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Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Canada 1930
« Reply #50 on: July 08, 2009, 08:52:42 PM »
Although Corley-Smith does not credit Macan with much of this work, the club views itself largely as a Macan design and certainly some of the greens are very typical of him.


Dale, I was until recently a member of a Macan course in Portland (Columbia-Edgewater), and wonder what you see as as "..greens..typical of him."?  I am seriously interested as I saw nothing consistent in style at CECC and haven't played any other Macan courses except California Club.  Please elaborate!  ;D


Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Canada 1930
« Reply #51 on: July 08, 2009, 09:54:11 PM »
Montebello seems underrated.  Canada is not blessed with many storied public tracks.
That depends on how you define public.  Highland Links, Banff and Jasper are all public (and in the top 11 in Score's 2008 rankings) and are not ridiculously expensive compared to the top public resort courses in the US like Pebble or Pinehurst #2.  Do you not consider them "storied".  And there are good newer courses too like Eagle's Nest,Crowbush, Taboo, Muskoka Bay, Cobble Beach, etc.

Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Canada 1930
« Reply #52 on: July 08, 2009, 10:18:28 PM »
Wayne & Ian,

The closest that I can nail Tilly's work at Scarboro down to is that it probably occurred between 1923 & 24. In the American Annual golf guide for 1922 it lists Scarboro as being 5,360 yards in length. In 1925 it lists it at 6,250 yards. I'm missing the other two years.
According to Scarboro's unpublished history Tillly arrived at Scarboro in July of 1924.  It is unclear to me when the work was completed but it sounds as if it took at least 2-3 years but I also can't tell how often Tilly returned, if at all.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Canada 1930
« Reply #53 on: July 08, 2009, 10:57:13 PM »
Courses for Consideration – East to West

Nova Scotia
Digby Pines – Thompson 1929
Brightwood – Ross 1920

New Brunswick

Algonquin - Ross
Riverside - ? 1897, Ross

Quebec
Mt Bruno - Willie Park Jr 1918, Thompson 1925
Royal Montreal-Dixie course (NLE) – Park 1922
Islesmere – Park 1918
Laval-sur-le-lac – Park 1917, Strong ?
Beaconsfield – ? 1904, Park 1918
Royal Quebec - Park 1922, Strong ?
Royal Ottawa – Park
Seigniory Club (Montebello) – Thompson 1929
Manior Richleau (NLE) – Strong 1925

Ontario

Ottawa Hunt - Park
Cataraqui – 1917 - Thompson - 1930
Toronto GC – Colt 1912, Alison 1922
Hamilton GC  - Colt 1914, Alison 1920
St Georges – Thompson 1929
Shoreacres (NLE) – Thompson 1922
Scarboro GC – Cumming 1912, Tillinghast 1925
Weston - Willie Park Jr 1920
Lambton – Barrett 1902?
Lakeview – Strong 1920
Rosedale – Ross 1919
Bigwin Island – Thompson 1921
Thornhill – Thompson - 1922
Summit – Cumming 1912, Thompson 1920
Mississauga - Barret & Ross 1906, Thompson 1926
Oakdale – Thompson - 1926
York Downs (NLE) – Alison 1922
Brantford – ? 1906, remodel N. Thompson 1920
Westmount – Thompson 1931
Cherry Hill – Travis 1922
Lookout Point – Travis 1922
St. Thomas – Thompson 1922
Essex – Ross 1929

Manitoba

Niakawa – Thompson 1922
Pine Ridge - Ross 1919
St. Charles - Ross (9) 1920, Mackenzie (+9) 1931
Elmhurst - ?  ,Ross 1923

Saskatchewan

Saskatoon - Kinnear 1907
Riverside - Kinnear 1912

Alberta

Mayfair – Thompson 1922
Calgary – ? 1897, Park 1922
Jasper – Thompson 1925, Thompson 1927
Banff Springs – Thompson 1927

British Columbia

Victoria – ? 1910, Macan 1920
Marine Drive – Macan 1922
Royal Colwood – Macan 1913
Jericho (NLE) – Dunthie
Shaughnessy Heights - ? 1911


« Last Edit: July 10, 2009, 06:32:42 AM by Tom MacWood »

Will MacEwen

Re: Canada 1930
« Reply #54 on: July 08, 2009, 11:01:04 PM »
Montebello seems underrated.  Canada is not blessed with many storied public tracks.
That depends on how you define public.  Highland Links, Banff and Jasper are all public (and in the top 11 in Score's 2008 rankings) and are not ridiculously expensive compared to the top public resort courses in the US like Pebble or Pinehurst #2.  Do you not consider them "storied".  And there are good newer courses too like Eagle's Nest,Crowbush, Taboo, Muskoka Bay, Cobble Beach, etc.

I think it depends more on how you define "many".   ;)
« Last Edit: July 08, 2009, 11:04:31 PM by Will MacEwen »

Todd Kuspira

Re: Canada 1930
« Reply #55 on: July 08, 2009, 11:20:13 PM »
Bob,
The winner of the Canadian Open at your club was Pat Fletcher.  Also, there are photos of Jericho that are available from the City of Vancouver Archives.

Todd


Okay, forgive my west coast bias.

Consider Peace Portal Golf Course. Completed in 1928, it is located at the US / Canada border. The architect credited with laying out the course (not sure about the actual design) is someone called Francis James. Never heard of him before. As you will see from the website, PPGC was founded by a Seattle businessman so James may have been from that area.

Peace Portal is a very enjoyable course. A new clubhouse was built about 20 years ago and holes were renumbered but I gather the course has changed very little. 6400+ yards, undulating terrain and public. It is still one of the best if not the best public courses around this part of the world.  www.peaceportalgolf.com

Also, my home course, Point Grey G&CC was founded in 1922 and has been one of the better private courses in Vancouver ever since. Although there have been changes in the layout over the years, no doubt that around 1930, it would have been considered one of the best and is currently in great shape. Hosted many tourneys including a Canadian Open in 1954 when it was last won by a Canadian. I think his name was Norm Fletcher.

Re the Royal Colwood vs. Victoria comments, having played both, there could be no doubt that Colwood is the better course and would have been considered such in 1930. Today, the bunkers need work and that is in the works but it is still a great track and as a design, it provides a much better test of golf. Great routing, fascinating greens, it is the subject of an excellent and recent "In My Opinion" piece by Dale Jackson. Victoria Club, on the other hand, is a heck of a lot of fun, has several holes edging along the rocky edge of the ocean and provides an incredible setting. It is NOT, by any means, of the quality of golf course that Royal Colwood would have been in 1930 or now. Victoria is built on very little land and has some great holes and is a great experience, just not the quality of golf course as Colwood. I also understand Macan was a long time member but he arrived in Victoria after Victoria was built. I understand he made some modifications to the course but the routing and original design is, I understand, credited to the "members" of the club in the early 1890s.

Regards,

Bob Jenkins

Dale Jackson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Canada 1930
« Reply #56 on: July 09, 2009, 12:17:43 AM »
Although Corley-Smith does not credit Macan with much of this work, the club views itself largely as a Macan design and certainly some of the greens are very typical of him.


Dale, I was until recently a member of a Macan course in Portland (Columbia-Edgewater), and wonder what you see as as "..greens..typical of him."?  I am seriously interested as I saw nothing consistent in style at CECC and haven't played any other Macan courses except California Club.  Please elaborate!  ;D



I have played CECC once and have discussed the course with two or three members.  In playing the course and through discussions, it seems likely there is very little left of the original greens, they mostly have a more modern feel.  The routing though is pure Macan, there is something to way he built courses that brings a similarity from course to course.  I have played a fair number of his courses - Shaughnessy, Fircrest, Inglewood and some others and I always feel somehow "at home".  I can't explain it but have talked to others who feel the same way.

What makes a Macan green?  He wrote an article on the subject which I can post if anyone is interested.  He also published bits and pieces in other articles two of which I will quote.  These were dug up by Mike Riste from the BC Golf Museum and Jeff Mingay.

"I design some of my greens to suit the run-up type of shot. This is one of the great shots in golf, but very few of today's top players can execute it. That is why they criticize my work."

"Today, the uninformed believe a green should be constructed with the slope from back to front, so that it will retain the ball. In brief, this suggests the shot should be a mechanical operation and the result a mathematical certainty. This is not the game of golf. Golf was not conceived as a mechanical operation but rather full of fun and adventure. Many things could happen to the ball after it pitched on the green. The ill-happenings were not regarded as ill-fortune or ill-luck, but part of the adventure, and the more skilled found methods to overcome the risks of ill-fortune."

I would say his trademarks regarding greens would be:

- greens are mostly open in front (except perhaps short par 3s and 4s) to allow a run up shot.
- he made liberal use of false fronts, sides and backs
- he frequently built greens sloping front to back
- he was not afraid to slope greens quite severely - we have 2 greens at Royal Colwood that were rebuilt as green speeds increased and there are more examples at other courses)
- to me, though, the biggest feature he used was a lot of internal movement in the greens, slopes and ridges did not flow from the surrounds into the greens but are frequently contained within the greens themselves

For me Macan was a genius at routing, probably as good at building greens and saw bunkering as a necessary feature but did not embrace them with the artistry of Mackenzie or Tillinghast.
I've seen an architecture, something new, that has been in my mind for years and I am glad to see a man with A.V. Macan's ability to bring it out. - Gene Sarazen

henrye

Re: Canada 1930
« Reply #57 on: July 09, 2009, 01:00:13 AM »
What were the best courses in Canada in 1930?

Is 1930 a good date or should it be later or earlier?



Bigwin was a 9-holer and I don't think it was very special.  There were only a few courses in the Muskoka's in the 30's and Thompson's Muskoka Lakes has to have been considered the best of the bunch.  Perhaps someone with knowledge could narrow down Tom's list.  There's a lot of mediocre courses listed there.

Adam_F_Collins

Re: Canada 1930
« Reply #58 on: July 09, 2009, 01:30:26 AM »

Jeff,

I recall hearing of a course which I think is along the Quebec border with Vermont, on native lands, that does go back and forth between the US and Canada. I may be wrong but I think that is the case.

I don't know about native lands, but the course crossing the border between Quebec and Vermont is Richford, the first of the Thompson courses which were to lie across the U.S. / Canada border to allow drinking in the clubhouse during prohibition. I think Francis Ouimet was in on that project somehow...

There are only 9 rough holes left there now from what I understand, but it was the first course I ever played when my grandfather introduced me to golf. Odd that I would end up spending my life between the two countries...

A

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Canada 1930
« Reply #59 on: July 09, 2009, 07:08:22 AM »

Jeff,

I recall hearing of a course which I think is along the Quebec border with Vermont, on native lands, that does go back and forth between the US and Canada. I may be wrong but I think that is the case.

I seem to recall reading a course of that description, and it was very popular during prohibition.

Gary Slatter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Canada 1930
« Reply #60 on: July 09, 2009, 07:28:33 AM »

Okay, forgive my west coast bias.

Consider Peace Portal Golf Course. Completed in 1928, it is located at the US / Canada border. The architect credited with laying out the course (not sure about the actual design) is someone called Francis James. Never heard of him before. As you will see from the website, PPGC was founded by a Seattle businessman so James may have been from that area.

Peace Portal is a very enjoyable course. A new clubhouse was built about 20 years ago and holes were renumbered but I gather the course has changed very little. 6400+ yards, undulating terrain and public. It is still one of the best if not the best public courses around this part of the world.  www.peaceportalgolf.com

Also, my home course, Point Grey G&CC was founded in 1922 and has been one of the better private courses in Vancouver ever since. Although there have been changes in the layout over the years, no doubt that around 1930, it would have been considered one of the best and is currently in great shape. Hosted many tourneys including a Canadian Open in 1954 when it was last won by a Canadian. I think his name was Norm Fletcher.

Re the Royal Colwood vs. Victoria comments, having played both, there could be no doubt that Colwood is the better course and would have been considered such in 1930. Today, the bunkers need work and that is in the works but it is still a great track and as a design, it provides a much better test of golf. Great routing, fascinating greens, it is the subject of an excellent and recent "In My Opinion" piece by Dale Jackson. Victoria Club, on the other hand, is a heck of a lot of fun, has several holes edging along the rocky edge of the ocean and provides an incredible setting. It is NOT, by any means, of the quality of golf course that Royal Colwood would have been in 1930 or now. Victoria is built on very little land and has some great holes and is a great experience, just not the quality of golf course as Colwood. I also understand Macan was a long time member but he arrived in Victoria after Victoria was built. I understand he made some modifications to the course but the routing and original design is, I understand, credited to the "members" of the club in the early 1890s.

Regards,

Bob Jenkins

I played Royal Colwood and Victoria twice each the same week in 1970 (with Vaughn Trapp Pro, his father was Victoria's HP) and felt at that time they both were really good, Victoria was more fun and that's why we played it twice more! 
Gary Slatter
gary.slatter@raffles.com

Philippe Binette

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Canada 1930
« Reply #61 on: July 09, 2009, 08:54:52 AM »
I think Summerlea GC and Elm Ridge GC were in the Dorval / Dixie area up until the 1940's... then moved out of Montreal island
(I remember seeing old maps of the area and all the private course of Montreal were in that area.

does anybody knows who design those courses, were they any good. 

Phil_the_Author

Re: Canada 1930
« Reply #62 on: July 09, 2009, 09:21:23 AM »
Philippe, Tilly designed Elm Ridge and it opened for play in 1924...

Ian Andrew

Re: Canada 1930
« Reply #63 on: July 09, 2009, 05:31:08 PM »
I think Summerlea GC and Elm Ridge GC were in the Dorval / Dixie area up until the 1940's... then moved out of Montreal island
(I remember seeing old maps of the area and all the private course of Montreal were in that area.

does anybody knows who design those courses, were they any good. 

As Phil said - we lost 36 of Tilly under the airport - although there still are a few holes there today.

The other 36 holes were Royal Montreal. I have posted photos in the past and the Willie Park remodel was pretty cool looking.

Phil_the_Author

Re: Canada 1930
« Reply #64 on: July 09, 2009, 06:20:20 PM »
Ian,

You greatly intrigued me when you stated, "As Phil said - we lost 36 of Tilly under the airport..."

I only know of 18 at Elm Ridge that Tilly did. Are you saying that he did 36 there or that he did 18 at Summerlea?

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Canada 1930
« Reply #65 on: July 10, 2009, 06:35:55 AM »
Canada's early architects are not very well represented on this list, I'm wondering if we are missing some of the contributions of Cumming, Nicole Thompson and some others. Did the famous amateur George Lyon get into design?

Courses for Consideration – East to West

Nova Scotia
Digby Pines – Thompson 1929
Brightwood – Ross 1920

New Brunswick

Algonquin - Ross
Riverside - ? 1897, Ross

Quebec
Mt Bruno - Willie Park Jr 1918, Thompson 1925
Royal Montreal-Dixie course (NLE) – Park 1922
Islesmere – Park 1918
Laval-sur-le-lac – Park 1917, Strong ?
Beaconsfield – ? 1904, Park 1918
Royal Quebec - Park 1922, Strong ?
Royal Ottawa – Park
Seigniory Club (Montebello) – Thompson 1929
Manior Richleau (NLE) – Strong 1925

Ontario

Ottawa Hunt - Park
Cataraqui – 1917 - Thompson - 1930
Toronto GC – Colt 1912, Alison 1922
Hamilton GC  - Colt 1914, Alison 1920
St Georges – Thompson 1929
Shoreacres (NLE) – Thompson 1922
Scarboro GC – Cumming 1912, Tillinghast 1925
Weston - Willie Park Jr 1920
Lambton – Barrett 1902?
Lakeview – Strong 1920
Rosedale – Ross 1919
Bigwin Island – Thompson 1921
Thornhill – Thompson - 1922
Summit – Cumming 1912, Thompson 1920
Mississauga - Barret & Ross 1906, Thompson 1926
Oakdale – Thompson - 1926
York Downs (NLE) – Alison 1922
Brantford – ? 1906, remodel N. Thompson 1920
Westmount – Thompson 1931
Cherry Hill – Travis 1922
Lookout Point – Travis 1922
St. Thomas – Thompson 1922
Essex – Ross 1929

Manitoba

Niakawa – Thompson 1922
Pine Ridge - Ross 1919
St. Charles - Ross (9) 1920, Mackenzie (+9) 1931
Elmhurst - ?  ,Ross 1923

Saskatchewan

Saskatoon - Kinnear 1907
Riverside - Kinnear 1912

Alberta

Mayfair – Thompson 1922
Calgary – ? 1897, Park 1922
Jasper – Thompson 1925, Thompson 1927
Banff Springs – Thompson 1927

British Columbia

Victoria – ? 1910, Macan 1920
Marine Drive – Macan 1922
Royal Colwood – Macan 1913
Jericho (NLE) – Dunthie
Shaughnessy Heights - ? 1911

Ian Andrew

Re: Canada 1930
« Reply #66 on: July 10, 2009, 06:58:48 AM »
Ian,

You greatly intrigued me when you stated, "As Phil said - we lost 36 of Tilly under the airport..."

I only know of 18 at Elm Ridge that Tilly did. Are you saying that he did 36 there or that he did 18 at Summerlea?

I thought the Old Elm Ridge was 36 holes - but I could be wrong.
That's something I can check - I work with the new Elm Ridge.

Ian

Ian Andrew

Re: Canada 1930
« Reply #67 on: July 10, 2009, 07:08:00 AM »
Canada's early architects are not very well represented on this list, I'm wondering if we are missing some of the contributions of Cumming, Nicole Thompson and some others. Did the famous amateur George Lyon get into design?

Tom,

Almost all the great courses appeared in the 1920's - the courses prior were laid out by amatuers and were rudimentary.

The only places that may make the list are a couple of courses by Cumming and N. Thompson like Glenstewart or the original Humber Valley - but I have no idea how good they were and they soon disappeared through urbanization.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Canada 1930
« Reply #68 on: July 10, 2009, 07:30:30 AM »
Ian
I was looking at the venues for the Canadian Am and Open in the early days, like Royal Ottawa, Lambton, Rosedale, and Rivermead, and was wondering if we were missing something. 

Tyler Kearns

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Canada 1930
« Reply #69 on: July 10, 2009, 01:41:56 PM »

Manitoba

Niakawa – Thompson 1922
Pine Ridge - Ross 1919
St. Charles - Ross (9) 1920, Mackenzie (+9) 1931
Elmhurst - ?  ,Ross 1923


Tom,

Pine Ridge was originally designed by Tom Bendelow in 1911. The Ross remodeling plans of 1919 are most notable for implementing an entire bunkering scheme to the course. He designed 6 new greens at added 4 new holes (2 entirely new, 2 are hybrids of 4 existing holes).

Elmhurst already existed as a 9-hole course prior to Ross, but he substantially renovated the existing 9 and added 9 holes to make a full 18.

These two courses are side-by-side in the sandhills NE of Winnipeg. I haven't been able to dig up anything on the Winnipeg GC Inc. which existed in the same region, designed by Willie Park Jr. The course did not exist for too long, but given the topography of the area, it may have been quite good.

TK

Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Canada 1930
« Reply #70 on: July 10, 2009, 10:07:18 PM »
I believe Rosedale is similar to Pine Ridge - first laid out be Bendelow and then renovated/redone by Ross.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Canada 1930
« Reply #71 on: July 11, 2009, 09:40:16 AM »
What is the story with Royal Ottawa and Ottawa Hunt?

Courses for Consideration – East to West

Nova Scotia
Digby Pines – Thompson 1929
Brightwood – Ross 1920

New Brunswick
Algonquin - Ross ?
Riverside - ? 1897, Ross

Quebec
Mt Bruno - Park 1918, Thompson 1925
Royal Montreal-Dixie (NLE) – Park 1922
Islesmere – Park 1918
Laval-sur-le-lac – Park 1917, Strong ?
Beaconsfield – Bendelow 1909, Park 1918
Royal Quebec - Park 1922, Strong ?
Royal Ottawa – Bendelow 1903, Park ?
Seigniory Club (Montebello) – Thompson 1929
Manior Richleau (NLE) – Strong 1925
Kanawaki - Murray 1913

Ontario
Ottawa Hunt - Park 1924
Cataraqui – Cumming 1917, Thompson 1930
Toronto GC – Colt 1912, Alison 1922
Hamilton GC  - Colt 1914, Alison 1920
St Georges – Thompson 1929
Shoreacres (NLE) – Thompson 1922
Scarboro GC – Cumming 1912, Tillinghast 1925
Weston - Willie Park Jr 1920
Lambton – Bendelow 1902
Lakeview – Strong 1920
Rosedale – Bendelow 1909, Ross 1919
Bigwin Island – Thompson 1921
Thornhill – Thompson - 1922
Summit – Cumming 1912, Thompson 1920
Mississauga - Barret 1906, Ross 1919, Thompson 1926
Oakdale – Thompson - 1926
York Downs (NLE) – Alison 1922
Brantford – ? 1906, N. Thompson 1919
Cherry Hill – Travis 1922
Lookout Point – Travis 1922
St. Thomas – Thompson 1922
Essex – Ross 1929

Manitoba
Niakawa – Thompson 1922
Pine Ridge - Bendelow 1911, Ross 1919
St. Charles - Bendelow 1905, Ross 1919, Mackenzie 1929
Elmhurst - Ross 1923

Saskatchewan
Saskatoon - Kinnear 1907
Riverside - Kinnear 1912

Alberta
Mayfair – Thompson 1922
Calgary – Bendelow 1913, Park 1922
Jasper – Thompson 1925, Thompson 1927
Banff Springs – Thompson 1927

British Columbia
Victoria – ? 1910, Macan 1920
Marine Drive – Macan 1922
Royal Colwood – Macan 1913
Jericho (NLE) – Dunthie
Shaughnessy Heights - ? 1911

« Last Edit: July 12, 2009, 09:00:04 AM by Tom MacWood »

Philippe Binette

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Canada 1930
« Reply #72 on: July 11, 2009, 10:36:02 AM »
I wonder what Country Club of Montreal looked like in 1930 (dates back 1909), the clubhouse was on the edge of St-Lawrence river, no housing around it, no street in the middle of the course, probably a more open field... must have been cool

Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Canada 1930
« Reply #73 on: July 11, 2009, 11:47:29 AM »
Tom,

I was stunned by the potential at Royal Ottawa when I visited a number of years ago.

It's a very cool place; wonderful old clubhouse that serves as a backdrop to the 18th; pretty good topo throughout the property; and, some really cool old-fashion features, including some big fillpads built up for greens... almost in the "Raynor style", for lack of a better way to describe them. You can see the putting surfaces on these particular pads were originally big rectangles. These days they're tiny circles atop these rectangular pads. Looks really silly, actually. 

Back to your question, seems like Royal Ottawa could have been a pretty good course "back in the day"... before renovations (the course features a hodgepodge of styles these days), tree planting, etc. I'm certain that if the "look and feel" of the original golf course design were properly "restored" more golf architecture aficionados would be talking about Royal Ottawa today.

As for Ottawa Hunt, the entire course was redone by Tom McBroom many years ago. I don't think any of the original Willie Park Jr. stuff is left; and, I don't know how good the original Park design was.
jeffmingay.com

Ian Andrew

Re: Canada 1930
« Reply #74 on: July 11, 2009, 12:17:12 PM »
I believe Rosedale is similar to Pine Ridge - first laid out be Bendelow and then renovated/redone by Ross.

It's still mostly a Bendelow - Ross rebuilt 11 greens before the 1926 Canadian Open.

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