[Donnie Beck]

After reading the "New Kid" thread it occurred to me that the reason he has never understood Architecture is because 90% of all courses are PURE GARBAGE and should have never been built in the first place. No offense to the GCA's on here but what other profession can have a 90% failure rate and still survive? Fortunately for them the majority of golfers don't know good architecture from bad and just want to brag to their buddies at work about how much it cost to join their fancy little country club. Then they go and spend Millions of dollars on maintenance costs every year and while their poor Superintendent is pulling his hair out trying to figure out how to keep the greens alive and rolling at 11 with the grove of oak trees surrounding 15 of his 18 greens. It is probably a good thing that more golfers don't know anything about architecture or the state of Golf in this country would be fair worse than it already is.

[George Pazin]

I guess it depends on how you define pure garbage.

My home muni was built in the 30s and costs $15 to walk 18 during the week. It moves me every time I walk to the starter's window and wait to tee it up.

Maybe I'm just too ignorant to realize its shortcomings. I think it's a beaut, warts and all.

[Scott Warren]

How do you figure it's a 90% failure rate? That strikes me as a pretty flat statement.

Golf courses are built for golfers to play and enjoy. If golfers are doing that on a course, it is a success. How's it your place to tell golfers what they should like or look for in a course? Or that the reason they like their course is 'wrong'?

[Andy Troeger]

I think I could find something positive to say (positive enough to make me willing to play it again) about at least 90% of the places I've seen. Some of the rounds that are the most fun aren't architectural masterpieces, but they're fun to play and maybe even allow me to shoot a decent score (especially compared to the better ones that beat me up).

[Andrew Summerell]

Donnie,

I think there are quite a few good courses out there, but they are not always the high profile ones & they sometimes take a bit of finding.

Golf meets the needs of so many different personalities. For some people it’s all about the score; others it’s the prestigious surrounding; some are interested in what the pros are doing while others are into the latest equipment. Of course, most of us on here are into golf course architecture, but we seem to be a minority in the golfing world.

Although I would like to see better quality architecture across the board, I don’t believe the successful future of the game is solely reliant on GCA.




Anyway, I’m content to let people enjoy what they enjoy. It often works to my advantage, as I am happy to stay away from their resorts & they can’t stand my blind holes & quirk & firm grounds conditions that may look a little brown from time to time.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Donnie,

Play of "The game" probably obscures a good degree of the quality of the architecture.

I think you've hit on an interesting subject.

The compartmentalized attribution or weighting of merit, the collection of factors that conspire to attract us back for more .

There's:

The architecture
The condition of the playing surfaces.
The condition of the non-playing surfaces.
The internal vistas
The external vistas
The WIND
The GAME.
The time.
The company (optional)

Quite often, the "architectural factor can be negligible, yet, the outcome quite positive.

Would my match against TEPaul, Ran and Tom Huckaby be that much less of a special experience, if instead of playing at Wild Horse  and Sand Hills, we played at a mediocre to poor muni ?

Would my execution be diminished ?

Would my scoring suffer ?

I think mediocre to bad architecture survives because of the other elements that comprise "The Game"

[Jeff Evagues]

I guess it depends on how you define pure garbage.

My home muni was built in the 30s and costs $15 to walk 18 during the week. It moves me every time I walk to the starter's window and wait to tee it up.

Maybe I'm just too ignorant to realize its shortcomings. I think it's a beaut, warts and all.

George, which course would that be?

[Donnie Beck]

George,

With approximately 13,000 golf courses in this country there are numerous hidden gems out there but in reality the number of uninspiring courses by far outnumbers the interesting ones. I do not for a second doubt your home course isn’t fun and exciting to play. In fact I think golf needs more course like yours and needs to get back to its roots of more natural and affordable golf. Golf cannot continue down its current path of perfectly manicured expectations.

[ed_getka]

Donnie probably isn't too far off the mark when it comes to great architecture which is what this is about as related to someone new to the site asking how to recognize great architecture. Who can claim that of all the courses in the world that more than 10% are great? I wouldn't go so far as to claim the rest is garbage because not every course strives to be great. Some courses are on pretty mundane land, but they provide a course in the community and that serves a valid purpose. Sure, you can find something of architectural interest in most if not all courses, but we are talking about great golf architecture.
   Another way of looking at this is to think about some of the great courses you have seen in your travels. Once you began to see great architecture did you still find it as appealing to play the same courses you did in the past?
  

[Trey Stiles]

How about 5% Wonderful , 10% Very Good , 70% Good , 10% Need Impv , 5% Terrible.

Having been involved in the development side of a few courses and the operational side of a bunch , I'm always impressed by the way Architects , Engineers , Shapers and Superintendents overcome significant challenges. Sometimes it's really easy to throw rocks at the team's work , but when you see the obstacles that were overcome you cut them some slack.

Speaking of terrible , about 20 yrs ago , I took over a course that had been voted worst golf course in America , it really was awful and we made it worse by rebuilding much of the course without closing holes ... Funny thing , during construction , we did 10,000 rounds one month. We gave the golfers a great deal , asked them to excuse the noise from the dozers and they loved seeing their old course getting fixed up. The new course really was not that great , but it served it's purpose and golfers still get their fix there.

[Andrew Summerell]

I do not for a second doubt your home course isn’t fun and exciting to play. In fact I think golf needs more course like yours and needs to get back to its roots of more natural and affordable golf.

Well said. Good architecture doesn’t need to be flash looking or expensive to play.

[ed_getka]

George,

 Golf cannot continue down its current path of perfectly manicured expectations.

Golf also cannot continue down its path of golfers trying to emulate tour pros. I witnessed the most ridiculous thing the other day while out golfing. I came up behind a foursome playing a par 3 of 150 yards. An absolutely benign hole without any hazard. 3 of the four golfers missed the green, but then collectively took at least 3-4 minutes to line up the marks on their balls. They all missed their putt of course.

[George Pazin]

Golf cannot continue down its current path of perfectly manicured expectations.

I couldn't agree more with this sentiment, and I think far too many confuse a perfectly manicured course with a great course. And in a sense, I think there is some garbage out there that is confused with greatness, due to a perfect manicure job.

Jeff -

North Park Golf Course, a county muni about 15 miles north of Pittsburgh. It's a wonderful walk in the park - literally, North Park eats up quite a bit of acreage in my community - but nothing much to speak of architecturally.

Wish I was there right now...

[Patrick_Mucci]

Golf cannot continue down its current path of perfectly manicured expectations.

Agreed.

But, what worries me more is the disfiguring of superior putting surfaces, surfaces with incredible character, interest and challenge, in the need to accomodate speed

[Tom_Doak]

Trey:

Sorry, but I can't buy your 70% Good number.  You really think there's only one course in six that is totally boring?

Of course everything depends on your standard of excellence, but I have got to believe that more than half the courses in America could be dramatically improved if anyone gave a crap about it -- which just goes to prove, sadly, that most people don't give a crap.

[Andrew Summerell]

   Another way of looking at this is to think about some of the great courses you have seen in your travels. Once you began to see great architecture did you still find it as appealing to play the same courses you did in the past?
  

Ed, I had to answer this question. I live in Sydney where there is only one course (in a city of 4 million people) that I would actually want to play on a regular basis. If it wasn't for my regular opportunities to travel, I would almost prefer not to have played all the great courses I've been lucky enough to play, just so I could turn up to the many ordinary courses in this fair city & be totally ignorant.

[Donnie Beck]

No.... I honestly think 90% of all golf course are really that bad...
 
Great maintenance cannot hide poor architecture...... but poor maintenance cannot hide great architecture!

[Peter Pallotta]

Donnie - I don't know if you're right or even close to right, but my fear is that, given the lack of genuine interest in and expressions of Quality in this world, across the board, in every endeavour, our choice might not be between 90% crap and 40% crap, but between having golf courses to play and NOT having golf courses to play. Now, believe me, I'm no lover of things mediocre: when I have a choice -- with the books I read and the music I listen to, for example -- I just keep going back to the same 1% of work that I consider great rather than be constantly irked by work that doesn't truly inspire me. But goodness, with all the dynamics involved in creating and sustaining golf courses, I have to admit that I'm usually happy to play anything I can (while keeping a hawk-like eye out for a local favourite...which i think I recently found.)

Peter

[Andrew Summerell]

most people don't give a crap.

I agree, but is that a problem - or just what golf is?

[Bill_McBride]

Would I rather play Cypress Point, Pebble Beach or Pacific Dunes?

Damn straight!

But give me 18 tees and 18 greens and some interesting lines off the tees and I'll have a fun day out there.

Golf has to be fun.

[Donnie Beck]

Golf cannot continue down its current path of perfectly manicured expectations.

Agreed.

But, what worries me more is the disfiguring of superior putting surfaces, surfaces with incredible character, interest and challenge, in the need to accomodate speed

Pat,

I cannot for the life of me figure that one out.

Every golf hole has a Tee and Green.  At the very least, even on the worst property there is no excuse for boring greens.

[George Pazin]

Some people think boring greens are a better test for better golfers...

And 50% of people don't give enough of a crap to vote on issues that actually affect their lives, why would anyone expect anyone to give a crap about golf courses when the game itself is so much fun?

[Trey Stiles]

Trey:

Sorry, but I can't buy your 70% Good number.  You really think there's only one course in six that is totally boring?

Of course everything depends on your standard of excellence, but I have got to believe that more than half the courses in America could be dramatically improved if anyone gave a crap about it -- which just goes to prove, sadly, that most people don't give a crap.

Tom , 

Yeah , I'm setting the bar pretty low with 70% Good ( and I'm not stuck on that % )  ... But I'm defining good as something that people have a good time playing , decent routing , decent drainage , decent angles , decent movement , decent green / tee  complexes.

In regard to somebody giving a crap about a course .... I've had my hat handed to me ( $$$$ ) by giving a crap .... In 1992 , I bought a truly terrible golf course to do a turn around ... The 1st year showed a dramatic increase in revenue just by blocking and tackling , cleaning the place up , regular mowing intervals , weed control , ect .... Over the next few yrs , we laid miles of drains , poured miles of cart paths , installed a new irrigation system , expanded irrigation detention , rebuilt numerous tees and greens , ect .... I wanted to keep it up and do bunkers , add features , rebuild more greens , ect but I could not get a return on my remodel investments .... It just turned out that the market just wanted something clean , neat , decent and inexpensive .... I could have turned it into a much better course , but the majority of the market just would not pay over $ 35.00 to play golf.

[Mike_Young]

Donnie,
Agree....
But the fact is that 98% of the golfers could care less about architecture..what they have come to associate with good architecture is the maintenance conditions that some of the big names are able to demand in their products by the developer or owner.....and in many cases when the developer is not selling lots and has no hope of selling lots for a while then these conditions may deteriorate a little.....JMO

[Ben Sims]

I agree Donnie.  Funny thing is, your initial post pissed me off and I ruminated on it over dinner.  I guess what upset me was that, its true. 

The dude I played golf with today made an astute observation when he said that if the greens are in good condition, and you have a "name" on the back of the scorecard, then that's all it takes for 90% of the golfers out there.  It sucks when we act as though golf courses are more than just grounds for the game.  I love golf courses--let me reiterate, I love golf courses--but its very subjective for a hell of a lot of golfers out there.  In effect, no one knows what the hell they're talking about unless they actually design and build courses.  I'll admit that even though I consider myself in touch with what's good and what isn't, I learned more in one day on a golf course today than I've learned in a month on the site.  It was simply due to someone making the effort to educate me. 

 By the way, you guys need to get down to Long Shadow in Georgia and see some cool features on some cool golf holes. 

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