Are there any truly great sharp dogleg holes?

[Ed Oden]

I'm talking doglegs approaching a 90 degree turn.  Off the top of my head, the only one I can think of is #13 at ANGC.  Surely there are others that fall into the "great hole" catagory.  Are sharly doglegging holes among the most difficult to design?  It seems few stand out as among the best holes on their course, much less among the best holes in golf.

Ed  

[Sean_A]

Ed

Part of your question relies on people liking sharp leggers.  I think my tendency is to like the ones which offer a chance of cutting the corner or riding some contours around the corner - this usually means the dogleg can't be defined by trees.  I do think its hard to design these holes well because what often happens is if a guy gets caught out of position on the tee he can only layup to the corner or just pop one over the turn - that isn't much fun. 

The concept works well at Deal's 6th, Pennard's 10th and a host of other holes which tend to be short par 4s.  There is the odd case like St Enodoc's 10th.  I think it works well BECAUSE its so controversial from the tee.  The second is where the legger contours kick in make the hole what it is - heroic without having to make a dangerous carry - the best kind of heroic in my mind.

Ciao 

[Mark_F]

This one's pretty good. Peninsula North 8th hole.

             

351 metres from the back tee.  Possibly driveable for big hitters, as it has that sharp dogleg as well as running downhill.  Open teeshot, but with horrific trouble left of the bunkers.

The green is pretty good - very subtle, with a lot of little folds off and slightly into the green. 

[Pete_Pittock]

What about the 13th hole, "Waterloo" at The Dunes in Myrtle Beach? Right angled with a big lake to the inside.

[Josh Stevens]

Well Royal Melbourne West 6th turns damn near 90 degrees if you take the safe line left of the bunkers into the fat part of the fairway.  And that is the problem with the question - a dogleg to one person is not a dogleg to another person who can bomb it over the corner.  In that respect therefore i guess Agusta 13th is a better example as you have to shape the ball around rather than bomb it over, so it plays as a dogleg for everybody.

[Scott Warren]

There is the odd case like St Enodoc's 10th.  I think it works well BECAUSE its so controversial from the tee.  The second is where the legger contours kick in make the hole what it is - heroic without having to make a dangerous carry - the best kind of heroic in my mind.

Ciao 

I have to continue to disagree with you on St E #10, Sean.

Firstly, it's a 20 degree bend at best.

There may not be a lake or a bunker to carry, but there is definitely lost-ball rough to carry if you go at the green. I'm not convinced those contours right of the putting surface are strong enough to feed a ball on that hasn't already been hooked in over the side of the hill.

Deal 6 is a good example.

[Ben Stephens]

The 3rd at St. Enodoc is quite sharp downhill dogleg left - more of a dogleg than the 10th. But I wouldn't call them truly great sharp dogleg holes.

The ones that comes to my mind are

the ones that I have played

7th at Ganton - which is quite similar to Royal Melbourne's West 6th.
12th at Ganton - is a tight dogleg right with a carry over the trees!
13th at Pyle and Kenfig
18th at Belfry

the ones that I have not played

18th at Royal Dublin
18th at Emirates

[Mike Boehm]

I am a big fan of the 15th at Oakland Hills, a sharp dogleg left of about 400 yards.  It has two fairway bunkers at the turn of the dogleg (only on FW bunker prior to the Rees Jones remodel of the hole) that gives the player the option of carrying bunkers to leave a wedge or less into a wild green, laying up short of the traps leaving about a 6-iron into the hole or trying to get along the sides of the traps.  The bunkers themselves are quite deep and will, in general, make getting to the green very difficult/impossible.  Good options from the tee, a great green and a true reward for taking on the challenge of the bunkers.

[Scott Warren]

New South Wales GC #3 is a great one, IMO. But I know most of the other Aussies on this board disagree with me...

[Bart Bradley]

Ed:

I like #16 at Grandfather pretty well...ithe ground slope can help you cut it around the corner...it would probably be better if the trees on the inside of the dogleg were thinned a bit and if the tee were moved slightly more to the left.

Bart

[Jim Franklin]

#6 at Five Farms is one of Tilly's best par 5s. 584 from the back and you aim over a barn to cut off os much as you can bite. I made eagle there the other day hitting 3 wood, 3 wood to 6 feet.

[Gary Slatter]

I think the first hole at Hoylake is a unique dog leg hole!   The two times that I played it you had to be careful not to run the ball too far straight and to cut the corner required too much carry, a fade was the required shot.  Is thee 18th at Royal Dublin still a sharp dog leg hole?  I remember being surprised by the hole but enjoyed it.

[Greg Krueger]

#10 at Hazeltine is my favorite. Gorgeous hole with some bite.

[Mark Pearce]

Numbers 6 and 8 at Muirfield.

[Bill_McBride]

Numbers 6 and 8 at Muirfield.

Mark, I agree those are terrific dogleg holes, both of them, but neither could really be called "sharp," by which Ed Oden meant "approaching 90^o" when he started the thread.



I think Ed's asked a really good question, because I don't think there ARE many good or great holes that meet that criterion.  The first at Hoylake feels like 90^o but it's really closer to 45^o.   The photo Scott Warren posted of that hole in NSW is the closest I can recall.

[JC Jones]

Would anyone consider #18 at Crystal Downs to be "great"?

[Mark Pearce]

Bill,

Fair enough.

10 at Alwoodley, anyone?

[KBanks]

Merion #15
Brookline #17

Ken

[Jason Topp]

Others disagree but I consider the 18th at the Harvester to be great. 540 from the blues (565 from the back tees).   Prevailing summer wind is behind you off the tee.

The sharp turn allows the decision of whether to go or not go at the green in 2 to be based on accuracy - if you hit your tee ball close to the water, you have 225 in and can have a go either at the green or short left, even for a relatively short hitter such as me.  If you bail out left off the tee, you need to lay up, most likely to the island area.

Off the tee it looks like you could drive the green, but I have never seen anyone come close.  Google Maps measures the distance as 321 from the tee to the middle of the green.

[jonathan_becker]

Jason,

Last summer, when I played the Harvester, 18 was howling down wind.  My one buddy who absolutely kills it off the tee flew a couple balls to the second fw segment.  He tried to get one on the green, but from that angle, the wind was knocking the ball down too quickly. 

Not to sound crazy, but with the correct wind, driving that green might not be out of the realm of possibility.  Hell, remember when Hank Kuehne drove #6 at Bay Hill?

p.s. - your photo of 10 tee at royal melbourne has been in my rotation of wallpapers. I love that photo 

[mike_beene]

Pine Needles 10 is fresh on my mind.

[Sam Maryland]

What do people think of the 3rd at North Hempstead?  Not sure it quite meets the 90* hurdle but it's definintely a hard dogleg.  Green complex way above the fairway makes for a difficult approach on anything less than a full shot so cutting corner is quite risky, but very doable.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

#10 at Royal Birkdale is a great hole.
Usually into the prevailing wind. a very tight driving area, bunkers on the left on the inside of the dogleg.
No option to drive it over the dogleg and then into an elevated tough little green.
Playing there next week so I will return to this thread with pictures upon my return....

[Gene Greco]

#6 at Five Farms is one of Tilly's best par 5s. 584 from the back and you aim over a barn to cut off os much as you can bite. I made eagle there the other day hitting 3 wood, 3 wood to 6 feet.

In complete agreement with Jim.

This is a great hole with the drive over the barn and the cross fairway bunker to deal with on the next and then approach onto a terrific Tilly green. (Evidently, Jim doesn't need to worry about such insignificant things as deep fairway bunkers crossing his line of play)!

[Stan Dodd]

8th at Cypress Point