Rules of engagement

[Tom MacWood]

TEP has suggested mentioning or discussing Merion is now off limits because many will be attending the Walker Cup later this year. This may be a good time to identify the other clubs we should avoid discussing. Is there a list?

[PCCraig]

It's not a particular course or club that's the proplem, but the people "discussing" them that need new rules of engagement.

[TEPaul]

Tom:

I have an agreement with Ran Morrissett to basically stop posting on that Merion subject, not on Golfclubatlas. I believe David Moriarty may have the same agreement but he can and should certainly speak for himself on that, if he wants to.

This new thread you just started isn't specifically about Merion but my advice to you would be to get in touch with Ran Morrissett about this particular thread and its subject you just started and see how he might feel about it for starters.

Would you at least agree that might be a valid and benefical suggestion for some or perhaps most of us on here and for this website?



"It's not a particular course or club that's the proplem, but the people "discussing" them that need new rules of engagement."

Pat Craig:

I feel you are absolutely right about that. Not just engagement with each other but with clubs that become subjects of our discussions on here, particularly clubs that become the direct and specific focus of having the accuracy of their histories debated specifically on here via things like permanent In My Opinion pieces on this website. I think we can expect a really good In My Opinion piece on this overall and truly important subject from one of the most experienced amongst us in that area.

[Tom MacWood]

Tom:

I have an agreement with Ran Morrissett to basically stop posting on that Merion subject, not on Golfclubatlas. I believe David Moriarty may have the same agreement but he can and should certainly speak for himself on that, if he wants to.

This new thread you just started isn't specifically about Merion but my advice to you would be to get in touch with Ran Morrissett about this particular thread and its subject you just started and see how he might feel about it for starters.

Would you at least agree that might be a valid and benefical suggestion for some or perhaps most of us on here and for this website?



"It's not a particular course or club that's the proplem, but the people "discussing" them that need new rules of engagement."

Pat Craig:

I feel you are absolutely right about that. Not just engagement with each other but with clubs that become subjects of our discussions on here, particularly clubs that become the direct and specific focus of having the accuracy of their histories debated specifically on here via things like permanent In My Opinion pieces on this website. I think we can expect a really good In My Opinion piece on this overall and truly important subject from one of the most experienced amongst us in that area.

TEP
That makes sense. I thought we were all prohibited from discussing it. Was it David's long laundry list message the other day that upset you that was the last straw?

[Jim_Kennedy]

The problem doesn't lie with  ....."clubs that become subjects of our discussions on here, particularly clubs that become the direct and specific focus of having the accuracy of their histories debated specifically on here via things like permanent In My Opinion pieces on this website"........., it lies with an absence of reasoned rebuttal.

[Anthony Gray]

  Dear Tom MacWood,

  Please let the Merion thread reach 100 pages before doing something drastic. Many on here could simply not handle the disapointment right now. It would be emotionally cripling at the present time. Don't turn off the lights when the party is going.


   Sincerly,

   Garland Bayley

[Garland Bayley]

Dear Tom MacWood,

Don't let that no count, handicap cheating, mooching, blimp of a poor excuse for a man, Garland Bayley tell you what to do or not do.

Anthony Gray

[Adam Clayman]

Anthony, Your contribution to the subject of golf course architecture is simply immeasurable. Thank You.

[Garland Bayley]

Anthony, Your contribution to the subject of golf course architecture is simply immeasurable. Thank You.

Thank you Adam,

I appreciate how you enjoy my ability to keep things on an even keel.

Anthony Gray

[TEPaul]

"The problem doesn't lie with  ....."clubs that become subjects of our discussions on here, particularly clubs that become the direct and specific focus of having the accuracy of their histories debated specifically on here via things like permanent In My Opinion pieces on this website"........., it lies with an absence of reasoned rebuttal."



JimK:

A most interesting remark and one that may need a good deal of pondering and thought. It would seem to me, though, to very much depend upon from whose perspective one looks at it-----eg from the perspective of those on here with no connection at all to the subject club or from the persepective of the club that becomes the subject on here.

As with all things in life, I guess, the best policy and approach would probably be to look at it as well as it can be looked at FROM BOTH PERSPECTIVES!

[Tom MacWood]

TEP
We are still waiting for you explanation. How does an entire phrase (as to the lay-out of the East Course) disappear from your version of the A. Wilson letter? And after weeks of you, Mike and others quoting 'they', all of sudden you tell us the correct version should be 'we'?

Also how do you explain Mike quoting from the 4/19 minutes before you or anyone else? Did you or Wayne give him the info?

[TEPaul]

""TEP
That makes sense. I thought we were all prohibited from discussing it. Was it David's long laundry list message the other day that upset you that was the last straw?"


Tom:

From discussing what? Merion or this new subject of yours called "Rules of engagement?" The title of your thread is "Rules of Engagment." Do you want to discuss what those might be for researching and writing about clubs and their histories or are you just looking for some list of clubs you think some on here may think should not be discussed? I'd like to know which it is. I don't feel there should ever be any list of clubs that should not be discussed on here but I do think that the way Merion HAS BEEN discussed on here needs to be looked at very carefully to consider what it means to not just those clubs like it but to this website too. I think the administrator feels the same, at this point, but you should probably discuss it with him, as I just did.

I see no reason not to discuss any club if we can go about it in the proper way and I don't think much of anything that you two have done from the very beginning with Merion is the proper way at all to go about it.



"Was it Moriarty's long laundry list message the other day that upset me and that you call the last straw?"




First of all, I never get that upset about these things. I see no reason to actually get upset. I certainly do have my opinions, though, and it may've been that laundry list post or some preceding it that was the reason for me discussing this with the administrator. That long post wasn't about Merion or its history, it was all about how me and Wayne Morrison were doctoring and altering information and documents from Merion and withholding varous things to promote or preserve what you think is our point or point of view about its architect and architectural history. It was ALSO a pretty scary and REALLY LONG list of reasons why Moriarty thinks both he and his essay have been treated unfairly by the two of us. It was just a long and complete list of what he's been saying on here for about a year!

We've both suggested to him a number of times that if he really feels that way he should just establish his own working relationship with Merion as we have and form his own opinions of it that way, as we have. I see no reason whatsoever, to EVER NOT create a working relationship with a subject, their material, people, whatever. But I certainly am reminded that you think otherwise because you have articulated that on this website a number of times, plus with some of your subjects, Crump and Merion you never remotely did that. I understand what you're saying too; I just very much disagree with it as a benefical or correct approach to any subject one is interested in understanding and accurately portraying.  

[Jason McNamara]

I look forward to a discussion of Merion *today* as it relates to the Walker Cup.  If it takes a turn from there and the needless goading returns, then my signature will again apply.

[Tom MacWood]

TEP
This thread was started because you suggested to me and others that we should not post anything about the M-word, with the Walker Cup coming up and all. I suspect, after David's long laundry list, you contacted Ran and requested the thread be deleted because of this line:

"At one point their behavior got so out of line that TEPaul told Tom MacWood a series of LIES about fictional emails he had received from Rand Jerris and other officials at the USGA, where they supposedly said the same sort of nasty things about MacWood's research...."

The last time this incident was brought up on GCA you demanded that thread be deleted as well. By the way I'm still waiting for you to forward those emails.

I don't believe anyone said Wayne doctored any thing. Are you saying he was involved too? I think this whole thing can be cleared up if you simply explain what happened. How did the entire phrase ('as to the lay-out of the East Course') disappear from your version of the A. Wilson letter? And after weeks of you, Mike and others quoting 'they', all of sudden you tell us the correct version should be 'we'? And how do you explain Mike quoting from the 4/19 minutes before you or anyone else?

[Mike_Young]

Sorry I have missed all these Merion threads but I just had a question.    But speaking of the Walker Cup being held there I just wondered if they allowed carts?  And if so would they be in line to host the Rider Cup or are they limited to Walker Cup events since they just allow walking?   

[Anthony Gray]

Anthony, Your contribution to the subject of golf course architecture is simply immeasurable. Thank You.

  Adam,

  Does this mean we can finally spend some time together on the links?

   Anthony

[TEPaul]

"TEP
This thread was started because you suggested to me and others that we should not post anything about the M-word, with the Walker Cup coming up and all. I suspect, after David's long laundry list, you contacted Ran and requested the thread be deleted because of this line:"


Tom:

I didn't say that. I never wrote that. I never wrote anything like that. Go back and read what I wrote; quote it, whatever. I said we talked about various ways to stop the way that thread was going. Deleting it or locking it was mentioned and thought to be a bad idea. Just asking the main protagonists to stop posting on the thread seemed like a better idea. I think the main protagonists are me and Cirba and you and Moriarty. Those are the only ones where the real adversity seems to be that reflect badly on those participants (protagonists) and reflect badly on the site whose reputation may be suffering because of it at some clubs including Merion. That's why I think the four of us should stop and it very much seems like the administrator does too. The rest can go on with it but our feeling was that without those four main participants the thread would just die out on its own.

I'd consider answering some of your other questions on that last post but honestly Tom, I'm not sure I see the point of it as you seem so incapable of even reading or understanding what anyone actually says to you. I never said a thing about asking everyone to stop posting, just those four main protaganists mentioned. And I never said a thing about deleting the thread. Again that or locking it was mentioned and thought by both to be a really bad idea after dicussing that. So don't say I recommended that thread be deleted, I never said anything like that and if you can't understand that from what I did say then something really is wrong with your ability to understand what people say and write. There's no reason for me to even respond to your questions if you carry on that way, is there?

I think some discussion about "Rules of Engagement" would be a good idea on here if it means a discussion about how the participants of this website who research and write about the histories of club's do that. But I don't want to talk about any list of clubs that should not be talked about on here because I don't believe that at all unless it turns into what these threads on Merion have turned into with other clubs.

And I definitely don't want this thread to be just another thread on Merion. If it is I'm not posting on it anymore bacause I have an agreement with the administrator not to post on that subject; at least not now and that's what I intend to do----not post on that subject of Merion that you and Moriarty began so long ago.

[DMoriarty]

Below is the post that caused TEPaul to run to Ran to try and shut me down. Again.  It is a little long, but for those who haven't paid attention for the past six years (who could blame you) it will provide some necessary insight into the kind of things that have gone on during this discussion.

The post:

I've been doing my best to keep this conversation moving in a positive direction, which is the same thing as saying I have been trying to ignore everything that TEPaul has written, but one of his mantras demands a response, if only because it has been repeated so many times that it appears to have taken hold with some of those who really ought to know better.

TEPaul keeps questioning why I didn't go to Merion before my essay came out and is using this bullshit to repeatedly try to undermine my credibility.   This is not only offensive and downright delusional, it is pretty goddamned creepy and pretty-near patholigical when you consider the role TEPaul and Wayne played in my decision not to go to Merion Golf Club.   TEPaul would apparently have us believe that this drama started when I appeared out of nowhere and posted my essay, but we all know that there is a long backstory in which he and Wayne  were very much involved.  

Long before my essay came out I figured out that Merion's old club records were in storage at MCC (TEPaul had long speculated they were lost in a flood or fire or something)  I attempted to access those documents but was unsuccessful.   As for Merion Golf Club, I considered going to them but thought better of it for a number of reasons . . .

SOME OF THE REASONS I DID NOT GO TO MGC BEFORE MY ESSAY CAME OUT

I.  Wayne and TEPaul made it perfectly clear that this would not be productive.

1.  So far as I knew Wayne and TEPaul were the defacto keepers of Merion's history.  At least that is they they portrayed themselves around here.   And based on their representations and behavior, I determined that going to Merion would be rather unproductive, to put it mildly.

2.  For years Wayne and TEPaul had mounted a campaign to shut down all research or even discussion about Merion's history, other than the version they tried to sell us.  How many times did they tell us that they had all the information?  How many times did Wayne warn us against questioning or even discussing the topic?   Remember TEPaul's open campaign to run me off the website?  Remember his "possee" he put together to harrass me at every turn?   Remember Wayne's vulgar insults and name calling?  Remember him calling me a liar and and idiot for merely correcting mistaken understanding about the length of the 10th hole?    

3. Both TEPaul and Wayne repeatedly and explicitly informed me, in private and on the website, that Merion wanted nothing to do with me.   Wayne told me to "f**k off" among other things.  TEPaul called me every name in the book, and even made up a fake Canadian researcher in an attempt to convince me to send him all my posts to vet them before I posted!

4. TEPaul even went so far as to make up detailed LIES about specific conversations he had had with various officials at Merion, including the Chairs of the Committee relevant to these issues.   He repeatedly informed me that he had specifically discussed my research with these gentleman and they were disgusted and upset by my research and wanted nothing to do with me or my research, and that in their eyes my research was embarrassing myself.  

5. TEPaul also informed me that Wayne HATED me like no other, and that he would never have anything to do with me or my research and he would see to it that Merion never had anything to do with it.  Wayne's own emails and posts on here confirmed this.  

6.  At one point their behavior got so out of line that TEPaul told Tom MacWood a series of LIES about fictional emails he had received from Rand Jerris and other officials at the USGA, where they supposedly said the same sort of  nasty things about MacWood's research; very similar to the LIES TEPaul had told me about what the Chairs at Merion were saying about my research.  

The list goes well beyond this, but in short TEPaul and Wayne did everything they could to STOP my research and  MACWOOD's research, and to convince us that Merion (and the USGA) wanted nothing to do with us.  LIES, namecalling, veiled threats, harassing emails and telephone calls, rude behavior, false rumors, a self proclaimed "Philadelphia Possee" to run us off the board and make us stop.  These "gentlemen" stopped at nothing to try and stop us. For TEPaul to now claim that I should have gone to Merion is patholigical and downright creepy

_____________________________________________________

II. But but beyond this, , his claims that I should have gone to Merion are just his latest attempt to discredit me and TomM and to discredit our research and analysis without actually addressing it head on.  An examination of the history shows his real motive.

1. Both TEPaul and Wayne  - the self-appointed keepers of all things Merion - were aware of the nature of my research and analysis BEFORE my essay came out.    

2.  Before I even came back to the site, I informed TEPaul, Wayne, and a number of others that if I came back it was to discuss Merion and related topics, and I even gave then  a laundry list of the types of topics I would discuss.    
  
3.  Patrick and others told TEPaul and Wayne that I was working on an essay that would rewrite much of the early history of Merion East, and both TEPaul and Wayne encouraged (demanded is more like it) that I post it and post it immediately so it could be vetted.   Most of the website chimed in as well.  

4.  NO ONE ONCE SUGGESTED THAT I GO TO MERION BEFORE POSTING IT.   NOT WAYNE. NOT TEPAUL. NOT ANYONE.  TO THE CONTRARY, THERE WERE DAILY DEMANDS THAT I POST MY ESSAY IMMEDIATELY, FINISHED OR NOT, SO THAT IT COULD BE VETTED.  I WAS ACCUSED OF HOLDING OUT, OF WITHHOLDING INFORMATION, OF PLAYING GAMES, OF HAVING ULTERIOR MOTIVES.

5.  TEPaul has repeatedly claimed that he was discussing my Essay with Merion before I even posted it.  Yet apparently not even Merion wanted to look at it before it came out.   Or if they did TEPaul kept that to himself.  

6.   Not even Wayne originally claimed the Essay should have gone to Merion first.  And we had plenty of communication where he could have; while I was explaining to him how the property transactions worked; or various other details not covered in my paper; or when I was providing him with the documents  he requested and directing him to others.   Never a peep.

7.   It was only in retrospect, when more conventional methods of defeating my essay would not prove adequate, that Wayne and TEPaul started this nonsense about how I should have gone to Merion.   Only then did my actions suddenly become so offensive. How convenient yet completely contrived.  .

_____________________________________________________________________________

III.   A few other things to consider:

While my dealings with Merion are none of TEPaul's business (or any of your business, for that matter) I will remind you that my essay relied entirely on public domain material and concerned topics that had been discussed on this website for years.  The only difference with my essay is that I actually did the research and put it all into one coherent piece.
 
I discussed providing Merion with a copy before posting it with some, but was encouraged not to do so because, I was told, Merion would most likely try to stop me from posting it, especially given that they would undoubtedly involve Wayne in the process.   There was no legitimate reason for me not to posting it.  In retrospect, I can see that this was the case.  There would have been no way to keep TEPaul and Wayne out of the process, and with them involved the process was bound to be a real mess, just as it has turned out on here.

Plus, even if I had gone to Merion, nothing would have changed.  By the point I was ready for a draft of my essay to be posted,  I knew everything TEPaul and Wayne knew about the origins of the East course, and a whole lot more.   And I had tried to work with them cooperatively in the past, and that proved impossible, and I was resolved to not getting bogged down again.  So long as TEPaul and Wayne were  running the show regarding Merion's history, one would have to be a fool to think that cooperation would get anyone any closer to the truth.   Unfortunately, they prove this on an almost daily basis.

I mean look at TEPaul's idiotic claim that all I have proven is that the date of the trip was wrong.  Considering how much more we know as a result of my essay and subsequent work, it is delusional, pathetic, and creepy; just like his attempts to shut TomM and me down, just like his lies about what the USGA and Merion had to say about us, and just like his demands that I should have contacted Merion.    Delusional, pathetic, and creepy.

[Edited to bleep profanity]


Wow, that is long.  Unfortunately that's about the half of it.

Please keep the following in mind:
    --  This post was preceded by post after post of TEPaul demanding that I explain why I did not go to Merion before I allowed Ran to post my essay (as well as repeated posts excoriating me for not doing so.)  
    --  Going to Merion Golf Club before hand would NOT have changed anything in my essay.  MGC neither possessed the information on which I relied nor any other information reasonably contradicting it.  I gladly provided them (through Wayne) with all the information on which I relied after my essay came out.  
   --  So far as I know, EVERYTHING in this post is true and accurate.    

I'd be glad to answer or address any questions any of you may have.

[DMoriarty]

To keep things all in one place, this is from the other thread, but it fits in here and address TEPaul's strange attempt to silence dicussion about his funny business with Merion's record, and the unfortunate position in which he as put Merion.

To All:

I am a bit perplexed by TEPaul's latest effort to sweep all of his past behavior under the rug, and even more perplexed with Ran's apparent acquiescence to TEPaul's latest plan to shut up those that disagree with him.   Keep in mind that TEPaul and Wayne hold the key to ending all of this nonsense.  They are the ones who have tried for the past year or so to use the old records to attack to bolster their position and to try to attack me, my essay, and everyone else who might disagree with them.    They are the ones who have given us many different versions of what is supposed to be a direct transcription of the source material.  They are the ones who keep changing the dates and what things say and don't say (the Cuyler letters for example.)   They are the ones who have demanded we accept their representations as fact and have refused to have their arguments vetted or verified.   

In short, they are the ones who have played and continue to play games with the source material, and the ones responsible for where we are today.   And they are the ones who can stop the nonsense by allowing us to vet and verify their arguments.  And the sooner they stop playing games, the sooner we can move on to something more positive and interesting. , like Part II of my essay and a detailed discussion of the lasting impact M&W had on the golf course. 

As for my part, I am trying to keep things positive and moving forward, and to generally ignore TEPaul,  but I will continue to respond when necessary, such as my post above, where I countered his ridiculous yet repeated claims that I should have gone to Merion, despite his and Wayne's tireless efforts to convince me that Merion wanted nothing to do with me.

[Tom MacWood]

"TEP
This thread was started because you suggested to me and others that we should not post anything about the M-word, with the Walker Cup coming up and all. I suspect, after David's long laundry list, you contacted Ran and requested the thread be deleted because of this line:"


Tom:

I didn't say that. I never wrote that. I never wrote anything like that. Go back and read what I wrote; quote it, whatever. I said we talked about various ways to stop the way that thread was going. Deleting it or locking it was mentioned and thought to be a bad idea. Just asking the main protagonists to stop posting on the thread seemed like a better idea. I think the main protagonists are me and Cirba and you and Moriarty. Those are the only ones where the real adversity seems to be that reflect badly on those participants (protagonists) and reflect badly on the site whose reputation may be suffering because of it at some clubs including Merion. That's why I think the four of us should stop and it very much seems like the administrator does too. The rest can go on with it but our feeling was that without those four main participants the thread would just die out on its own.

I'd consider answering some of your other questions on that last post but honestly Tom, I'm not sure I see the point of it as you seem so incapable of even reading or understanding what anyone actually says to you. I never said a thing about asking everyone to stop posting, just those four main protaganists mentioned. And I never said a thing about deleting the thread. Again that or locking it was mentioned and thought by both to be a really bad idea after dicussing that. So don't say I recommended that thread be deleted, I never said anything like that and if you can't understand that from what I did say then something really is wrong with your ability to understand what people say and write. There's no reason for me to even respond to your questions if you carry on that way, is there?

I think some discussion about "Rules of Engagement" would be a good idea on here if it means a discussion about how the participants of this website who research and write about the histories of club's do that. But I don't want to talk about any list of clubs that should not be talked about on here because I don't believe that at all unless it turns into what these threads on Merion have turned into with other clubs.

And I definitely don't want this thread to be just another thread on Merion. If it is I'm not posting on it anymore bacause I have an agreement with the administrator not to post on that subject; at least not now and that's what I intend to do----not post on that subject of Merion that you and Moriarty began so long ago.

TEP
If you prefer not to explain your actions thats your choice. I find it ironic that someone involved in the USGA historical document initiative would be activiely involved in misrepresenting and concealing documents.

[Jim_Kennedy]

TEP,

Perspective is important, and I am sorry to say this, but you and Wayne lost yours. Merion didn't need your protection and it still doesn't. There is nothing in any information that DM  presented that could be construed as damaging to the club or its membership, after all, he is only an outside observer. By contrast, your and Wayne's actions could cause damage because you are both perceived as 'insiders' or representatives of the club, and your trashing of Moriarty's position went way beyond what was necessary.

I would bet that most of Merion's members would brush away DM's thesis as easily as a horse brushes away flies with its tail, you two tied an anvil to that tail.

[John Mayhugh]

TEP,

Perspective is important, and I am sorry to say this, but you and Wayne lost yours. Merion didn't need your protection and it still doesn't. There is nothing in any information that DM  presented that could be construed as damaging to the club or its membership, after all, he is only an outside observer. By contrast, your and Wayne's actions could cause damage because you are both perceived as 'insiders' or representatives of the club, and your trashing of Moriarty's position went way beyond what was necessary.

I would bet that most of Merion's members would brush away DM's thesis as easily as a horse brushes away flies with its tail, you two tied an anvil to that tail.

This may be the best commentary on the discussion of Merion's heritage that I've seen.  Thank you for posting it.

[Jim_Kennedy]

John,
You're welcome, but I wish I didn't feel the need to.

edit: good move! 

p.s. I just had my first slightly nasty PM from Tom Paul. It's too bad that he lowers himself to sniping when someone doesn't think like he does.