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Dan Moore

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When Did GCA Peak in Chicago
« on: July 09, 2009, 02:28:29 AM »
I have my own opinion but want to hear from the rest of the Chicago contingent. 

When did GCA reach it peak in the Chicago area? 

Which courses were most important in the development of Golden Age GCA in Chicago? 
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"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

Adam Clayman

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Re: When Did GCA Peak in Chicago
« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2009, 06:58:29 AM »
Dan, While I have not sampled all there is to be had, my gut reaction is that Skokie and Beverly represent the best examples. So, that would put the timeframe somewhere pre 1920. Once again, just a guess. 1916 is a good number. I'll go with that.

It's a shame the L&M course(s) aren't still around.
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"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

tlavin

Re: When Did GCA Peak in Chicago
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2009, 10:46:30 AM »
I would say it peaked with the opening of the North Course at Olympia Fields, which I believe occurred in 1925.  As of that time, there existed some great iterations of classic golf course architecture: Chicago Golf, Shoreacres, Glenview, Knollwood, Beverly, Olympia Fields, Midlothian and Flossmoor, to name but a few.  I'm not as conversant with the merits of some of the courses up north, but North Shore, Exmoor and Old Elm were all in existence at that time as well and I'm sure that there are passionate supporters who would talk them up as well.

In fact, looking at this list, it compels me to lament how few architecturally great golf courses have been built in Chicagoland since 1925.  I would only put Conway Farms and Butler on that level.  Some might argue Dubsdread belongs in their company, but I think it falls a bit short.  I haven't played Black Sheep yet and knowledgeable people say great things, so I'll hold out some hope.  To me, the rest are pretenders.
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Bill_McBride

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Re: When Did GCA Peak in Chicago
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2009, 11:26:22 AM »
When did Raynor redesign and build the new Chicago Golf Club?  That might fit in that Skokie / Beverly time frame.

Just curious if the redone Chicago Golf Club is laid on the original CBM routing.  Anyone?  Paging George Bahto?
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Phil McDade

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Re: When Did GCA Peak in Chicago
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2009, 11:29:59 AM »
Bill:

Daniel Wexler, in "The Missing Links," puts the Chicago re-design by Raynor at 1923. Macdonald's original CGC design (at Wheaton, not the nine-holer at Belmont) dates to 1895.

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Dan Moore

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Re: When Did GCA Peak in Chicago
« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2009, 12:46:05 PM »
Phil,  1923 is correct for the Raynor redesign at CGC.  The routing retained only 4-5 holes from the original Old Macdonald Course.  Holes 1,2,15,17 and 18 follow the oringinal routing.  Bahto has copy of an OC Simond's plan of the 1913 course pre-Raynor which hangs in the CGC clubhouse.

Adam,  Skokie today reflects the major changes by Langford Moreau in 1939.  It is a shame more Langford Moreau hasn"t been preserved in Chicago.  I have some hope for Glen Oak which I haven't seen yet.  Butterfield had been bastardized and is being redone by Steve Smyers;  we'll see. 

Ross made a major contribution through the teens (Beverly, Exmoor, Northmoor, Skokie, Oak Park, Calumet, Bob O' Link), but was the peak with Olympia North as Terry says? 

Next thread:  best Chicago course, architecturally speaking, built in the last 50 years. 
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"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

PCCraig

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Re: When Did GCA Peak in Chicago
« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2009, 01:01:38 PM »
I would point to the exact peak of GCA in Chicago.

A time when just after Colt designed but Ross built the Old Elm Club, then Colt declined a job slightly north in Lake Bluff, at which point Raynor designed the best golf course in Chicago without the help of C.B. Macdonald. After which Donald Ross went on to design dozens of sub-par to mediocre golf courses all over Chicagoland.

Best course in Chicago within the past 50 years??? That's a tough one.
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Phil McDade

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Re: When Did GCA Peak in Chicago
« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2009, 02:41:14 PM »
Pat:

Which are Ross' sub-par/mediocre Chicago-area courses?

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tlavin

Re: When Did GCA Peak in Chicago
« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2009, 02:50:15 PM »
Quote from: Phil McDade on July 09, 2009, 02:41:14 PM
Pat:

Which are Ross' sub-par/mediocre Chicago-area courses?



Phil,

Off the top of my empty head:

Ravisloe is a couple notches below the others, but still possesses some terrific holes.  I don't think anybody is excessively fond of Oak Park from a design standpoint.  I guess some people aren't that fond of LaGrange (redesigned by Mark Mungeam).  I think it's underrated.  Calumet only has 12 or so Ross holes and some of the newer holes are pretty lame.  I was about to mention Bob O'Link, but I think that's Colt & Alison.  That place would really benefit from a thoughtful tree removal and bunker restoration project.
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PCCraig

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Re: When Did GCA Peak in Chicago
« Reply #9 on: July 09, 2009, 03:25:24 PM »
Quote from: Phil McDade on July 09, 2009, 02:41:14 PM
Pat:

Which are Ross' sub-par/mediocre Chicago-area courses?



IMO?

Calumet CC
Evanston
Hinsdale GC
Indian Hill (#1 of boring Ross courses everywhere)
LaGrange
Northmoor
Oak Park
Ravisloe

I'll let you guess which ones I think are "sub-par" vs. mediocre even though almost all on my list (in the grand sceme of things) err on the just plain average side.
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J_ Crisham

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Re: When Did GCA Peak in Chicago
« Reply #10 on: July 09, 2009, 07:05:15 PM »
Pat,    I would agree that the original Evanston layout was pretty boring. The renovation by Ron P turned out quite nicely. I feel they have as good a course given the very flat terrain in this area. I would add that the opening 3 holes are as tough as any in Chicago.
                                                                    Jack
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JR Potts

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Re: When Did GCA Peak in Chicago
« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2009, 09:25:12 PM »
Quote from: Pat Craig on July 09, 2009, 03:25:24 PM
Quote from: Phil McDade on July 09, 2009, 02:41:14 PM
Pat:

Which are Ross' sub-par/mediocre Chicago-area courses?



IMO?


Indian Hill (#1 of boring Ross courses everywhere)


Oak Park


I actually liked Indian Hill.  I thought it was a fun course.

I absolutely hated Oak Park.
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Dan Moore

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Re: When Did GCA Peak in Chicago
« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2009, 09:54:03 PM »
Of course Indian Hill was really designed by Barker.   ;D

There is some unraveling of attribution needed there. 

wasn't La Grange originally Bendelow?  How much was Ross actually responsible for there?  Langford? 
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"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

PCCraig

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Re: When Did GCA Peak in Chicago
« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2009, 07:25:50 AM »
Quote from: Ryan Potts on July 09, 2009, 09:25:12 PM
Quote from: Pat Craig on July 09, 2009, 03:25:24 PM
Quote from: Phil McDade on July 09, 2009, 02:41:14 PM
Pat:

Which are Ross' sub-par/mediocre Chicago-area courses?



IMO?


Indian Hill (#1 of boring Ross courses everywhere)


Oak Park


I actually liked Indian Hill.  I thought it was a fun course.


I've always said that while Ross "mailed in" many designes...he must of drew up the plans for Indian Hill while sitting on the can.
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JWinick

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Re: When Did GCA Peak in Chicago
« Reply #14 on: July 10, 2009, 07:42:35 AM »
Is Chicago any different from any other region in the older part of the US?   I would figure that in the Northeast & Midwest, the answer would be fairly similar.   Most of the GCA peaked pre-WWII.   And from WWII to say Pete Dye, there was little great architecture to get excited about.
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PCCraig

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Re: When Did GCA Peak in Chicago
« Reply #15 on: July 10, 2009, 10:17:52 AM »
Quote from: DSchmidt on July 10, 2009, 10:13:19 AM
Quote from: Pat Craig on July 10, 2009, 07:25:50 AM
I've always said that while Ross "mailed in" many designes...he must of drew up the plans for Indian Hill while sitting on the can.

Have you ever seen the original plans?  Or are you just talking about what's there today?

Today. Where the original plans actually seen through?

I can't imagine there ever being any GCA interest on that property.
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PCCraig

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Re: When Did GCA Peak in Chicago
« Reply #16 on: July 10, 2009, 02:51:32 PM »
Quote from: DSchmidt on July 10, 2009, 10:22:05 AM
Then, Pat, you'd probably be interested to learn that Indian Hill was once considered one of the top golf courses in the whole country.  I agree that what's there now ain't all that, but what was there was awefully darn good in its day by all acocunts.

Dave-

Out of curiousity, what happened then to the course for it to go from one of the best in the country to the present form? Overgrown trees? Were holes changed?
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