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JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
What is "modern"?
« on: July 10, 2009, 05:06:45 PM »
My understanding of what "modern" was is in line with what I posted in my Modernization thread (that got no love) in that it was largely heavy rough, trees and more target golf.  Recently on this board I've come to understand that modern defines a time period and not a style.  With Mayhugh and Bogey referring to courses like Kingsley and Ballyhack as modern. 

Can modern be a architecture style or must it only define a time period?
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I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: What is "modern"?
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2009, 08:03:14 PM »
JC:

The answer depends on whom you ask, doesn't it?

There are some new courses that I would not call "modern", but there are many that I would call by that term ... and not all of them have narrow fairways.  Indeed, lots of long grasses in the roughs on a non-seaside location screams "modern" to me.
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JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is "modern"?
« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2009, 08:34:53 PM »
Quote from: Tom_Doak on July 10, 2009, 08:03:14 PM
JC:

The answer depends on whom you ask, doesn't it?

There are some new courses that I would not call "modern", but there are many that I would call by that term ... and not all of them have narrow fairways.  Indeed, lots of long grasses in the roughs on a non-seaside location screams "modern" to me.

Ok then, I'm asking you.  Can you/Will you define "modern" as an architectural style vs a time period?
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I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

mike_beene

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is "modern"?
« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2009, 08:40:54 PM »
Answer this question and in 2030 they will be making jokes about you.
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JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is "modern"?
« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2009, 08:52:25 PM »
Quote from: mike_beene on July 10, 2009, 08:40:54 PM
Answer this question and in 2030 they will be making jokes about you.

doesn't he or any of us run that risk with any of our 1000s of comments we make on this board?
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I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Trey Stiles

Re: What is "modern"?
« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2009, 09:07:25 PM »
So , Who will break out and build Postmodern golf courses , and what will they look like ?
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JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is "modern"?
« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2009, 09:22:06 PM »
Quote from: Trey Stiles on July 10, 2009, 09:07:25 PM
So , Who will break out and build Postmodern golf courses , and what will they look like ?

i figured that postmodernism was actually neoclassical and we are in that period right now.
Logged
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

mike_beene

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is "modern"?
« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2009, 09:35:31 PM »
I was specifically thinking about the term modern:when we see a film from 1960 talking about modern life,or Disneys house of tomorrow,it has a comical feel to it now.Paraphrasing,man will never fly quit dreaming said the Rev Wright to Orville and Wilbur.
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Trey Stiles

Re: What is "modern"?
« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2009, 09:44:59 PM »
What will " postmodern " look like ?

- Reasonable length courses built for regular golfers ( Little concern for what tour players would do with it )
- Trees used for definition and angles , but not for penalty
- Fewer Sand Bunkers , but more severe
- Everything tied in nicely , avoidance of artificial shaping " look "
- Challenging shaping around green complexes
- Greater use of different grasses ( to take the spin off the ball , but not to punish mildly off target shots )
- Minimal use of artificial water hazards

That's a start ... Does that crossover into another era ?
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Jaeger Kovich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is "modern"?
« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2009, 09:47:22 PM »
What about the invention of the bulldozer? Does it not mark the beginning of this "modern" time period?

Also... What about the invention of computer aided design and gps? Does that mark the beginning of the current era?


If we are in the Neo-Classical era, the what do you call say NGLA? isn't that built with the same Neo-Classical ideas, just on the other side of the beach?  I think Pro-V1 era might be more fitting for the current, considering how much influence it has on the way SOME build golf holes!!!
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Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: What is "modern"?
« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2009, 11:46:35 PM »
JC:  I would be happy to try, but the defs are still going to work differently for different people.

For example, to someone who really knows building architecture, minimalism would NOT be an appropriate term for any golf architecture I've seen ... what we call minimalism would have to be "naturalism" or something else.

Likewise, "modern" for today's perspective could include somewhere like Ballyhack [based on the pictures I've seen here] -- i.e. big, bold, difficult, with lots of features -- but to a real architecture critic, Jaeger is right, Trent Jones and Dick Wilson would be "modern" and everything now would be "neoclassic" or "retro" or "postmodern".

Or "over the top".
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JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is "modern"?
« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2009, 08:39:13 AM »
Tom,

Everything would be over the top?  Would you consider Pacific Dunes, Sand Hills and Kingsley Club to be "over the top"?   

I know you've only seen pictures of Ballyhack (as have I) but would you consider it, Rock Creek and Greywalls to be modern in the sense that they have big, bold and several features?  Are the "over the top" big, bold features more or less acceptable (for lack of a better word) if they are already on the property like Greywalls vs if they are completely manufactured?

BTW, I would define modern not in the sense of designers but by features (i.e. narrow fairways, long rough, several trees, target golf, etc.)....but I'm no critic. :)
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I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is "modern"?
« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2009, 09:15:24 AM »
Every period thinks of its new golf courses "modern". Every era thinks of its golf courses as an advance on those of prior periods. Golf architects make a living by making that case to their clients. An architect's stock and trade is selling ideas for better courses than those that preceded them. Which is as it should be.

For all those reasons, trying to nail down a definition of the term "modern" that is not era dependent is going to be very hard. Is your question really what are the prevailing design ideas today?

Bob   

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JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is "modern"?
« Reply #13 on: July 11, 2009, 09:41:56 AM »
Quote from: BCrosby on July 11, 2009, 09:15:24 AM
Every period thinks of its new golf courses "modern". Every era thinks of its golf courses as an advance on those of prior periods. Golf architects make a living by making that case to their clients. An architect's stock and trade is selling ideas for better courses than those that preceded them. Which is as it should be.

For all those reasons, trying to nail down a definition of the term "modern" that is not era dependent is going to be very hard. Is your question really what are the prevailing design ideas today?

Bob   




No, my question is what defines "modern" golf course architecture.  Looking at it from a building architecture and even an interior design standpoint, there is a "modern" style in both of those arenas (the two overlap as a modern house tends to incorporate modern interior design).  That "modern" style is distinct from Craftsman, Arts & Crafts, Mission, Georgian, Victorian, Colonial, etc., etc.

Now, certainly Georgian, Victorian, Colonial, etc. can also be linked to time periods but the architecture has been carried forward to new houses built in that style.  Therefore, I think "modern" can be more than just a time period, but a defined "style" of golf course architecture.
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I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is "modern"?
« Reply #14 on: July 11, 2009, 10:19:55 AM »
If you are trying to get at what is meant by "Modern" (note the capital M) when used by golf historians, then you are talking about the RTJ/Dick Wilson period. Basically the 50's and 60's. As noted, I think that terminology is confusing, but it is the conceit that is often used.

Bob
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