CB Mac vs. Raynor/ Banks greens

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

St. Louis has very special greens complexes.  The character of the greens involves lots of internal humps, bumps, rolls, and slope.  Having played most of the surviving Mac and Raynor courses, I have come to believe that MacDonald's involvement made for superior greens to those of the solo Raynor or Banks courses.  That being said, Fisher's Island, Camargo, and Fox Chapel are significantly better than the rest of the Raynor's I've played, but I am not sure that their greens, even though they are great(Fisher's Island is in my world wide top 20), are quite on the same level as any of the surviving CB courses.
CB's Eden CGC



Raynor's Fairfied

Bank's  Tamarack

[Donnie Beck]

Robert,

I have to agree. IMO MacDonald created the boldest of the three followed by Banks and then Raynor. You can also usually tell MacDonald's greens from the others by the broader shoulders he used on his green pads.

[Patrick_Mucci]

RMD,

Good topic.

Do you think the perceived softening of the greens had anything to do wiith chronology as it relates to the evolution and broadening of the spectrum of golfers ?

I'll be back !

[Jim_Kennedy]

Raynor's greens at Yale have to be some of the boldest from that trio, no?

[Anthony Fowler]

Forgive me for my lack of historical knowledge. 

It is my understanding that Raynor did quite a bit of work at Chicago after CB was long gone.  Does anyone know the extent to which we can fairly attribute Chicago's greens to CB?

[Matt_Ward]

RMD:

You need to see what Banks did with his layout at Forsgate (Jamesburg, NJ). They are still heavily contoured and sectioned off to different areas so that approach shots needs to be quite precise -- ditto also the sheer depth of the greensite bunkers.

[Tom_Doak]

Robert:

One hates to generalize, but in general, I agree with you.  The simple explanation is that Mr. Macdonald was the serious golfer of the three, and he would have placed a greater importance on greens contouring than his proteges did.

Anthony:

You are correct that Raynor rebuilt many of the greens at Chicago Golf.  I have never seen any clear evidence of whether he rebuilt even the greens which remained in situ ... which include some of the more contoured greens on the course (1, 10 especially, 14, 17 and 18).

Jim K:

Yale is usually credited as a Macdonald course, though I do not know how much time he spent on site working on the greens.

[mark chalfant]

Robert,

Overall I think very highly of  Raynor's greens, in addition to the great examples of SR greens that you mentioned the greens at both Westhampton, NY and Dedham (Boston) are exceptional.  While I appreciate CBM greens , I would certainly not agree that his  are "superior" to those crafted by
Seth Raynor.

[mark chalfant]

The ensemble of greens by Charles Banks at Whippoorwill and The Knoll are also outstanding. With the exception of NGLA, I am not aware of a CBM course with green complexes that are superior to set of putting surfaces  at Yeaman's Hall , Westhampton, or Forsgate.



p.s.  Is the photo at CC of Fairfield a hole designed by Raynor or Robert Trent  Jones Sr. ?

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

Though Raynor had a huge involvement at both Yale and Chicago, CB had his name attached to the courses.  I am not saying that all the Raynoor courses were lacking as far as green compexes, but that CB courses were superior.  Whipporwill has wonderful greens, but its nearby neighbor, Sleepy Hollow has better greens.  In Chicago, Shoreacres has blah greens while CGC has awesome greens.  Raynor was involved with both courses but for some reason, CB was involved with the courses with better greens.  The case can be made throughout--Piping  Rock vs. Creek, NGLA vs. Southampton & Westhampton, Old White vs. surrounding Raynor's, Yale vs. Fairfield and Blind Brook.   In spite of this , there are both Raynor and Banks courses that I absolutely love to play.

[Niall C]

Robert:

One hates to generalize, but in general, I agree with you.  The simple explanation is that Mr. Macdonald was the serious golfer of the three, and he would have placed a greater importance on greens contouring than his proteges did.

Tom

Interesting comment. How serious a golfer do you need to be to take design seriously ? I appreciate you were making a general comment however interested to hear how your treatment of green surrounds varied from Nicklaus when you worked with him (for the purposes of this discussion lets assume that JN is the more "serious" golfer)

Niall

[Tom_Doak]

Niall:  All I will say to that is that I care a lot more about the short game than Seth Raynor did.

Mark C:  When you start off "with the exception of NGLA" you are defeating your own argument.  Plus, Jim Urbina and I built the greens at Yeamans Hall, not Raynor.