Embedded Ball Qustion -- Closely mown areas -- Lee Janzen

[Carl Johnson]

Lee Janzen just had an 8 (per the commentators on TV) on no. 17 in the John Deer Tourney.  He had a bunker shot, which apparently plugged in the lip.  They said he got a "thourgh the green" free drop in the bunker.  My recollection is that free drops for embedded lies only are available in the closely mown areas of the course through the green.  Is the lip a closely mown area?  If so, how do you tell.  The sand below is not closely mown.  Do you go to the grass above?  I may be too quick on this, but the question relates to my earlier post,   http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,40530.0/.  How do you determine a closely mown area?  If this is a crazy question, please ignore.

[Mark Manuel]

I wasn't watching, but the bunker is not "through the green" so I doubt he got a drop based on that rule.  Our club has a local rule for embedded ball that allows for the rule to be "through the green" and I bet with the rain they did the same thing this week in Iowa.

Through the Green
"Through the green" is the whole area of the course except:

a. The teeing ground and putting green of the hole being played; and

b. All hazards on the course.

[Padraig Dooley]

Carl on most professional tours the embedded ball rule is extended through the green in the form of a local rule. The rule of golf allows only for free drops for embedded balls in a closely mown area as you thought.

'Through the green' is everywhere except the teeing ground, putting green of the hole been played and any hazard.

[Sean_A]

Lee Janzen just had an 8 (per the commentators on TV) on no. 17 in the John Deer Tourney.  He had a bunker shot, which apparently plugged in the lip.  They said he got a "thourgh the green" free drop in the bunker.  My recollection is that free drops for embedded lies only are available in the closely mown areas of the course through the green.  Is the lip a closely mown area?  If so, how do you tell.  The sand below is not closely mown.  Do you go to the grass above?  I may be too quick on this, but the question relates to my earlier post,   http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,40530.0/.  How do you determine a closely mown area?  If this is a crazy question, please ignore.

Carl

25-2. Embedded Ball
A ball embedded in its own pitch-mark in the ground in any closelymown
area through the green may be lifted, cleaned and dropped,
without penalty, as near as possible to the spot where it lay but not
nearer the hole.The ball when dropped must first strike a part of the
course through the green. “Closely-mown area” means any area of the
course, including paths through the rough, cut to fairway height or less.

Incidently, the face of pot bunker is not considered part of the hazard and relief is granted.  Unfortunately, this usually means dropping in the bunker - heavy sigh.

Ciao

[Dale Jackson]

Incidently, the face of pot bunker is not considered part of the hazard and relief is granted.  Unfortunately, this usually means dropping in the bunker - heavy sigh.

Ciao

Sean, not sure what you are getting at here. 

a) Grass faces are not part of the bunker, b) stacked turf faces are not part of the bunker, c) a wall or lip of a bunker not grass covered is part of the bunker.  For a ball embedded in a) or b) and with Rule 25-2 extended to through the green, free relief under Rule 25-2 is available and, if taken, the ball must be dropped through the green as close as possible to where the ball became embedded but no nearer the hole.  If it then rolls into and comes to rest in a hazard (bunker or water hazard), it must be redropped, if the ball is played from the hazard, the player has played from a wrong place and incurs a 2 stroke penalty - see Rule 20-2.

[Pete_Pittock]

I think the commentators were guessing, rather than relaying known information.

[Chris Cupit]

A ball embedded in the lip (non-grass portion) of a bunker is deemed to be in the bunker and therefore it is not lying through the green and the player is not entitled relief.

[JohnV]

I believe the ball was embedded in the grass, not the sand.  All US organizations extend the embedded ball rule to be through the green (except for sandy areas) as is allowed in the Appendix to the Rules.  The R&A doesn't use it, but some organizations in the rest of the world do.

Relief for Embedded Ball

Rule 25-2 provides relief, without penalty, for a ball embedded in its own pitch-mark in any closely mown area through the green. On the putting green, a ball may be lifted and damage caused by the impact of a ball may be repaired (Rules 16-1b and c). When permission to take relief for an embedded ball anywhere through the green would be warranted, the following Local Rule is recommended:

"Through the green, a ball that is embedded in its own pitch-mark in the ground may be lifted, without penalty, cleaned and dropped as near as possible to where it lay but not nearer the hole. The ball when dropped must first strike a part of the course through the green.

Exceptions:

1. A player may not take relief under this Local Rule if the ball is embedded in sand in an area that is not closely mown.

2. A player may not take relief under this Local Rule if it is clearly unreasonable for him to make a stroke because of interference by anything other than the condition covered by this Local Rule.

PENALTY FOR BREACH OF LOCAL RULE:
Match play - Loss of hole; Stroke play - Two strokes."

[Carl Johnson]

My original post may not have been as clear as it could have been.  It seemed like the ball was plugged in grass in the lip of the bunker.  Maybe it's not correct for me to refer to a lip as having grass.  In any case, the grass, as best I could tell, did not look "closely mown."  So, I was wondering about the about the definition of "closely mown" and from there the definition of "fairway height."

Probably the answer, as many of you suggested, was a local rule in force allowing a drop anywhere through the green.  I was not aware of that possibility, i.e., the local rule option as explained in Appendix I.  Thanks.

I'm going to look into it further in connection with the following.  The rule is on my mind because a couple of weeks ago I was playing with a guy whose ball was embedded in the rough (at a public U.S. course I play fairly regularly).  I thought he could take free relief, while another member of our team pulled out the rule book and pointed out the "closely mown" language in 25-2.  (The golfer who pulled out the rule book was also a sometime ranger at this particular course.)  Therefore we thought he should take an unplayable or play it as it lay, embedded.  He did the latter and got the ball about 5 yards forward.  In any case, if John Vander Borght is right that all U.S. organizations extend the embedded ball rule to be through the green, then in hindsight he should have been able to take free relief.  If there was ever a course where the embedded ball rule should be allowed in the rough and common sense were to prevail, it's this one.  The course is often very soggy, as it was that day.

[Dale Jackson]

Carl, John is correct that most, if not all, golf associations will extend relief for an embedded ball to through the green.  But that does not necessarily mean you are entitled to relief at all times.  All local rules are at the discretion of the Committee organizing the tournament, or if not a tournament, the Committee in charge of the course.  If the local rule extending relief for an embedded ball is not posted or on the scorecard, then relief is available in closely mown areas only.

That is official answer; if you are playing a casual round with your friends, then do what is fair.

Closely mown area means grass cut to fairway height or less.  You will not find a definition of fairway height, that varies with each golf course.

[JohnV]

Carl,

The key is that the Committee in charge of the competition (or if it was during normal play in charge of the course) has to declare that the local rule is in force.  Many courses don't do that and everybody just assumes it is.

The PGA Tour has it on their "hard card" which are the set of local rules that are in force for all events.  The USGA, the NCGA , the WPGA, the OGA, the LPGA and the Futures Tour all do also.

[Bill Brightly]

I did not see Janzen, but this just happened to me in an inter-club match:

My second shot from a fairway bunker failed to clear the lip and embedded in the turf above the bunker. The top edge of the bunker must have just recently been edged, so I stuck it right in the root structure of the turf. The  pro I was playing against said I get a free drop no nearer the hole, so I had to drop in the bunker.

Was this a correct drop? Or was I entitled to move far enough to the side to keep it out of the hazard?

[Dale Jackson]

I did not see Janzen, but this just happened to me in an inter-club match:

My second shot from a fairway bunker failed to clear the lip and embedded in the turf above the bunker. The top edge of the bunker must have just recently been edged, so I stuck it right in the root structure of the turf. The  pro I was playing against said I get a free drop no nearer the hole, so I had to drop in the bunker.

Was this a correct drop? Or was I entitled to move far enough to the side to keep it out of the hazard?

If the local rule allowing relief through the green was in effect - see quote below - then maybe.  It is not clear from your post if the ball was embedded in turf or the earthen bank of the bunker. 

If you were entitled to free relief, then the ball must be dropped outside the bunker, you would never drop in the bunker in this situation.

Carl, John is correct that most, if not all, golf associations will extend relief for an embedded ball to through the green.  But that does not necessarily mean you are entitled to relief at all times.  All local rules are at the discretion of the Committee organizing the tournament, or if not a tournament, the Committee in charge of the course.  If the local rule extending relief for an embedded ball is not posted or on the scorecard, then relief is available in closely mown areas only.

Closely mown area means grass cut to fairway height or less.  You will not find a definition of fairway height, that varies with each golf course.

[Ken Moum]

In any case, if John Vander Borght is right that all U.S. organizations extend the embedded ball rule to be through the green, then in hindsight he should have been able to take free relief.

IIRC, that's one of the rules that the USGA and R&A can't agree on.

The USGA would change it to through the green, but the R&A won't budge, so they put it in the Appendix. Then the USGA uses it for all competitions, and recommends its use to all committees.

It think the stones in bunkers rule is the reverse, the R&A wants to let players move them but the USGA doesn't.

K

[Bill Brightly]

Dale,

This is the best way I can describe it: Imagine taking a spade to the turf at the top of the bunker so that if you were standing in the bunker you could see the grass, the roots, and all the soil that composed that peice of turf. It was like looking a cross section of the turf. Well, I drilled my ball right into that, kind of buried in the root structure. Since it was about 4 inches higher than the sand in the hazard below, my opponent deemed it out of the bunker and embedded ball rule pplied.

So if I have to drop in the rough, no nearer the hole, am I entitled to a full stance outside of the bunker, even if this is 15 feet from the spot? Or must I drop right on the edge of the bunker (in which case my right leg would have been in the bunker,  4 feet below my left...

[Dale Jackson]

Dale,

This is the best way I can describe it: Imagine taking a spade to the turf at the top of the bunker so that if you were standing in the bunker you could see the grass, the roots, and all the soil that composed that peice of turf. It was like looking a cross section of the turf. Well, I drilled my ball right into that, kind of buried in the root structure. Since it was about 4 inches higher than the sand in the hazard below, my opponent deemed it out of the bunker and embedded ball rule pplied.

So if I have to drop in the rough, no nearer the hole, am I entitled to a full stance outside of the bunker, even if this is 15 feet from the spot? Or must I drop right on the edge of the bunker (in which case my right leg would have been in the bunker,  4 feet below my left...

I thought that might have been the case.  This is an unusual case regarding which I had an in depth conversation with the R&A rules gurus earlier this year.  The roots are considered part of the turf and an embedded ball in the roots is considered through the green.  Free relief if the local rule is in effect.

To take relief you must drop the ball as near as possible to where the ball embedded.  That spot is determined only with reference to the ball and has nothing to do with your stance, good or bad.