Ireland v Scotland ?

[Matt_Ward]

I know this has been touched upon in the past but I have a few friends who are over at The Open this week and will be playing golf next with roughly 10 days to spare. They wanted me to weigh in with staying in Scotland or heading over to Ireland since they have never been to either prior to this trip. Total of six (6) guys and they are real golf nuts.

I explained to them that the very top tier of Irish golf (say the top five) is for me superior to what the very top tier of what you have in Scotland. Not by much mind you -- but superior. I also mentioned to them that the depth of quality Scottish courses exceeds what you have in Ireland. Be curious to know which country those who have visited both would recommend for a first time fling. Do not worry about $$ considerations -- these boys are loaded.

I also suggested to them that playing the remote courses would be a better way to handle things -- faster play and overall less congested. If anyone wants to be so bold to suggest such an itinerary -- which doesn't include massive driving elements -- please feel free to let me know.

I have already suggested to them that heading to the Highlands in Scotland would be a fun way to go -- with Dornoch, Inverness, and then not far away the likes of Royal Aberdeen, Cruden Bay, etc, etc.

[Chip Gaskins]

Fly into Dublin:

Portmarnock
European Club

Drive up to Belfast and stay in Belfast (Bendicts Hotel) what a great city!

Royal County Down on the drive up to Belfast
Royal Portrush and Portstewart same day or spend one night in Portstewart and break it up

Fly direct back to JFK via Belfast.


IF you don't mind a little more driving then fly into Shannon, then drive over to Dublin and continue the above itinerary.

Play
Lahinch
Waterville
Ballybunion
and use the helicopter to get back and forth (i did not do this, too much $$, but it cuts days of scary driving off)

I have done this trip twice actually.  Nothing like it on earth!

[Bill_McBride]

They will lose a whole day getting to Ireland.  Save that for next trip and head for East Lothian and Fife!

[Padraig Dooley]

For getting to Ireland from Turnberry, there is a ferry from Troon and Stranraer to Belfast, could play Portrush the same day as leaving Scotland then down to RCD and onwards to Dublin picking up Baltray, The Island, Portmarnock and The European.

Also a Ryanair from Prestwick to Shannon and Lahinch, Doonbeg, Ballybunion, Tralee, Waterville aren't too far away.

 

[Bill_McBride]

For getting to Ireland from Turnberry, there is a ferry from Troon and Stranraer to Belfast, could play Portrush the same day as leaving Scotland then down to RCD and onwards to Dublin picking up Baltray, The Island, Portmarnock and The European.

Also a Ryanair from Prestwick to Shannon and Lahinch, Doonbeg, Ballybunion, Tralee, Waterville aren't too far away.

 

So Paddy, do you work for the Chamber of Commerce?   

We had such a great time we had at the Walker Cup in 2007 and at Portrush, Ardglass and Castlerock afterward, great golfing country, hope to make my first trip to the Republic next.

[Jason Walker]

Matt-
As a Jersey guy I'm dying to meet you at some point.

I'm actually trying to pull off a similar trip.  Heading over to Glasgow tomorrow evening, have golf and British Open planned through Sunday, playing Turnberry Monday AM (don't ask, I'll take lots of pics) and Western Gailes that afternoon.  We're taking the Stranraer ferry over to Belfast Tuesday morning and playing RCD that afternoon.   We're then doing N. Ire and Dublin Weds and Thurs before flying back from Dublin Friday.

I've done the West coast and the reality is -- as someone mentioned earlier -- combining this area with Scotland without a helicpoter almost becomes silly.

[Matt_Ward]

Appreciate all the proposed trip outlines but the point of my thread is that if forced to choose between Ireland v Scotland -- is it not fair to say that Scotland has the greater consistency of course quality once you go past the first 5-7 courses ?

My buddies are still up in the air -- likely they will be heading to the Highlands and possibly Cruden Bay and Royal Aberdeen after The Open.

Any oither stellar off-the-radar courses worth a peak either there or on the way from Turnberry ?

[Rich Goodale]

Matt

You are right that it is hard to choose between the top 5 in Ireland or Scotland:

Ireland:  County Down, Portrush, Ballybunion, Portmarnock, Lahinch

Scotland:  Muirfield, Carnoustie, Turnberry, Dornoch, Old Course

...and also right that Ireland drops off much more rapidly after these 5 than does Scotland.  If they take the Glasgow-->Aberdeen option, they can play on the direct route between the two:

Prestwick
Western Gailes
Troon
Carnoustie
plus a lot of other lesser known gems if they are so inclined

In Aberdeen they should not forget Murcar, which is as good as Royal Aberdeen or Cruden Bay.

Then, if they want to stray further, it is a ~3 hour drive to Dornoch , and the very interesting Castle Stuart along the way.

Golf in Ireland is fantastic, but not for these guys under these circumstances.

Slainte

Rich

[Melvyn Morrow]

Matt

If it’s the numbers you want then Scotland has more in what most golfers are looking for but do not dismiss Ireland. Many of their courses are enjoyable and still offer a great challenge to the modern golfer. I suppose if one wanted to one could argue that many Scottish players settled and looked after the Irish courses in the late 19th& early 20th Century adding their mark to these course.

There is only I believe one way to enjoy golf in GB&I and that is by carefully researching the courses and putting them in regional blocks noting travelling times between regions/courses.

Golfing Holidays here are generally time limited so if you have 14 days you do not want to waste two or three days travelling plus coming and going to the airport. To play Ireland means you stay in Ireland, as distance, roads and courses are not next door to each other. In this scenario, it is wise to play 36 hole at each course and relax enjoying the experience. I never understand why golfers compromise a visit to our shores by trying to cram in just too many courses. The trick IMHO is to take numerous trips over here, play regions and enjoy yourself. One round of golf on our courses is verging on criminal neglect of ones golfing education. If a links course you miss the magic that the wind and weather can achieve, by just playing one round.

Golf trips are not cheap, so please make the most of them. I firmly believe you need to have gained at least an understanding of the courses you play before moving on. The only way is a minimum of two rounds per course IMHO. I think quality is more important when it come to golf than quantity, but then that same theme echoes down the years of my life too.   

Just my opinion, for what its worth.

Melvyn

[Alister Matheson]

Fly in to aberdeen and play the royal then murcar ,cruden bay ,fraserburgh,moray,nairn,castle stewart,royal dornoch and last but not least brora

[Rich Goodale]

Fly in to aberdeen and play the royal then murcar ,cruden bay ,fraserburgh,moray,nairn,castle stewart,royal dornoch and last but not least brora

Ally

How could you forget Peterheid?

Rich

[Matt_Ward]

Rich:

Quick question ...

Between the four (4) -- Dornoch, Royal Ab, Murcar and Cruden Bay -- if you have 15 rounds how do you divide them up ?

t h a n k s . . .

[Melvyn Morrow]

Matt

Your question was to Rich but the following map will hopefully give you an idea of distance. Dornoch is way to the North West of the three Aberdeenshire courses. 


Melvyn

[Rich Goodale]

Rich:

Quick question ...

Between the four (4) -- Dornoch, Royal Ab, Murcar and Cruden Bay -- if you have 15 rounds how do you divide them up ?

t h a n k s . . .

Matt

If restricted to those 4, I would probably do 9,2,2,2.  The Aberdeen area courses are all very good, but Dornoch is truly special--easily a member of the "10 courses you should play before you die club."  A split like that also allows for a reasonable a mount of time in each area, minimizing travel.

Rich

[Matt_Ward]

Rich:

Fair say then Dornoch is your #1 in all of the UK ?

Would it also be #1 in all of UK and Ireland ?

[Rich Goodale]

Not at all, Matt.

The Old Course is higher in that list, even though it is an inferior test of golf.  So is Muirfield, even though it is a superior test of golf.  So is Royal County Down.  Possibly others, but to be truthful I really haven't thought of golf courses this way before.

Cheers

rich

[Matt_Ward]

Rich:

Your top 5 in Scotland and your top 5 in Ireland ... which one do you prefer ?

If the listing moves to a top ten -- does your top five preference change ?

Thanks ...

[Chris DeNigris]

Matt,

2 more additions to the Scottish 2nd tier- Machrihanish and Machrihanish Dunes. Very soulful. Not far from Turnbury either.

[Rich Goodale]

Rich:

Your top 5 in Scotland and your top 5 in Ireland ... which one do you prefer ?

If the listing moves to a top ten -- does your top five preference change ?

Thanks ...

No surprise, Matt--I prefer Scotland's top 5.  Why?  Much more diversity.  Much more history.  Much more interesting and subtle designs.

As for top 10's, I think that Ireland drops off quickly in terms of quality whilst Scotland stays strong.  Just for fun here's a pass at the 2nd 5 for each:

Scotland:  Troon, Western Gailes, Kingsbarns, North Berwick, Royal Aberdeen
Ireland:  Waterville, Baltray, Enniscrone, European Club, Portsalon

All the Scottish courses are solid, none of the Irish ones are.  (DISCLOSURE:  I am relying on 2nd hand information for Baltray and the European Club).

rich

[Rory Connaughton]

Rich:

   What does this mean?

  "All the Scottish courses are solid, none of the Irish ones are." 

[Sean_A]

Rich:

Your top 5 in Scotland and your top 5 in Ireland ... which one do you prefer ?

If the listing moves to a top ten -- does your top five preference change ?

Thanks ...

No surprise, Matt--I prefer Scotland's top 5.  Why?  Much more diversity.  Much more history.  Much more interesting and subtle designs.

As for top 10's, I think that Ireland drops off quickly in terms of quality whilst Scotland stays strong.  Just for fun here's a pass at the 2nd 5 for each:

Scotland:  Troon, Western Gailes, Kingsbarns, North Berwick, Royal Aberdeen
Ireland:  Waterville, Baltray, Enniscrone, European Club, Portsalon

All the Scottish courses are solid, none of the Irish ones are.  (DISCLOSURE:  I am relying on 2nd hand information for Baltray and the European Club).

rich

Rihc

Solid? Diversity?  Huh? I am not sure even Peter Aliss can spew out more rubbish than this.  

The top 10 of Ireland is more than a match for the top 10 of Scotland.  After the top 10 Ireland fades.  

Ciao

[Melvyn Morrow]

Sean

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, hence why I do not make comments as to the best courses to play. What I enjoy you may not like and as for the list of top 100 courses what a waste of paper IMHO.

Enjoyment can change from AM to PM, with input from weather and companions. Who is right, we all are right when viewed through our own experiences.

Melvyn

[Tommy Williamsen]

I would choose Ireland.  Scotland is probably deeper in quality courses and has better inland courses in the Highlands.  The courses are pretty different from each other.  My favorite courses are in Ireland: RCD, Portrush, Ballybunion, Dooks, The European Club, and others.  I scenery, especially in Donegal captivates me.  That doesn't mean I don't love Scotland.  What could be better than standing on the first tee at the Old Course?  But if I had to choose a country in the UK, it would be England.  The combination between links and heathland is difficult to beat.

[Rich Goodale]

Rich:

   What does this mean?

  "All the Scottish courses are solid, none of the Irish ones are." 

Rory

I was referring to the "2nd 5" of each place.  For the 3 of those 5 I have played:  Waterville suffers from the ordinariness of the land on which the first 9 is built as well as mish-mash of styles between Fazio and Hadckett; the new dunesland holes of Enniscrone (Steel) make the routing discordant; Port Salon has a weak finish and that horrible steel covered pedestrain walkway running through the 1st and 18th fairways.

Sean

I think you are very wrong in your assesssment, but you are entitled to your opinion, as am I.  I discussed the limited meaning I had for "solid" above.  As for "diversity" I personally find Lahinch, Ballybunion, Couty Down and Portrush to be very similar in style, going in and out of high dunes.  Portmarnock is on a simpler land form, but has the same sort of duck and dive routing.  In contrast in my top 5 in Scotland you have: Dornoch, which is on a unique land form and has the best large green complexes that I know of; Muirfield which has similar routing to most of the irish courses, but with more elegance and understatement; Turnberry, which eschews the duck and dive routing to utlise the majesty of its dune corridors; Carno0ustie, which shows that great golf can be built on relatively common land; and the Old Course (nothing need be said about it's unique character).

Melvyn

I've argued against taking ratings too seriously long before you joined ever gca.com, but I have always felt that the process of trying to distinguish between courses or even classes of course can be a profitable exercise, IF one uses that process to learn and teach about what these differences can mean to the practice of golf course archiecture.  How can you design a course if you do not have some sort of set of principles and some standards against whiich to compare design options?

Cheers to all

Rich

[ed_getka]

Matt,
   From what I have gathered over the years Royal County Down and Portrush are clearly the cream of Ireland. It is my understanding that there are a number of blind drives at RCD so that is something to keep in mind for your friends.
   I think Royal Dornoch is the best course in Scotland from my limited sampling. I would just tell your friends to stay up in that area and if they happen to get bored with Dornoch they can check out Brora and the other usual suspects in the area.