by two years, but still...

[Tom_Doak]

We all know Matt's #1.  (Hint:  Viva Las Vegas, not.)

There have been so many I wouldn't know where to start.  But perhaps that is to be expected, considering the numbers involved.  Since 1990 there were like 3,000 new courses built in the USA, and sixty of them won a GOLF DIGEST "Best New" award.  It's inevitable there would be some clunkers.

[John Moore II]

Talamore in Pinehurst was rated the #2 Best New Course in the nation in 1991 when it opened. If that one was #2, I'd hate to think what #1 was, and I'd not think of even setting foot on the courses ranked #3 or below. And it still milks that distinction to this day.

And I think much of Tom Fazio's work, while being very good, tends to be a bit overrated.

[Peter Ferlicca]

The Preserve Golf Club

Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed my golf round; it just seemed like on that good of property that there were just so many plain and boring golf holes.

[Joe Bausch]

Is a public or private course more likely to be overrated?

[John Moore II]

Is a public or private course more likely to be overrated?

I would say private because they have the money and sway with the publications to get raters out there and they do enough palm pressing to make it good. Though Tobacco Road spends buckets of money on advertisement and look where it landed them in the publications...

[Sean Leary]

Wolf Creek, Glenwild, Black Mesa, any public course in Colorado.

[Jim Colton]

We all know Matt's #1.  (Hint:  Viva Las Vegas, not.)

There have been so many I wouldn't know where to start.  But perhaps that is to be expected, considering the numbers involved.  Since 1990 there were like 3,000 new courses built in the USA, and sixty of them won a GOLF DIGEST "Best New" award.  It's inevitable there would be some clunkers.

This may be the only time you'll see Longaberger next to Pac Dunes in anything.

Best New Public Courses
1990: Tidewater G.Links, North Myrtle Beach, S.C., Ken Tomlinson (using a Rees Jones routing).
1991: Harbour Pointe G.C., Mukilteo, Wash., Arthur Hills.
1992: Pumpkin Ridge G.C., (Ghost Creek Cse.), Cornelius, Ore., Bob Cupp.
1993: Sandpines, Florence, Ore., Rees Jones.
1994: Karsten Creek G.C., Stillwater, Okla., Tom Fazio.
1995: La Cantera G.C., San Antonio, Tex., Jay Morrish & Tom Weiskopf.

Best New Resort Courses
1990: The Prince Cse., Princeville, Kauai, Hawaii, Robert Trent Jones Jr.
1991: The Ocean Cse., Kiawah Island, S.C., Pete Dye.
1992: Pelican Hill G.C. (Ocean Cse.), Newport Coast, Cal., Tom Fazio. (Now Pelican Hill's Ocean South Cse.)
1993: Lakewood Shores G. & C.C. (Gailes Cse.), Oscoda, Mich., Kevin Aldridge (using a Bob Cupp routing).
1994: World Woods G.C. (Pine Barrens Cse.), Brooksville, Fla., Tom Fazio.
1995: Crosswater, Sunriver, Ore., Bob Cupp.

Best New Affordable Public Courses
1996: PGA G.C. at The Reserve (South Cse.), Port St. Lucie, Fla., Tom Fazio. (Now Wanamaker Cse.)
1997: Quarry Oaks G.C., Ashland, Neb., John LaFoy.
1998: Running Y Ranch Resort, Klamath Falls, Ore., Arnold Palmer, Ed Seay, Erik Larsen & John Thronson.
1999: El Diablo G. & C.C., Citrus Springs, Fla., Jim Fazio.
2000: Paa Ko Ridge G.C., Sandia Park, N.M., Ken Dye.
2001: The G.C. at Redlands Mesa, Grand Junction, Colo., Jim Engh.
2002: Rustic Canyon G. Cse., Moorpark, Calif., Gil Hanse, Jim Wagner and Geoff Shackelford
2003: Black Mesa G.C., La Mesilla, N.M., Baxter Spann.
2004: Copper Mill G.C., Zachary, La., Max Maxwell and Nathan Crace.
2005: Bully Pulpit G. Cse., Medora, N.D., Michael Hurdzan.
2006: King Carter G.C., Irvington, Va.,Joel Weiman.


Best New Upscale Public Courses
1996: Stonehouse G.C., Toano, Va., Mike Strantz.(Now called Legends of Stonehouse G.C.)
1997: Royal New Kent G.C., Providence Forge, Va., Mike Strantz.
1998: Bulle Rock G.C., Havre de Grace, Md., Pete Dye.
1999: Bandon Dunes G.C., Bandon, Ore., David McLay Kidd.
2000: Longaberger G.C., Nashport, Ohio, Arthur Hills.
2001: Pacific Dunes G. Links, Bandon, Ore., Tom Doak.
2002: Tullymore G.C., Stanwood, Mich., Jim Engh
2003: Forest Dunes G.C., Roscommon, Mich., Tom Weiskopf.
2004: The Quarry at Giants Ridge, Biwabik, Minn., Jeff Brauer.
2005: The Wilderness at Fortune Bay, Tower, Minn., Jeff Brauer.
2006: Osprey Meadows, Donnelly, Idaho, Robert Trent Jones Jr. and Bruce Charlton.

Best New Private Courses
1990: Shadow Creek, North Las Vegas, Nev., Tom Fazio & Steve Wynn.
1991: The Golf Club of Georgia (Lakeside Cse.), Alpharetta, Ga., Arthur Hills.
1992: Atlantic G.C., Bridgehampton, N.Y., Rees Jones.
1993: Colleton River Plantation G.C., Bluffton, S.C., Jack Nicklaus. (Now Colleton River's Nicklaus Cse.)
1994: Old Overton C., Vestavia Hills, Ala., Tom Fazio & Jerry Pate.
1995: Sand Hills G.C., Mullen, Neb., Bill Coore & Ben Crenshaw.
1996: The Estancia C., Scottsdale, Tom Fazio.
1997: Sanctuary G.C., Sedalia, Colo., Jim Engh.
1998: Nantucket G.C., Siasconset, Mass., Rees Jones.
1999: Victoria National G.C., Newburgh, Ind., Tom Fazio.
2000: The Olde Farm, Bristol, Va., Bobby Weed.
2001: Kinloch G.C., Manakin-Sabot, Va., Lester George with Vinny Giles.
2002: The G.C. at Briar's Creek, Johns Island, S.C., Rees Jones
2003: The Club at Black Rock, Coeur d'Alene, Idaho, Jim Engh.
2004: Sutton Bay G.C., Agar, S.D., Graham Marsh, designer
2005: The Alotian Club, Roland, Ark., Tom Fazio.
2006: The Concession G.C., Bradenton, Fla., Jack Nicklaus and Tony Jacklin.

[Adam Clayman]

Phil McDade- Did you pay the original River-Valley course?

My guess, by your response is that you did not.

[Andy Troeger]

I think Blackwolf Run River is one of the most underrated courses in the country for what that's worth.

Its also important to make a distinction as to what publication is doing the "overrating." Tullymore is most certainly not overrated by GolfWeek or Golf Magazine--I'm admittedly surprised by the 100 Greatest listing from Golf Digest but will admit to agreeing with it. I'm not surprised others do not.

[Jason McNamara]

Wolf Creek, Glenwild, Black Mesa, any public course in Colorado.

That is a lot of bait for one reply, isn't it?   

[W.H. Cosgrove]

Osprey Meadows, Tamarack Resort in Donnelly ID.........Closed til further notice.  Probably not as much a clunker as the ultimate in BAD timing.

[Jeff_Brauer]

2004: The Quarry at Giants Ridge, Biwabik, Minn., Jeff Brauer.
2005: The Wilderness at Fortune Bay, Tower, Minn., Jeff Brauer.

Crap I may as well beat you all to the punch.......

Seriously though, is the GD Best New the right list to compare?  Or someone's top 100 lists (GW modern perhaps?) 

Matt, was your question "over rated initially" or is it "over rated after 1-19 years of play?"  There could be a big difference.

[Tom_Doak]

Jeff:  You're probably right that I used the wrong standard.  But part of my point was that all of these Best New selections get a huge push because they won, and many of them have stayed near the top while others were overlooked, just because of the original vote.  (Ballyneal is one example of a course which missed out right away, and is still paying for it.  It only finished sixth for that year.)

Actually, when I look at those past best new winners, my reaction is that nearly ALL of them are overrated.  Exceptions for yours and mine and Sand Hills, of course.

[Dan Herrmann]

Those are interesting lists.  The one that stands out like a blinking neon sign is Sandpines.

I played it back when I lived in Oregon solely because of its #1 ranking.  There was one hole I liked, but when I was done, I asked myself, "is that it?"

But I think there have been a whole lot more quality designs in the last 20 years than from 1970-1990.

[Steve Salmen]

The most overrated course I've ever played is Cascata.  Though it is an engineering marvel to have built the course into the side of a mountain, it does not inspire one bit.  It is a nice golf course that I'd probably pay $80 or $90.  The $500 price tag is absolutely absurd but it's Vegas and the course was built for big swinging dicks.

[Mike Sweeney]

Jeff:  You're probably right that I used the wrong standard.  But part of my point was that all of these Best New selections get a huge push because they won, and many of them have stayed near the top while others were overlooked, just because of the original vote.  (Ballyneal is one example of a course which missed out right away, and is still paying for it.  It only finished sixth for that year.)

Actually, when I look at those past best new winners, my reaction is that nearly ALL of them are overrated.  Exceptions for yours and mine and Sand Hills, of course.

Tom,

How do you explain Stonewall starting as high as #60?

[John Moore II]

Jeff:  You're probably right that I used the wrong standard.  But part of my point was that all of these Best New selections get a huge push because they won, and many of them have stayed near the top while others were overlooked, just because of the original vote.  (Ballyneal is one example of a course which missed out right away, and is still paying for it.  It only finished sixth for that year.)

Actually, when I look at those past best new winners, my reaction is that nearly ALL of them are overrated.  Exceptions for yours and mine and Sand Hills, of course.

Tom, I think there are a lot of courses on there that are not overrated. Is Bandon Dunes overrated? And we know that at least as some time or the other you, personally, didn't think Shadow Creek was overrated, having rated it a 9 in the CG.

But I think so much of these best new lists depend on how much the club is willing to advertise and and shake enough hands to get the raters to come on the site. And did Ballyneal really want the major press related to Best New? I know Brad Tufts has told me that when he worked at Myopia Hunt they didn't want raters and they barely got enough raters out in a given year to keep themselves in the top 25 best-in-state rankings for Golf Digest. Is Ballyneal the same way? And does it really matter what some rating says?

[Mark Pritchett]

John,

I think for most the ratings matter, big time.  It would be interesting to check out the marketing materials of ranked courses and how see just how much they flout their rankings.   I would imagine very few public or private eschew using them in some form or fashion.  Mentions in print ads, member prospectus booklets, certificates framed on the pro shop/club house wall, etc.  Sycamore Hills for one has "Top 100" hats, I guess other courses/clubs do as well. 

Even though most courses/clubs modestly say they really don't care about "rankings" I think the opposite is the norm, though few would admit it. 

At the end of the day who wouldn't want to be recognized as a stand out course. 

Mark