Devereux Emmet Thread

[Tom MacWood]

Also never in my research of Emmet or anything that I have read was Emmet inspired by Seth Raynor - especially from an individual that was a founding member of NGLA and helped CBM research the great courses of the British Isles that he used for his template holes!!!

Chris

Chris

I find that odd also  is it possible that it is the other way around? that Emmet inspiried Raynor?

I agree. It makes no sense. Emmet had been designing golf courses for almost two decades by the time Raynor got into the act. Emmet was involved in the design of NGLA, and that experience may explain Emmet's use of famous holes.

[Chris_Blakely]

Also never in my research of Emmet or anything that I have read was Emmet inspired by Seth Raynor - especially from an individual that was a founding member of NGLA and helped CBM research the great courses of the British Isles that he used for his template holes!!!

Chris

Chris

I find that odd also  is it possible that it is the other way around? that Emmet inspiried Raynor?

I agree. It makes no sense. Emmet had been designing golf courses for almost two decades by the time Raynor got into the act. Emmet was involved in the design of NGLA, and that experience may explain Emmet's use of famous holes.

Dave,

I believe Tom summed it up best above.  Emmet had been doing for a lot longer than Raynor and without CBM's help.  Emmet used famous holes and even wrote above some of the famous holes he used as inspiration.  However, his use of famous holes seemed to be less template oriented and they often times were quite different.  As for Emmet inspiring Raynor, I am not sure about that - Raynor's courses seem much more template hole based.  Especially the par 3's.

Chris

[Chris_Blakely]

Chris,

You mentioned Huntington CC. Did you know that this was built on the Roy Rainey estate and is the location of one of Tilly's famous "Lilliputt Links"? It evidently didn't survive the building of the new course.

Also, at Wee Burn, on July 2nd 1936, Tilly designed "new holes" for 2, 10 & 11 and an unspecified location for a "new green around the lake." The club is now quite proud of their Tilly connection.

Phillip,

Yes, I knew that it was built on the Roy Rainey estate and the Tilly Liliput links.  Emmet was on the course on two separate occasions once for the original layout (without my notes, I believe 1909) and again to redo the layout and expand the courses signifcantly in 1929 I believe.  This is the course that Robert Emmons was completely involved with restoring at the current Huntington CC which is all Emmet except for the 9th which is Robert Trent Jones hole, the 15th which is a William Mitchell hole and the road hole 7th where Emmet remoldedled the hole and left the green.

As for Wee Burn, I would hope the course would have embraced their wonder Dev Emmet course and not the changes that A.W. Tillinghast did from a historical standpoint!!  As a previous thread delved into (did tilly sell out), it seemed Tillinghast would do anything to design courses and was willing to alter anyone's courses to keep working.  Be that as it may, the course has had Tom Fazio completly redo all of the bunkers.

Chris

[Chris_Blakely]

Jay:

Powelton !!    16 holes
Huntington

Rockaway  Hunting    Tilly did about 7 excellent holes, but the 10 holes by Emmet are very nice

I believe Powelton lost 3 or 4 holes do to the expansion of Interstate I-84 again I would have to look at my notes.  Geoffrey Cornish designed the new holes and they stick out like a sore thumb.  The Emmet greens at Powelton and associated greenside bunkerins are absolutely wild.  The par 4 10th is one of my altime faviorite short par 4's for the green alone, it has to be seen to be believed.

Chris

[Phil_the_Author]

Chris,

Tilly didn't "sell out" as you put it. He received a small salary and traveling expenses from the PGA and that is all. The work done at Wee Burn, which included sketches as well as a written recommendation, was done for nothing, zero, nada... Which is what every single one of the HUNDREDS of clubs he visited, advised and designed or offered renovation advice to during that 25 month service was charged...

As far as you knowing about the Lilliputt Links at the Rainey esteate there I am VERY IMPRESSED! You are the first person I've mentioned it to that did, including other Tilly Association nuts such as myself!  

I always enjoyed playing the Crescent Club...

[Chris_Blakely]

Chris,

Tilly didn't "sell out" as you put it. He received a small salary and traveling expenses from the PGA and that is all. The work done at Wee Burn, which included sketches as well as a written recommendation, was done for nothing, zero, nada... Which is what every single one of the HUNDREDS of clubs he visited, advised and designed or offered renovation advice to during that 25 month service was charged...

As far as you knowing about the Lilliputt Links at the Rainey esteate there I am VERY IMPRESSED! You are the first person I've mentioned it to that did, including other Tilly Association nuts such as myself!  

I always enjoyed playing the Crescent Club...

Phillip,

Please reread my post, I did not say he "sold out," but there was a thread awhile back that got the topic going that I had always wondered about - did he by working for the PGA.  As for this developing into a ridiculous thread about Tilly when it is about Emmet - PLEASE do not do this.  Send me an IM if you want, but don't send us down this path.  I don't care if you think tilly did or did not sell out.  I do wish he did not alter as many courses as he did.

The Crescent Club has been significantly altered from the original 36 hole course that was there.  Alfred Tull did alot of major alterations if I remeber correctly.

Chris

[Dave Falkner]

Chris

I have been thinking that the 10th at St Georges is "influenced " (dont know if that is the right word, perhaps evocative is better) of the Road Hole, I realize that it doesnt have the bunker but the way the road diagonally cuts off the green alwasy makes me think he might have  done a sort of mirror image rendition.  any thoughts?

[Phil_the_Author]

Chris,

My apologies. I am definitely NOT trying to turn this into a Tilly thread, but want to see a good discussion on Emmet. I am of the opinion that he may be the most underrated great golf course architect. I believe his problem was one of timing. If he had been born a decade or so later we might be discussing his courses as the greatest of all...

[Robert Emmons]

Phil,

I believe the Rainey estate was part of Huntington Crescent Club not Huntington CC. We have no record of purchasing from Rainey. Dev did the original design in 1910 with renovations in 1915 to add length and another inthe early 20's then a full scale reno in 1929 utilizing Alfred Tull. Since then one green rebuilt by RTJ Sr and one by Billy Mitchell in 1962...RHE

[Chris_Blakely]

Phil,

I believe the Rainey estate was part of Huntington Crescent Club not Huntington CC. We have no record of purchasing from Rainey. Dev did the original design in 1910 with renovations in 1915 to add length and another inthe early 20's then a full scale reno in 1929 utilizing Alfred Tull. Since then one green rebuilt by RTJ Sr and one by Billy Mitchell in 1962...RHE

Robert,

Sorry, yes, yes, it was the Huntington Crescent club not huntington cc.

Chris

[Phil_the_Author]

Robert,

Believe it or not I have played far too many rounds at the Crescent Club and so when I saw "Huntington CC" my brain simply made a connection it should not have. My apologies as well. Having been born at Huntington Hospital far too many years ago I should be able to distionguish between the two wonderful golf courses!

[John Foley]

John
One possible reason for the difficulty in tracking down Leatherstocking's history could be name changes over the years. If Cooperstown GC is the early name of Letherstocking, it was 18 holes prior to 1919. According to the 1916 Golf Guide Cooperstown GC was 18 holes. And if Cooperstown was originally Otsego GC, that nine dates back to the 1890s.

Tom - Over the winter I stopped by Cooperstown to do a little research at the local library & the NYS Historical Society which is next to the Fienmore Museum & the course. I don't have my notes, but from what I was able to surmise was Cooperstown CC started (possibly) at the Otsego course but actually ended up at another location north east of the city in the hills above Lake Otsego. When the developed the Hotel with a golf course at some time after 1909 & prior to 1919 they cut a deal w/ the Copperstown CC people and brought them onboard. The other course was actually abandoned after they moved into town at the Otsego Hotel location.

Next time I am through I will see about gettting some time with the pro and seeign what they have as resiorces to help piece this together.


BTW - Welcome Back, Glad to have you around!!!

[Jim_Kennedy]

I remembered seeing this video some time ago and thought that it might have some relevance.
The gentleman who posted it might have more info for someone willing to pursue it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2s2K3Oqezho

[Chris_Blakely]

Chris

I have been thinking that the 10th at St Georges is "influenced " (dont know if that is the right word, perhaps evocative is better) of the Road Hole, I realize that it doesnt have the bunker but the way the road diagonally cuts off the green alwasy makes me think he might have  done a sort of mirror image rendition.  any thoughts?

David,

I am not sure on the influence of the 10th at St. George's.  I have notes / club history and am not sure on the 10th.  From the aerial, it looks like it coule be a reverse road hole, but as you noted, it is obviously laking the deep front bunker.  Also, several holes have been changed due to the fact that the clubhouse burned down several times and was moved.  I know for sure the par 3 11th have been altered a lot.
Chris

[mark chalfant]

I forgot to mention Bonnie Briar, in Larchmont which is only 4 miles from Winged Foot. Bonnie Briar is a fabuolous 6,300 yard gem that twists and tumbles over rugged terrain. Amazing vareity of par fours , that are often enriched by a stream,  or semiblind shot requirements.

I think St Georges, Long Island is well preserved. The golf holes from 12-18 there are extremely fun to play. Quite a few wonderful green   comlpexes and rolling terrain provide character at St. Georges.

[Tom MacWood]

I take it Emmet's courses in the Caribbean are long gone or remodeled beyond recognition. Anyone know?

[Chris_Blakely]

I take it Emmet's courses in the Caribbean are long gone or remodeled beyond recognition. Anyone know?

The Radisson Cable Beach golf course was completely rebuilt in 2002.  There is no Emmet elements remaining.

[Chris_Blakely]

I forgot to mention Bonnie Briar,which is about  4 miles  from Winged Foot. Bonnie Briar is a fabuolous 6,300 yard gem  that twists and tumbles over rugged terrain. Amazing vareity of par fours ,which are often enriched by a stream, or semiblind shot requirements.

I think St Georges , Long Island is well preserved.  The golf holes from 12-18 there are extremely fun to play. some  wonderful green   comlpexes  too.

St. George's is a very well preserved Emmet course.