News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
The Minikahda Club, Ross restoration
« on: April 24, 2003, 08:52:03 AM »
I just spent a few days touring the restoration of a great Ross et al course in Minneapolis. Ron Prichard is doing the restoration and it will be finished by the beginning of September. Most of the dirt moving is done now.This fine course has hosted the Open, both Amateurs, Walker Cup and Curtis Cup. The greens are being enlarged back to Ross lines. A great many bunkers are being addded but not all. The tees are being squared off. 200 yards is being added. 8 is still going the opposite direction from when Ross did it. Several hundred Trees were removed. It is a great piece of land and a fine routing. I love the par 3's and 5's. The short par 4's are wonderful. but the course lacks real strong par 4's. The routing is great and the green complexes  will blow you away.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:04 PM by -1 »

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Minikahda Club, Ross restoration
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2003, 11:40:43 AM »
hmm not much interest in this one. It is a great course and will be better after the restoration. Has anyone played it?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Bye

Re: The Minikahda Club, Ross restoration
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2003, 11:54:54 AM »
Why would they do earth moving on a Ross renovation?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Minikahda Club, Ross restoration
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2003, 12:08:34 PM »
There have been several renovations in the past that changed the course. This is a restoration and moving dirt to bring the course back to what it was.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Minikahda Club, Ross restoration
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2003, 12:16:22 PM »
John:

Read your post and will comment when I have time.  Minnesota has a lot of great courses.  Biggest weakness of Minikahda may be hole sequencing; it finishes with four par 4s, none over 400.  Jumble the holes in a different order and you have Interlachen.

Some excellent par 3s, including #8 and #3.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Minikahda Club, Ross restoration
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2003, 01:26:59 PM »
John great observation. I felt the lack of real strong 4's hurt the course. The green complexes will make them all good holes and 18 seems to be a very good hole.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

JAHogan

Re: The Minikahda Club, Ross restoration
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2003, 06:42:25 PM »
I have played Minikahda a number of times.  It is a fun course that puts a big premium on accuracy.  I hope that part of the renovation will include removal of some trees that really pinch the already tight fairways.  Member friends tell me they are adding some length to a couple of the par 4s.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Daryl "Turboe" Boe

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Minikahda Club, Ross restoration
« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2003, 06:58:01 PM »
I have always wanted to try to play Minikahda and met a contact to do so, but have not gotten back out to Gods country much lately to get this done.  Hopefully this will give me more of a reason now.

Please post any pictures or more details that you have.

Speaking of Minnesota gotta run now and get the incense burning and get the live chicken to sacrifice before the Lakers take on those cheatin' Timberwolves again tonight in Game 3.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Instagram: @thequestfor3000

"Time spent playing golf is not deducted from ones lifespan."

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm."

John_D._Bernhardt

Re: The Minikahda Club, Ross restoration
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2003, 09:01:09 PM »
they took out several hundred trees. It is a good course with great holes but just lacking a few long 4's
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jeff Shelman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Minikahda Club, Ross restoration
« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2003, 01:35:43 AM »
According to a member I know there, they're also restoring the bunkers to their original design as well and updating sprinklers, etc.

I've only played the course one time (more than a decade ago), but I drive past it all the time. It's a great old course. And while we have weather issues here, we also have a pretty damn fine collection of golf courses here including five that have hosted majors.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: The Minikahda Club, Ross restoration
« Reply #10 on: April 25, 2003, 03:46:49 AM »
"According to a member I know there, they're also restoring the bunkers to their original design"

I wonder what happened to that rpurd character? I'm fairly certain somehow he'll be able to find a few disgruntled Minidahda members having lunch at the next table who will claim Ron Prichard will not only destroy Minikahda's Ross bunkering but is in the process of destroying bunkering all over the middle of the country just as he appears to be in the Northeast.

And then when asked to please document why he or they would say such a thing will proceed to castigate everyone in sight for asking him such a rude and forward question!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

michael_j_fay

Re: The Minikahda Club, Ross restoration
« Reply #11 on: April 25, 2003, 05:40:26 AM »
There have been a number of comments on Prichard interpretation of Ross bunkering, as well as a lot of criticism.
Where I have reviewed Ron's work the bunkers looked very much in the style of Ross but there were playability issues.  
The most common criticism has been that the ball hits the mounding in the front of the bunker and stays there. This appears to be a construction issue.

When was the Open at Minikahda?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Minikahda Club, Ross restoration
« Reply #12 on: April 25, 2003, 06:41:06 AM »
Michael Fay:

Chick Evans won the Open at Minikahda with 7 clubs.  The Minnesota chapter of the Evans Foundation (Western Golf) contests an annual event where players dress in throwback jerseys and play with only 7 clubs to pay homage to the feat.  The Minnesota Golf Association may run it, with funds going to WGA.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Minikahda Club, Ross restoration
« Reply #13 on: April 25, 2003, 06:58:27 AM »
The Open was held there in 1916. That was the year Ross redid the course. Williw Watson/Robert foulis did the original work in 1898. It is interesting to hear the bunkering comment. They look great with the sand at the bottom and grass faces. The sticking in the face effect looks as if it could happen here too. Hmm I wonder if maintenance can solve this potential concern.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:04 PM by -1 »

Doug Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Minikahda Club, Ross restoration
« Reply #14 on: April 25, 2003, 09:06:03 AM »
I've had the good fortune to play Minikahda annually the past three years and it's a fine Ross course that will be even better when the Prichard restoration is done. The course has some wonderful greensites and a fine routing over rolling terrain. Ross's use of the ridges horizontally to the line of play is really interesting (eg on the par 5 4th), and his high to low to high design style is evident at such terrific holes as the par 3 3rd and the long par 4 2d. Unfortunately, three Ross holes were lost to highway construction many years ago and replaced by substandard par 4s (15, 16 and 17), which detract from the overall result. I played Minikahda last July when some of the many many trees they're removing had already been removed but none of the other work had been done, and the improvement was evident.

Good story that I recounted last July: I happened to spot a gentleman standing off to the side of the par 3 6th green with a notebook in his hand. So I wandered over to see what he was doing. He said he was working on the restoration and making some notes and sketches. I said, "Do you know Ron Prichard?" He said "I am Ron Prichard!" So we proceeded to have a very nice chat about the restoration he's doing there at Minikahda.  Unprompted, Ron asked if I new about GolfClubAtlas and I said, "Of course, that's how I know all about you!" He mentioned an upcoming soiree with TE Paul and others. Ron's a real fine gentleman, and I enjoyed meeting him. I'm looking forward to seeing Minikahda after Ron's work is done. It promises to be a jewel.

Tiger: A member told me this week the work would be done by the end of June--are you sure it won't be till September? There will be some unhappy members (and at least one unhappy visitor who's supposed to play ther in July  ;) ) if it isn't finished by the end of June.

All The Best,
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Twitter: @Deneuchre

Doug Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Minikahda Club, Ross restoration
« Reply #15 on: April 25, 2003, 09:09:56 AM »
Another good story about Minikahda:

Minikahda was the scene of a major "grudge match" between Bobby Jones and Chick Evans that had a profound impact on both men. Here's a recount of this event and its repercussions, from a book by Curt Sampson called "The Masters":

"But Jones protected a secret, too: the game had ceased to be all sunshine. The more he succeeded, in fact, the less he enjoyed the whole adventure. More friends bet increasing amounts on him to win and were decreasingly shy about telling him of their wagers. His galleries grew exponentially each year. "With his fans--and he played in championships when spectators could reach out and touch him--Jones' patience was monumental," wrote Charles Price in his 1986 book, A Golf Story. "He took them all in good-natured stride--favor-seekers, storytellers, party-crashers, name-droppers, social opportunists, self-promoters, kissin' cousins, drunks, and other assorted pests." Jones suffered stomach pains and occasionally burst into tears in private, but only his intimate friends--Keeler, Rice, and the Colonel--knew about it. While Bobby hid the effects of the mounting pressure and uninvited interaction, the Colonel grew so nervous that he often couldn't watch his son's tournaments and relied on word-of-mouth reports from the battlefield. Bobby could hardly have missed his father's agitation. Another clue that big-time golf was becoming a big-time drag for Jones was. his atypical spat with another competitor, Chick Evans.

   Their feud came to a head during the finals of the U.S. Amateur in August 1927. Jones versus Evans drew tremendous interest; if the planets aligned correctly, Chick might actually beat Bobby. The match took place at The Minikahda Club in Minneapolis, where Evans had won the U.S. Open eleven summers before. A special train brought scores of Evans boosters up from his hometown, Chicago.

   Sparks often fly in the hand-to-hand combat of match play, and any number of things might have set Evans off. Perhaps Chick resented Bob's breeding and relative wealth or his success. Maybe he disliked the precise part in Jones's hair. Evans sold milk, wholesale, to restaurants and institutions and had a salesman's grin and showmanship and memory of first names. Jones, on the other hand, maintained a polite reserve. After muttering privately about Bobby for years, Evans went public with his complaints in an Associated Press interview, which was published widely on his seventy-third birthday, July 18, 1963.

   Jones clobbered Evans 8 and 7 in their big match. But "it wasn't the beating so much as the way it was done," Evans said. "On the first tee, Jones told me I had teed my ball in front of the markers. Later he called me for putting my finger into the grass.

   "On what became the last hole of our match, I putted two inches from the hole. I thought he might concede the two-inch putt. ... I looked at him and he just stood there, about a yard from me, and stared at me. I went up to my ball, and when I put my putter head down, it touched the ball.

   "I looked up at Jones. `The ball didn't move,' I said. `It sure did,' Jones replied." Game, set, match Mr. Jones. Evans congratulated him sarcastically.

   Jones, Evans said, used twenty-two clubs to his own seven (fourteen clubs were not the maximum allowable until 193 and thus "developed his game with his clubs rather than his skull." The best part of Jones's game "was his ability to sink long putts. He had to, because from fifty yards out he was pitiful." Evans also hinted at flaws in Jones's character, from getting to be too big for his britches to dishonesty about his status as an amateur.

   Jones responded gently. "Mildly amusing," he told the AP. "If he really meant to say these things, then I'm truly sorry he said them." His private reaction contained a lot more heat. Evans's accusations were "tripe," Jones wrote in a letter to United States Golf Association executive director Joseph Dey four days after the Evans interview was published. Jones played the first nine holes in thirty-one and began the second nine with two threes. This put him six up; Chick didn't have the wherewithal that day to make up such a huge deficit to the best player in the world.

   Jones contradicted everything Evans said, especially his version of the contentious ending to their match. Already beaten, Jones told Dey, Chick "preferred being the apparent victim of a misfortune to playing the long twelfth hole up the hill away from the clubhouse.

   "I do not recall that I have ever said anything about this thing before, and certainly do not intend at this moment, or ever, so far as I know, to make public any of these circumstances."

   Whatever the particulars of the spat, Jones had an enemy, and he knew it. And though he obviously thrived in the formalized battle of a golf tournament--as he would prove for all time in 1930--conflict upset him terribly. Grantland Rice described him as having "the face of an angel and the temper of a timberwolf." Just before or soon after the Evans match, Jones decided to retire from tournament golf. He had tired of controlling the wolf."



« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Twitter: @Deneuchre

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Minikahda Club, Ross restoration
« Reply #16 on: April 25, 2003, 10:21:14 AM »
John,

"Both" Amateurs?  I didn't realize there were only two.   :-[


FYI,

Here's the thread from the AOTD #91 of Minikahda, complete with the same Jones-Evans story by Doug (actually two aerials, taken at different times):

I just saw this course by plane 9 days ago coming in to land.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/YaBB.cgi?board=GD1&action=display&num=1020689923
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:04 PM by -1 »

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Minikahda Club, Ross restoration
« Reply #17 on: April 25, 2003, 10:21:48 AM »
Great recount, Doug.

I have my own Minikahda story.  It was 1986 and Interlachen was hosting the U.S. Senior Amateur, eventually won by Ocala car dealer Bo Williams.  The USGA officials were looking to play and went over to Minikahda with some of us caddies from Interlachen.  I caddied for Billy Jo Patton, who no longer competed in such events and was wearing the blue blazer this week.

"Fourteen," he said to his playing partners.  We were probably on the 12th hole or so and he pointed across the property and was referring to the 14th hole.  He hadn't said much all day, so his voice was a surprise to all.

"Huh?" was the collective group response.

"That's 14," and he began to recount an amazing comeback he had made 30-some years earlier in the Walker Cup.  Down 6 or so at lunch, his swashbuckling style brought the match closer throughout the afternoon round.  A birdie from the wrong fairway on 14 was the highlight in his successful comeback.  It was pretty neat to see a rather quiet man all of a sudden offer up a story about a place he hadn't been for almost two score.

I later caddied for him once more when the 1993 Walker Cup was played, this time at Woodhill.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Minikahda Club, Ross restoration
« Reply #18 on: April 25, 2003, 01:33:28 PM »
Doug, The Pro told me the course should be in great shape by the beginning of September. I do not think they will be through with the grassing till June. The Ladies and Men's US Amateur John lol.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Doug Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Minikahda Club, Ross restoration
« Reply #19 on: May 16, 2003, 08:23:41 AM »
Tiger,

I heard yesterday that they're reopening half the course this weekend, and the balance will be done by the end of June. I'm looking forward to posting a report after I play the course in mid-July.

All The Best,
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Twitter: @Deneuchre

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Minikahda Club, Ross restoration
« Reply #20 on: May 16, 2003, 07:39:36 PM »
I played Minikahda before the restoration.  

I will be visiting it next weekend and plan to make a report here.

I look forward to the work by Ron Prichards and Co. here! ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Minikahda Club, Ross restoration
« Reply #21 on: May 17, 2003, 09:26:56 AM »
I played Minikahda once, in 1970, and even then I thought it was the tightest course I'd ever played, and can't remember having played a tighter course since. No tears shed here for the loss of a couple hundred trees. Otherwise, I loved the course, and I'd love to see it again.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Doug Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Minikahda Club, Ross restoration
« Reply #22 on: May 18, 2003, 08:16:38 PM »

Quote
From what I understand when Ross redesigned this course he retained many of Willie Watson's features. Watson was known for some pretty unique bunkering.

Tom, I don't know enough about Willie Watson to comment. Could you expand on "pretty unique bunkering?" I sure can see Ross there, especially the routing and greensites--a number of high to low to high holes, excellent greensites eg par 3 #3 and the skyline #9.

Rick, some of the trees had already been removed when I played there last July and the playing corridors were much better with a lot more to come. There were some abandoned  bunkers lost in the rough or behind trees that have been restored.

Licking my chops to see this one soon...

All The Best,    
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Twitter: @Deneuchre

Doug Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Minikahda Club, Ross restoration
« Reply #23 on: May 19, 2003, 11:01:42 AM »
Tom,

The current 13th is a par 5 with a small stream cutting across the fairway about 90 yards from the green. It doesn't have any of the features you mention. Maybe the 13th hole to which you refer is a different one now but I don't recall anything like the bunkering you describe anywhere. The pre-restoration bunkering seemed pretty traditional. Perhaps the more interesting bunkering you describe will reappear through the restoration. I'll look for it and let you know, or perhaps someone will be in touch with Ron Prichard and can ask him.

All The Best,
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Twitter: @Deneuchre

TEPaul

Re: The Minikahda Club, Ross restoration
« Reply #24 on: May 20, 2003, 01:37:20 AM »
Ron Prichard has said many times he's a big fan of GOLFCLUBATLAS.com. He reads it with interest when he has the time, which isn't often. He doesn't contribute on here because he apparently doesn't like to type or doesn't type well.

But I have his number and he doesn't mind at all being very forthcoming about the work he's doing. Such was the case with the Aronimink restoration.

I don't know Minikahda at all except by reputation but I believe in the course of one long telephone conversation Ron did mention that he was very high on Minikahda.

As to important questions such as exactly how Ron Prichard restores bunkering, such as Ross bunkering, there's a lot in that question and the answers are many of the detail things most of us should know and understand. Sometimes, I feel, as does Ron Prichard, there're things that go on out in the field during restoration that some of us aren't aware of---things that sometimes might make some of us question certain decisions.

I think Ron welcomes those questions and is willing with the answers. Generally, I think Ron feels that some of the criticism of some of the things he may have done on various restorations basically involve a failure to understand some of the architectural necessities that sometimes go on in the field structurally and construction-wise that some on here just aren't aware of.

Aronimink's bunker restoration may have been a good example although one that was highly unusual for the simple reason most all Ross's bunker on that course had been completely redesigned over the years so Ron didn't really have much of anything on the ground to go by and ended up using a set of really good Ross plans that may not have been built (bunkers that is).

To me, Ron Prichard is one of the best, if not the best restoration architect as far as really delving into the details of classic course architecture, the whys and wherefors of it all, in other words. As far as having a real dedicated interest in all things to do with the history of classic architecture it'd be hard to find an architect that's more intersted or knowledgeable on that subject of the history of it all than Ron.

Ron is also pretty insistant on doing the right historical thing on these restorations as far as can be done and as far as a club is willing. If something costs a bit more to maintain due to historic accuracy Ron will tell the club to go for it in the name of quality architecture and historic accuracy. The downside to Ron restoration work, in my opinion, is he's a one man company--he has a lot going on and is sometimes more at the mercy of sometimes unknown shapers and contractors than other architectural companies that keep an associate on site throughout restorations. But he makes up for that by his insistance on certain things. This is at least the story on plenty of feedback I've heard from courses that have gone through a Prichard restoration.

In a nutshell, I'd call Ron Prichard a real purist in restoration architecture but one who has to and does deal with the realities of "in the field" restoration architecture. And when an architect does that and has to do that sometimes he might get accused of being too "interpretive."

But the point here is Ron seems more than willing to explain to any of us why that's sometimes necessary--and better yet he's willing to get into some real detail of the reasons why. The reason he's willing to do all that is because he admires architectural analysts and those interested in truly learning about the nuts and bolts of architecture and restoration architecture and particularly the little things that go on out in the field that most of us aren't familiar with or conversant with. So, all in all, hearing from Ron on some of these questions should be and could be a great education into the nuts and bolts and the realities of restoration architecture.

The thing Michael J. Fay said about the playability of some of Ron's restored Ross bunkering and things such as balls getting caught up on the front faces is not something Ron would want to hear. That's not the way he believes balls should react off the faces of Ross bunkering---that's not the way Ross wanted it (as Ron believes he understands Ross) and it's not the way Ron wants it.

In bunker construction--or say Ross bunker restoration construction there's a fairly definite architectural formula for constructing those bunkers to play the way they were intended to---things such as the "angle of repose" and the necessary architectural slope of the sand running away from the bunker face. There're a number of reasons balls might be hanging on those faces--maybe some reasons that simply have to do with agronomics but that's not supposed to happen and if it is I'm sure Ron wants to hear about it and explain why at least.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:05 PM by -1 »