Pacific Dunes vs. Old Macdonald

[Michael Dugger]

Something that always bugs me about discussions of this sort.......compare/contrast stuff is this:

If you truly love golf course architecture, if you are a true student of the art form.......

Then you play everything.  Bandon Dunes, Pac Dunes, Trails, Old Mac, etc...

You get down to Bandon Crossings

You play the Reverse Jans National.......Ferdanina Beach.....Chuckanut......Santa Teresa.....etc.

You play them all.......over and over.......any course where a ball can be teed up and a cup awaits yer pellet

If you don't, I think you are perusing the wrong website

[Jed Peters]

There are certain courses that just "do it" for me.

Cypress is one.
SFGC another.
MPCC Shore another.
Jasper Park last week was one.
Old Mac is another.

All awesome courses in a "classical" sense.

I need to get to Ballyneal and Sand Hills.

[Tom_Doak]

Jed:

As it happens, I played 18 holes at Pacific Dunes and went around Old Macdonald twice with two different groups, just yesterday.  (My legs are pretty tired.)  I could not really say that I preferred one over the other.

Everyone else:

I do think there are a lot of people on Golf Club Atlas who try to simplify all discussion of design to talking about the Redan, Biarritz, Road hole ... the models we used for Old Macdonald.  I'm sure that will make the course a favorite here, but I'm not sure that qualifies the course as better in any way.

I am amazed at the feedback for Old Macdonald to date -- especially, how easily people can jump the gun on deciding what's good or not.  I can't wait until the Redan is playable so everybody here can tell me how we got it wrong.  (Or, maybe I can.)

[Eric Smith]

Maybe Jed said that, Tom, because he's played Pacific Dunes 75 times and Old Mac is brand new.
   

Maybe...maybe not.  We should appreciate Jed for sharing his thoughts on the matter.  Simple as that.

I trust we're still capable of differentiating between what is 'BS gossip' as you say, and what is not. 

[Michael Dugger]

Maybe Jed said that, Tom, because he's played Pacific Dunes 75 times and Old Mac is brand new.
  

Maybe...maybe not.  We should appreciate Jed for sharing his thoughts on the matter.  Simple as that.

I trust we're still capable of differentiating between what is 'BS gossip' as you say, and what is not.  

Are we indeed capable?  I question that sometimes.

It would be nice if Jed would set the record straight....why does he prefer playing Old Mac twice?

Does it really do it for him THAT MUCH MORE.........or is it because the course is new freshness and he knows Pacific like the back of his hand.

[Tom Huckaby]

Michael - points all well taken - very well said.

It's just that I know Jed, at least a little... we played another rather great course together.. and I think I know his tastes in courses.  This isn't some anonymous Joe saying this - not to me anyway.  And while I have fueled the gossip, well... it was such a strong statement, I could not help myself.

But you do make very valid points.  Play them all, for sure.  Great and not so great.

TH

[Eric Smith]

Maybe Jed said that, Tom, because he's played Pacific Dunes 75 times and Old Mac is brand new.
  

Maybe...maybe not.  We should appreciate Jed for sharing his thoughts on the matter.  Simple as that.

I trust we're still capable of differentiating between what is 'BS gossip' as you say, and what is not.  

Are we indeed capable?  I question that sometimes.

It would be nice if Jed would set the record straight....why does he prefer playing Old Mac twice?

Let's be fair then.  After reading Tom Doak's post above wouldn't you then ask him to 'set the record straight' on why he couldn't choose one over the other?

[Michael Dugger]

Michael - points all well taken - very well said.

It's just that I know Jed, at least a little... we played another rather great course together.. and I think I know his tastes in courses.  This isn't some anonymous Joe saying this - not to me anyway.  And while I have fueled the gossip, well... it was such a strong statement, I could not help myself.

But you do make very valid points.  Play them all, for sure.  Great and not so great.

TH

Huck

I suspect Doak is probably pleased there might be a "polarization" going on amongst folks regarding Old Mac and Pacific.

It would mean Renaissance managed to make two golf courses right next door to one another different.

But I stand by what I said, a "grass is always greener on the other side" thing is probably going to ensue here...

[Michael Dugger]

Maybe Jed said that, Tom, because he's played Pacific Dunes 75 times and Old Mac is brand new.
  

Maybe...maybe not.  We should appreciate Jed for sharing his thoughts on the matter.  Simple as that.

I trust we're still capable of differentiating between what is 'BS gossip' as you say, and what is not.  

Are we indeed capable?  I question that sometimes.

It would be nice if Jed would set the record straight....why does he prefer playing Old Mac twice?

Let's be fair then.  After reading Tom Doak's post above wouldn't you then ask him to 'set the record straight' on why he couldn't choose one over the other?

Okay, I'm game.

A. Tom Doak would never say one of his courses is better than the other, each are his babies.  It's just not good business.

B. They are both awesome!  Just like Ballyneal, Sebonack, Barnbougle etc etc etc.

At the end of the day, it's all personal preference, especially on this level.

Both are on ample pieces of land, no cramped holes, no poor conditioning, no unthoughtful design etc...

Each affords wonderful terrain, gorgeous scenery, etc...

But they are just different, that's all

[Eric Smith]

Well put Michael and I'm trying to learn here honestly.  Thanks!

[Tom Huckaby]

Michael - points all well taken - very well said.

It's just that I know Jed, at least a little... we played another rather great course together.. and I think I know his tastes in courses.  This isn't some anonymous Joe saying this - not to me anyway.  And while I have fueled the gossip, well... it was such a strong statement, I could not help myself.

But you do make very valid points.  Play them all, for sure.  Great and not so great.

TH

Huck

I suspect Doak is probably pleased there might be a "polarization" going on amongst folks regarding Old Mac and Pacific.

It would mean Renaissance managed to make two golf courses right next door to one another different.

But I stand by what I said, a "grass is always greener on the other side" thing is probably going to ensue here...

Michael - I quite agree, that will certainly occur.  And right on re all the rest.

TH

[Tim Pitner]

I predict there will a rush (at least here) to proclaim OM as the hands-down best course at the Bandon resort, both because of the newness factor (think of the backlash against BD after PD and then BT were built) and because of what Tom mentioned--that some people are enamored with the template holes. 

I'm not sure I've ever played a true Redan (does PD #17 count?) or a Biarritz, but I don't understand why people get so excited about these holes.  The Biarritz, in particular, seems rather goofy and reproducing that hole on course after course doesn't seem very clever at all, to me.  I am, however, looking forward to playing some NGLA-type holes in the Bandon setting and on that great turf. 

[Michael Dugger]

I predict there will a rush (at least here) to proclaim OM as the hands-down best course at the Bandon resort, both because of the newness factor (think of the backlash against BD after PD and then BT were built) and because of what Tom mentioned--that some people are enamored with the template holes.  

I'm not sure I've ever played a true Redan (does PD #17 count?) or a Biarritz, but I don't understand why people get so excited about these holes.  The Biarritz, in particular, seems rather goofy and reproducing that hole on course after course doesn't seem very clever at all, to me.  I am, however, looking forward to playing some NGLA-type holes in the Bandon setting and on that great turf.  

Interesting thought provoking post, Tim.

I agree with much of what you said, but I wonder about the template hole thing.

Doncha think a lot of this is lip service, though???  We've got drone golfers out there, clones, if you will, who think "Wow, these template holes represent the greatest thing since sliced bread!" when in reality the CBMac/Raynor template thing is basically "just another style of design."

I say big effing deal, it's just another style.  It does so happen to be the case it's a type of golf course architecture few of us have played much, since most MacRaynor courses are private shrines.

But big deal....

Even then, Tom et al has mentioned numerous times that the Old Mac course is an "homage" to those template holes, not a strict duplication.

In that regard, numerous courses........no, make that COUNTLESS courses have golf holes based on the road hole, redan, sahara, etc....they just didn't call them such.

At the end of the day Old Macdonald will be a phenomenal golf course for the same reason any course is.  Stunning land, gorgeous vistas, good conditioning and thought provoking, strategic golf holes.  It will be fun!

[Ben Sims]

...Unfortunately, I haven't seen a ton of "top" golf courses in the world.  The ones I have seen are dominated by a "certain architect".  Even one of my sentimental faves that doesn't have his name on it, has alas been renovated by his firm. 

...not a bad problem to have!  I've played exactly 2 by RGD and one is NLE. 

I'm planning to join you, along with Gray, pre-GCA event at the Sheep Ranch next May and very much look forward to the experience.

Eric,

Glad to have you.  I want anyone that wants to come out a day early for that to get in.  It will be a hoot.  I am pretty sure that Bally Bandon will still be open the first week of May.  If not, we'll go play Troy Russell's place in town with hickory clubs.

As for why I liked OM so much; for the record it had nothing to do with biarritz's, cape's or road's.  It had to do with variety, several different cuts and types of bunkers, and the open ground. 

[Tim Pitner]

Michael,

You touched on some good points.  I confess that, as one who hasn't and probably never will play NGLA, I am looking forward to playing those types of holes.  But, if Renaissance Golf was simply producing template holes at Bandon, I would say, "what a waste of their talent."  The fact that Tom Doak has called the course "an homage" and stated that RG will incorporate natural landforms and not simply impose templates on the landscape is very encouraging. 

What's exciting to me about OM is that I know the seaside (clifftop?) land there is ideal for golf--it's been proven thrice--and RG has been given a brief to create something very different from PD.  I expect it to be really good.  The template holes, per se, don't interest me that much. 

[Michael Dugger]

Michael,

You touched on some good points.  I confess that, as one who hasn't and probably never will play NGLA, I am looking forward to playing those types of holes.  But, if Renaissance Golf was simply producing template holes at Bandon, I would say, "what a waste of their talent."  The fact that Tom Doak has called the course "an homage" and stated that RG will incorporate natural landforms and not simply impose templates on the landscape is very encouraging. 

What's exciting to me about OM is that I know the seaside (clifftop?) land there is ideal for golf--it's been proven thrice--and RG has been given a brief to create something very different from PD.  I expect it to be really good.  The template holes, per se, don't interest me that much. 

Absolutely!  I have been on the property.  Only Rees Jones could screw up a course out there!!!

[Jed Peters]

It would be nice if Jed would set the record straight....why does he prefer playing Old Mac twice?

It's more fun, better layout, more interesting holes/shot varieties, harder (in the right ways), less penal, better "test" for championship golf, better greens and complexes, cooler tee shots--

I could go on.

[Michael Dugger]

It would be nice if Jed would set the record straight....why does he prefer playing Old Mac twice?

It's more fun, better layout, more interesting holes/shot varieties, harder (in the right ways), less penal, better "test" for championship golf, better greens and complexes, cooler tee shots--

I could go on.

We are certainly all entitled to our opinions.

With that glowing review Pine Valley better watch out, Old Mac is going to the top....

[Jed Peters]

It would be nice if Jed would set the record straight....why does he prefer playing Old Mac twice?

It's more fun, better layout, more interesting holes/shot varieties, harder (in the right ways), less penal, better "test" for championship golf, better greens and complexes, cooler tee shots--

I could go on.

We are certainly all entitled to our opinions.

With that glowing review Pine Valley better watch out, Old Mac is going to the top....

Dunno, haven't played there.

But Cypress Point is still better, so no worries.

[Rob Rigg]

OM is a different playing experience than PD - not quite sure why people are crapping on others who are excited about it.

When I went to BD I played all of the courses there for the first time. It wasn't like OM was newer than BT was newer than PD was newer than BD.

I realize OM was only 10 holes but, for whatever reason, it was a really cool experience for me. Seeing the templates certainly was interesting and enjoyable, but I had never played a template hole before (aside from the Redan at PD that was not very Redan'y with the wind).

The Hell Bunker and how it dominates the hole is really cool. The Ocean hole is very different from what you would normally see on any modern course because an approach to an uphill green is pretty damn taboo - but it rocks. The Biarritz, again, is an interesting hole in its own right and the swale in the green just adds to the magic. The Sahara is another great hole with a fun tee shot that will be all world when it is below the bunker. Hogsback has the ultimate turbo boost if you can hit it right, especially with a tail wind, and Short is something I have never seen before - a massive green on a 130 yard hole, with wicked movement and slope, along with crazy hazards around it.

The fact of the mattter is, if none of these holes were templates (or template inspired), I could care less. They are just fun golf holes that I look forward to playing over and over again.

You can poo poo people all you want for being excited about OM and jumping to conclusions and whatever - but for a first time visitor to Bandon, it was my favorite course.

So you can  yourself and accept that others can have opinions that differ from yours.

[Michael Dugger]

OM is a different playing experience than PD - not quite sure why people are crapping on others who are excited about it.

When I went to BD I played all of the courses there for the first time. It wasn't like OM was newer than BT was newer than PD was newer than BD.

I realize OM was only 10 holes but, for whatever reason, it was a really cool experience for me. Seeing the templates certainly was interesting and enjoyable, but I had never played a template hole before (aside from the Redan at PD that was not very Redan'y with the wind).

The Hell Bunker and how it dominates the hole is really cool. The Ocean hole is very different from what you would normally see on any modern course because an approach to an uphill green is pretty damn taboo - but it rocks. The Biarritz, again, is an interesting hole in its own right and the swale in the green just adds to the magic. The Sahara is another great hole with a fun tee shot that will be all world when it is below the bunker. Hogsback has the ultimate turbo boost if you can hit it right, especially with a tail wind, and Short is something I have never seen before - a massive green on a 130 yard hole, with wicked movement and slope, along with crazy hazards around it.

The fact of the mattter is, if none of these holes were templates (or template inspired), I could care less. They are just fun golf holes that I look forward to playing over and over again.

You can poo poo people all you want for being excited about OM and jumping to conclusions and whatever - but for a first time visitor to Bandon, it was my favorite course.

So you can  yourself and accept that others can have opinions that differ from yours.

Nice message Rob

[Michael Dugger]

We are certainly all entitled to our opinions.

With that glowing review Pine Valley better watch out, Old Mac is going to the top....

Did you have too many barley pops last night, Rob, did you not read this???

Hence, you can go  yerself as well...

[Richard Choi]

I am with Tim. One of the most exciting aspect of playing Old Mac is that it is a collection of template holes.

Most of us will probably never play NGLA and any quality course that will give us a good taste of what NGLA is like is something that I crave. I am dying with excitement...

[JC Urbina]

Rob
I am excited about  playing the other 8 holes we did this past spring. The fact that OM has generated some discussion about CB Macdonald is a good thing. I am sure that the debate about the Redan or if the road hole stirs the imagation of golfers no matter the ability is what OM is supposed to do.
The alps and littlestone are two holes that will generate a few discussions and that is what this web site is all about.  As far as comparing OM to Pacific dunes or Trails or Bandon is for others to decide.
 But discussing the merits of each hole at OM is exactly why Macdonald asked people to discuss the ideal holes  voted on by the best players  and published in the English Periodical in the UK way before  golf magazines in the U.S do  today.  If we did a good job each hole at OM will draw a different response.
As Macdonald did in 1910 People had opnions of the National in it's day and for that matter people still have varying opinions today.
OM simply allows more people to experience it.   

[Rob Rigg]

Jim - I am fairly certain that all of the parties involved in OM's creation will be very happy with the discussion it generates - it is such an exciting and unique project.

Michael - I certainly read your various posts - your dripping sarcasm in the line below along with your other high and mighty statements is what prompted the heated response. I enjoy your rebuttals on most issues, but your belief that people keep their lips sealed about an exciting new course, even if it is not open, does not need to be repeated more than once on a thread. Point taken, I disagree with you on this matter (although we have agreed on many others).

Excitement about GCA at a new course is a good thing - something I believe we should be supporting on the site not telling people to shut up about.

"With that glowing review Pine Valley better watch out, Old Mac is going to the top  "