So a group of my friends went to Michigan to play golf...

[Jim Franklin]

...and they are all low handicaps, well traveled golfers. Anyway their unanimous favorite course between Crystal Downs, Arcadia Bluffs, and Oakland Hills was....Arcadia Bluffs. Each one raved about the vistas and the vistas, and more about the vistas. I asked, what about the course itself? Everyone kept going back to the views. It was comical. One said Oakland Hills was just long and hard, one said CD was "tricked" up. Don't get me wrong, I liked Arcadia a lot, but not nearly as much as CD.

So there you have it, the general golfing public is more interested in views than strategy. Like we didn't know that already .

[Tom_Doak]

That's not just about the views ... Arcadia Bluffs is also long and hard and "fair" in that they don't mind posting a bogey or a double on a long par-3 or long par-4.

They probably didn't like Crystal Downs because they scored worse on a shorter course, hence, "tricked up".

[astavrides]

'tricked up' and 'gimmicky' are 2 architectural phrases that always make my stomach turn when I hear people use them.  (on a related note, I also don't like the words/phrases '3-jack' and 'track' and the use of the word 'golf' as a verb.)

[Matt_Ward]

Jim:

Quick questilon -- is it fair to say the guys you referenced base much of their thinking on total distance and what the overall CR and slopes are.

No doubt better players of the type you mentioned -- may not relish making a high number but if they do so on a long par-4 or long par-3 as Tom mentioned it doesn't hit their manhood as much if a similar score were done on a short par-4 or par-3 hole.

I've got to say that smallish greens also aren't high on such a favored listing either.

Curious to know -- what courses they like back in their own neighborhoods?

[Richard Hetzel]

There is absolutely NOTHING fair about the greens at Arcadia Bluffs. I totally agree with the views as well, it can (and does) really "take you out of your game". I cannot wait to get back there.

[Chuck Brown]

I've called Arcadia Bluffs "the most fun course in Michigan."  For the views, the variety, the drama embedded in the course architecture.  I see nothing wrong with a visitor's pronouncment of Arcadia Bluffs as a "favorite," even among exalted company like Crystal Downs and OHCC.

I'm not sure Arcadia Bluffs would be my choice to play every day, and it would take me less than a nanosecond to accept a membership offer at Crystal Downs or OHCC; but you have to be something of a golf curmudgeon to not have love for a visit to Arcadi Bluffs on a nice day.

I still think it remarkable that Arcadia Bluffs was "authored" by Rick Smith, because I just don't see it in any of his other course designs.  I'd like to know who else was doing the design and the shaping.

[Mark Pritchett]

Wonder what your friends would have thought of Kingsley. 

[Tommy Williamsen]

Jim I have played all three a number of times.  Were your friends from BCC? If so I am surprised at their conclusions. Arcadia does have beautiful views and some very good hole but I never have been enamored with it.  It certainly is not top 100 quality. 

 I used to agree with their assessment of Oakland Hills until I played it more.  It is head and shoulders above Arcadia.  The greens complexes are sstunning. 

The first time I played Crystal Downs was in the late 70's.  It was an unknown quantity.  Not enough GD panelists had played it for it to be included in the "top 100" list.  Even though I didn't know what to expect I went away thinking it was the best course I have ever played. Your friends missed the boat. 

[PThomas]

you might need some new golfing buds Jim

[Scott_Burroughs]

This reminds me of something that happened this weekend.

We had an interclub match this past weekend, and the other fellow club member of mine was talking about our 9th hole, one of my
favorites on the course, as being a bad hole because the central fairway bunkers were unfair to the shorter hitters (he was one).  
From the set of tees we were playing, maybe, but he shouldn't be playing those tees (in normal play).  The next set of tees is easier for
him to clear the bunkers or play right of them to the upper part of the fairway.  He was hitting FW woods/hybrids into par 4's all day long.

As you can see (from the blues), left of the fairway bunkers offers the shortcut path, but you flirt w/the water on the left.  The
farther right you go (safer), the longer the 2nd shot.  the longer hitter can clear the fairway bunkers to reach the upper part of the
fairway, which is flatter.  He's better off hitting from the whites:



Tom D,

I would think the guys thought CD was tricked up (at least partially) due to the nasty (good) set of greens that are sometimes (what
I've heard, please correct me if I'm wrong) too fast for the slopes.  I invited a local GCAer to join me in an outing at a local Ross
course, where we both agreed that they have a great set of greens, but the green speed was too high for them (by about 2 feet).  It was 'hit and pray'.

[JC Jones]

I havent played Arcadia Bluffs in 9 years so I need to get back there to give it a fair shake.  That being said, and I've only had the privilege of playing Crystal Downs 1 time, I cant imagine there are 5 better courses in this country that offer more options, more strategy and more fun than Crystal Downs.  And I can tell you that I walked away from Arcadia Bluffs 9 years ago thinking it was a nice course with great views, I walked away from Crystal Downs 2 years ago thinking my entire perspective on golf had changed. 

[Jim Franklin]

Wonder what your friends would have thought of Kingsley. 

They played Kingsley a few years back and hated it. This blew me away since one of the guys was a Sand Hills member. They thought Kingsley was too penal. I loved Kingsley.

[JC Jones]

Wonder what your friends would have thought of Kingsley. 

They played Kingsley a few years back and hated it. This blew me away since one of the guys was a Sand Hills member. They thought Kingsley was too penal. I loved Kingsley.

A Sand Hills member hated Kingsley and didn't like Crystal Downs?  Either Sand Hills isn't what I think it is (and I pray that it is) or this guy is an enigma wrapped in a riddle.

[Jim Franklin]

That's not just about the views ... Arcadia Bluffs is also long and hard and "fair" in that they don't mind posting a bogey or a double on a long par-3 or long par-4.

They probably didn't like Crystal Downs because they scored worse on a shorter course, hence, "tricked up".

I am going to ask them about hteir scores next time. I would bet that is pretty accurate. These guys are all pretty big ego guys and I am sure they all thought they should shot in the 60s at Crystal because it is relatively short.

[Jim Franklin]

Wonder what your friends would have thought of Kingsley. 

They played Kingsley a few years back and hated it. This blew me away since one of the guys was a Sand Hills member. They thought Kingsley was too penal. I loved Kingsley.

A Sand Hills member hated Kingsley and didn't like Crystal Downs?  Either Sand Hills isn't what I think it is (and I pray that it is) or this guy is an enigma wrapped in a riddle.

Trust me, SH is all it is cracked up to be and these guys are enigmas of the highest magnitude.

[Jim Franklin]

Jim I have played all three a number of times.  Were your friends from BCC? If so I am surprised at their conclusions. Arcadia does have beautiful views and some very good hole but I never have been enamored with it.  It certainly is not top 100 quality. 

 I used to agree with their assessment of Oakland Hills until I played it more.  It is head and shoulders above Arcadia.  The greens complexes are sstunning. 

The first time I played Crystal Downs was in the late 70's.  It was an unknown quantity.  Not enough GD panelists had played it for it to be included in the "top 100" list.  Even though I didn't know what to expect I went away thinking it was the best course I have ever played. Your friends missed the boat. 

These were BCC guys that are also members at a variety of other courses (Sand Hills, Calusa Pines, Muirfield, Kinloch, Oakmont, Southern Hills among others). I was invited to go, but knew what they thought was good and what wasn't so I declined. I would rather play those places with people that appreciate the brillance of the designs.

[Phil Benedict]

Just to be contrarian aren't the views a part of the experience? What's better, a nice house on the shore or in the mountains or the same calibre house in a suburban sub-division?  I know this is an eternal GCA debate but at the end of the day most people will judge a course on the totality of the experience, and views are a big part of the experience for most people.

[Jim Franklin]

Jim:

Quick questilon -- is it fair to say the guys you referenced base much of their thinking on total distance and what the overall CR and slopes are.

No doubt better players of the type you mentioned -- may not relish making a high number but if they do so on a long par-4 or long par-3 as Tom mentioned it doesn't hit their manhood as much if a similar score were done on a short par-4 or par-3 hole.

I've got to say that smallish greens also aren't high on such a favored listing either.

Curious to know -- what courses they like back in their own neighborhoods?

CR and slope have a lot to do with what they like. I mentioned in another post some of the other courses they are members of. In our back yard, they all love BCC and think Caves Valley is overrated as well as Congressional.

[JC Jones]

Wonder what your friends would have thought of Kingsley. 

They played Kingsley a few years back and hated it. This blew me away since one of the guys was a Sand Hills member. They thought Kingsley was too penal. I loved Kingsley.

A Sand Hills member hated Kingsley and didn't like Crystal Downs?  Either Sand Hills isn't what I think it is (and I pray that it is) or this guy is an enigma wrapped in a riddle.

Trust me, SH is all it is cracked up to be and these guys are enigmas of the highest magnitude.

Apparently given the courses they are members at and their dislike of Crystal Downs.  Although I will say, as someone who spends his entire summer staring in amazement at it, Lake Michigan can be quite intoxicating.

[Bill_McBride]

I played both CD and AB two summers ago and am definitely a GCA nut case, as I would play CD 9-1 or maybe even 10-0.

[JC Jones]

I played both CD and AB two summers ago and am definitely a GCA nut case, as I would play CD 9-1 or maybe even 10-0.

I agree w/ 10-10 although AB has a pretty decent late twilight ($50 after 6:30 and it stays light until about 10 right now) that I plan to take advantage of yet this summer.

[George Pazin]

'tricked up' and 'gimmicky' are 2 architectural phrases that always make my stomach turn when I hear people use them.

I love when people use these terms. It tells you most of what you need to know about their opinions. Anytime I ask someone about a particular course, I make certain to ask them what courses are their favorites, to get a gauge for their tastes/preferences/biases.

[Matt_Ward]

Jim:

Now I'm really confused they didnt like a classic layout like CD but love BCC

It seems their tastes have no common reference point.

Is it simply a matter of what they see from an eyeball perspective and little else ?

[JC Jones]

As a point of clarification, is BCC, Baltimore Country Club?

[Alan Gard]

Hard to believe that Kingsley was viewed as too penal.  As one who sprays the ball i found it very forgiving in that i could at least find my ball (i may have had bad angles, but i accept that penalty for inaccuracy).  It amazes me how different everyone's lens is.