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Matt_Ward

The Digest Muni Ratings ...
« on: July 08, 2009, 08:00:40 PM »
Just reviewed Digest's top 50 muni ratings and see plenty of unknown courses to me. Be interested in what others have to say.

In my home state -- I was happy to see The Knoll / West listed but I think the desire to get it the top spot is a bit premature until the work being done there is totally completed. Until that happens -- Hominy Hill in Colts Neck takes the top spot for me.

I wonder how much the pricing dimension was weighed -- was it an equal split between what's charged and the quality of the design ?

David Stamm

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Re: The Digest Muni Ratings ...
« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2009, 08:03:30 PM »
Torrey for Cal is a joke. There is just something about muni and $210 in the same sentence that is criminal. I'll take Santa Anita any day. $25 and a MUCH better golf course.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Ron Csigo

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Re: The Digest Muni Ratings ...
« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2009, 08:14:59 PM »
Just reviewed Digest's top 50 muni ratings and see plenty of unknown courses to me. Be interested in what others have to say.

In my home state -- I was happy to see The Knoll / West listed but I think the desire to get it the top spot is a bit premature until the work being done there is totally completed. Until that happens -- Hominy Hill in Colts Neck takes the top spot for me.

I wonder how much the pricing dimension was weighed -- was it an equal split between what's charged and the quality of the design ?

Hey Matt,

I just played at Knoll West this past Thursday.  The course is in fantastic condition.  I truly enjoy this Charles Banks hidden gem.  When was the last time you played there?  Help me understand something.  Is Knoll West truly a municipal course?  I know Knoll East, its neighbor course, definitely is but I thought Knoll West was semi-private because it has a membership.

With regard to Hominy Hill, it is the best muni in the state followed by Neshanic Valley in Somerset County.
Playing and Admiring the Great Golf Courses of the World.

Matt_Ward

Re: The Digest Muni Ratings ...
« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2009, 08:18:16 PM »
Ron:

I played Knoll West a few weeks back last month.

You don't have to convince me it's a grand Banks course -- but there's still a few things needed to get done before the champagne gets passed around.

The Township of Parippany owns both courses from my understanding. Years ago the status of the two clubs was handled differently if memory serves.

Hominy Hill is still the top dog in my book - and frankly, until Knoll West completes the entire package you are certainly right to mention the qualities of Neshanic Valley.

John Moore II

Re: The Digest Muni Ratings ...
« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2009, 08:21:58 PM »
So did this list actually list he '50 best muni's' or did it list the best in each state? I only remember seeing it list the best in each state when I looked last night.

Also, I did notice that Bryan Park in Greensboro is rated the best muni in NC. I kind of disagree now that it should be classified as a muni. It is owned by the City of Greensboro, but all the property is leased to the Bryan Foundation, who contracts management through Pinnacle Golf Mgmt. Either way, I think Oak Hollow just down the road from BP in High Point is a far superior design to Bryan Park, Ed Getka and I just played there on Monday, very good golf course, especially for the $16 is costs to walk 18 holes.

Matt_Ward

Re: The Digest Muni Ratings ...
« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2009, 08:26:04 PM »
John:

Point well made.

The listing is simply the best muni for each respective state.

Curious to know if the equation was 50/50 price and design quality.

Also, you made another valid point -- are all the courses bonafide muni's or simply contracted out to others to handle.

Ron Csigo

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Re: The Digest Muni Ratings ...
« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2009, 08:32:25 PM »
Matt,  

Would like to hear your thoughts as to where the course can use some improvements?

Personally, I find the green complexes, green side bunkering and even some of the fairway bunkers to be superb considering it's a municipal course.  However, I do find holes #8, 10, 11 somewhat bland and ordinary.  I also found that most, if not all, of the teeing grounds require re-work because they're not level.  
Playing and Admiring the Great Golf Courses of the World.

John Moore II

Re: The Digest Muni Ratings ...
« Reply #7 on: July 08, 2009, 08:39:52 PM »
John:

Point well made.

The listing is simply the best muni for each respective state.

Curious to know if the equation was 50/50 price and design quality.

Also, you made another valid point -- are all the courses bonafide muni's or simply contracted out to others to handle.

Yeah, I wonder if price comes into play at all. I mean, Bethpage is $125ish for out-of-state, Torrey Pines is $160 or so, Chambers Bay is up there. To me, those are not prices that should be in the realm of possibility for a true 'municipal' course.

And I guess I should restate my opinion: Bryan Park is probably the best course overall, considering conditioning, difficulty and the other Digest rating criteria, Bryan Park is most likely better than Oak Hollow, but to me, OH has far more interest and requires a lot more creativity.

Phil McDade

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Phil McDade

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Re: The Digest Muni Ratings ...
« Reply #9 on: July 08, 2009, 08:47:59 PM »
Also, you made another valid point -- are all the courses bonafide muni's or simply contracted out to others to handle.

Lots of municipal governments -- cities, counties, states -- farm out various services to outside contractors (like, food service for prisons), and golf is no exception (Janesville Riverside, a muni in Wisconsin I recently profiled, is one such example). I'm not sure what a bonafide or true muni is; my definition would include something along the lines of: no restrictions on public play and ownership maintained by some level of government. The pricing issue is a difficult one -- lots of governments have differential pricing on multiple courses due to demand and/or expectations (Brown Deer in Milwaukee Co., e.g., is priced above other Milwaukee Co. courses, appropriately so, in my view.)

J Sadowsky

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Re: The Digest Muni Ratings ...
« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2009, 09:32:49 PM »
They got Maryland and Virginia wrong.  Maryland should have gone to Greystone in Baltimore County, and Virginia should have gone to Laurel Hill in Fairfax (granted, at $99/round weekend).

Criss Titschinger

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Re: The Digest Muni Ratings ...
« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2009, 09:48:17 PM »
For the OH-KY-IN area...

Indiana - Have heard lots of good things about Hulman Links, so can't really dispute that one... (updated 7/10/09 with recent revelation) other than the fact that The Fort is state owned, which makes me think perhaps that course should have won instead.

Kentucky - Very surprised at Eagle Creek in La Grange winning this.  If Bethpage counts for New York, wouldn't the Kentucky State Park courses count here? I can think of many of those (Hidden Cove, Dale Hollow, etc.) that are better than Eagle Creek.  And if those don't qualify, I think Lassing Pointe or Kearney Hill are better courses.

Ohio - The Vineyard?  Really?! What about Sleepy Hollow or Manakiki in Cleveland, or Weatherwax (any set of 9s) in the Cincy/Dayton area? Don't really agree with this selection.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2009, 09:11:02 AM by Criss Titschinger »

John_Conley

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My thoughts
« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2009, 10:06:08 PM »
I spent half my life in Minnesota and half in Florida.  I've never played Superior National or Boynton Beach.

For Minnesota I thought Edinburgh USA would have won, if not on merit merely due to reputation.  In Florida I'm real surprised the nod didn't go to North Palm Beach.

I've only played Wintonbury Hills (congratulations Brad!) and Torrey.

Phil McDade

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Re: The Digest Muni Ratings ...
« Reply #13 on: July 08, 2009, 10:20:31 PM »
I'm still scratching my head over the Wisconsin selection -- Glacier Wood in the tiny town of Iola. I knew there was a golf course there, just didn't know its name. I'm a bit skeptical that it's a true muni -- it would easily be the single-largest expense for the government of that town. Hard to imagine it's better than Brown Deer.

Cliff Hamm

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Re: The Digest Muni Ratings ...
« Reply #14 on: July 08, 2009, 10:21:20 PM »
Rhode Island - GD lists North Kingstown G.C.  Not even close to Triggs in Providence.

Jason Topp

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Re: The Digest Muni Ratings ...
« Reply #15 on: July 08, 2009, 10:32:58 PM »
The list is a joke for the states I am familiar with.


Those Places to Play star ratings can only be explained by ballot stuffing.  Every course with even a modicum of marketing savvy gets a 4 star or better rating, including some of the worst courses I have ever seen. 

Andy Troeger

Re: The Digest Muni Ratings ...
« Reply #16 on: July 08, 2009, 10:40:54 PM »
Well the New Mexico winner is the obvious choice--Pinon Hills. Given that most of the other nice public options have a casino component, that one was a slam dunk.

Matthew Rose

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Re: The Digest Muni Ratings ...
« Reply #17 on: July 08, 2009, 10:49:43 PM »
I'm still scratching my head over the Wisconsin selection -- Glacier Wood in the tiny town of Iola. I knew there was a golf course there, just didn't know its name. I'm a bit skeptical that it's a true muni -- it would easily be the single-largest expense for the government of that town. Hard to imagine it's better than Brown Deer.


I've never even heard of it. Is this new?

I'm not sure how one could go past Brown Deer either. I'm also quite the fan of Brown County in Green Bay.
American-Australian. Trackman Course Guy. Fatalistic sports fan. Drummer. Bass player. Father. Cat lover.

Phil McDade

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Re: The Digest Muni Ratings ...
« Reply #18 on: July 08, 2009, 10:59:51 PM »
Matt:

I'm sure RJ Daley will weigh in with thoughts on Brown County; it's his home course!

I had heard about some course up there in Iola, but never came across the name. Nearby Waupaca has a couple of decent courses, but I've never heard of anyone seeking out this course. Larry Packard had some involvement in the course; they built a nine-holer in the 1960s, then added on to it about a decade ago. It's said to have dozens of huge glacier boulders lining the fairways and various spots on the course that were dug up during the expansion. The aerial clearly looks like an old nine with a new nine added on, as roughly half the course winds through some pretty thick woods.

Odd, odd choice -- Naga-Waukee in Waukesha Counyt is another muni that has some good holes and good terrain.

astavrides

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Re: The Digest Muni Ratings ...
« Reply #19 on: July 08, 2009, 11:26:10 PM »


In my home state -- I was happy to see The Knoll / West listed but I think the desire to get it the top spot is a bit premature until the work being done there is totally completed. Until that happens -- Hominy Hill in Colts Neck takes the top spot for me.


I thought George Bahto said the work at Knoll West is completed.

Matt_Ward

Re: The Digest Muni Ratings ...
« Reply #20 on: July 08, 2009, 11:55:52 PM »
astavrides:

My understanding is that the work that is completed -- is the work that has been budgeted for. George, from my memory, indicated that other elements could be included for the layout but that $$ would likely be needed for that to happen.

Gents:

One of the issues that still doesn't add up -- how much of the final equation is based upon price and how much emphasis is on the quality of the design? Is it 50/50 or is skewed towards one category or the other. Can't imagine it's price since Torrey really hits the non-resident hard -- ditto what Bethpage does for the Black.

I thought Digest had hit a low with the omission of Kingsley from its top 100 overall -- but the muni article, while certainly needed, appears to be badly researched for what are the truly fine layouts in the States. I can't fathom how certain places are mentioned -- clearly others who have opined feel likewise.

Phil McDade:

You raise a few interesting points. Clearly the tag "muni" is not really accurate. When we speak of such courses they are really taxpayer owned facilities. No doubt many of these, as you correctly noted, are then contracted out to vendors / management companies to run them for a set period of years.

In my years of observation -- when taxpayer-owned courses go the route of contracting out the net price for fees usually rises to cover the costs of the contract. This happened with noticeable impact when American Golf took over several of the NYC muni courses a number of years ago. In the first few years they cleaned up the most obvious issues (no grass cutting, massive litter on the courses, etc, etc) and then made it a point to spike the fees after 2-3 years.

Phil, when you mention "no restrictions" on public play -- that doesn't happen much at all. Most jurisdictions usually give preference to their own residents -- whether town / city, county or state. No doubt you can still play the course(s) in question but need to wait for the residents to get first cracks at tee times. Bethpage used to have such an "open" policy but that all changed once the major upgrades were kicked into gear prior to the '02 US Open.

I certainly believe the topic of highlighting such golf is long overdue simply because the sheer mass of people who play golf or enter into it will likely have such courses as their primary play places. Digest had its heart in the right place -- but the info and courses presented has been fumbled.


Sean_A

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Re: The Digest Muni Ratings ...
« Reply #21 on: July 09, 2009, 03:45:32 AM »
I am pleasantly surprised to see my one of my former hangouts mentioned - Leslie Park in Ann Arbor.  Its good, but nothing special.  That said, I can't think of another muni in Michigan that is clearly better.  There are quite a few very good holes in the first 11 and the course does flow well despite the alterations by one of GCA.com's  persona non gratis.  However, after the 11th the course does sort of fizzle out.  Its worth a go if you are in the area and can't get on Michigan or Barton Hills.  All this said, if Leslie is representative of the list, I don't have much confidence that this list was worth producing.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Phil_the_Author

Re: The Digest Muni Ratings ...
« Reply #22 on: July 09, 2009, 07:24:48 AM »
Matt,

You wrote, "the info and courses presented has been fumbled..." In what sense do you mean that?

GD didn't do a separate ranking for this. It is my understanding that they simply culled the ratings done for the rankings and pulled out the highest municipal from each state. Avtually, it isn't a Top 50 ranking as if these are being compared against each other... it is the naming of the highest ranked municipal course in each state, that is all...

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: The Digest Muni Ratings ...
« Reply #23 on: July 09, 2009, 07:55:27 AM »
This whole thing is flawed as it is based on the "star" ratings which are nothing more than a popularity contest.


Cranberry Highlands in PA is in the western part of the state. Anyone here ever played there? I wonder how it would compare with Inniscrone now that Hanse's course is now a muni.


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Matt_Ward

Re: The Digest Muni Ratings ...
« Reply #24 on: July 09, 2009, 07:58:16 AM »
Phil:

The names selected don't add up to the people who I have talked with around the nation that I know and it's been verified by plenty of comments made by people who have responded to this post.

I started with my home state -- The Knoll / West is a fine layout and I have mentioned it numerous times here. However, there are places beyond it in terms of price and overall design elements as presently constituted. Hominy Hill is most certainly ahead of it now. Ditto the qualities of Neshanic Valley which has been mentioned too.

If you see the comments by people here the net result is that Digest can certainly go beyond the static numbers and highlight the really solid gems of muni golf -- having Bethpage Black mentioned is wonderful but there's more below the surface that Digest could have unearthed. For the really serious public course player the info from the game's premier pub could have been a bit more insightful and meaningful in my opinion.

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