Erin Hills - playable but still under construction w/ pictures

[Will Peterson]

This is my first original post.  I apologize for some of the pictures, I used my middle of the road cell phone camera and my father kept walking in front of me.  I didn't realize they were in reverse order until they were all posted, sorry.  I decided to post all of them because of the interest I have seen from the site for Erin Hills.

I had the chance to play Erin Hills yesterday for the first time.  I knew they were doing some renovations and that they just opened, but I was not expecting so much of the work still on-going.  The course was very playable.  There were considerable areas of sod on greens, tee, and fairways but nearly all played well.  The greens did not look good, but they putted smooth and with a nice pace, especially for the contours.  The fairways were a little shaggy, but still ran pretty well.  The only thing really missing was all the fescue.

I had been looking forward to playing to course for some time because I had heard such a wide variety of comments about it, everything from perfect to terrible.  I really liked the course, but found some things that did not make much sense.  Overall, both my father and I really enjoyed the course.  We both found it challenging from our appropriate set of tees, and had a lot of fun with difficult spots we found ourselves.  I also now see why there has been such a heated debate about the course.  It can definitely be a love / hate type of place.  I did play well, so that always makes the memories fonder.  I plan to return, and want to see it firm and fast when it is grown in.  I would not want to go back on a busy weekend, as it is just too difficult for the average golfer to make it around in a reasonable amount of time, and with the problem of playing the wrong tees in everyday play, I could not imagine what you would find here.  We saw a group at the back tee on 18, not one reached the fairway.  I imagine this was not an unusual sight.  

I will start with my dislikes:

-tees.  Why would you have a set at 8348, 7945, 7258, 6838, 5631, and 4810?  Who would say, "I'll go to 7900 with you but just can't do 8300?"  Where does the 12-15 handicap play from?  Where is the 6000-6300 for seniors / high handicaps / skilled ladies?  The course is already difficult enough, are you courting 6 hour rounds? (We did play in 4:15, and the day was very enjoyable, but if it were busy it could get ugly.)

-par 73.  I just don't like them.

-#1.  Really did not like this hole.  What is with that tree?  Maybe my reaction makes it a good hole?  Didn't Mackenzie say something to that effect?

-linksy?  It is not a links course.  It doesn't play like a links.  I only make this comment because much of what I have read has touted the course as an Irish links.  I found that there was not a lot of strategy involved.  You had to hit it to certain areas of fairways that would usually feed to a common area.  Most of the fairways were narrow, even after widening, and the large slope effectively made them even smaller.  Nearly all the greens needed to be hit from the air; very few spots to run it up and most of the slopes around greens would send the ball the wrong direction.  Some of the larger greens will allow you to hit certain areas and feed to ball to other parts, but that is about all you would do on the ground.

-some of the bunkers.  I am of the opinion that a bunker should be a hazard and some sort of penalty should be incurred for entering one, but some of the bunkers seemed to be almost overly penal.  Many of them were too narrow to get a stance.  Many of the sides are too steep to try and stand on, and there is probably a 50/50 chance that you won't really be able to make much of a swing at it.  If you have 175+ in a fairway bunker, you should at least be able to get a stance and advance it 100+.  If that chunky grass around the traps grows in thick, many balls will be lost right next to the bunker.  You should not loose your ball within a few feet of a bunker.

What I liked:

-movement.  The fairways were amazing.  The way they rose and fell with all the humps and bumps.  I found myself on many of them thinking about how most new courses would have just flatten them out a bit or smoothed them into gentler rises and falls.

-green complexes.  I like most of them.  I thought the short par 4's green were well done.  The area around the second and the 15th were superb.  15 was my favorite hole, although I don't know how much I would have liked it with the original green.  The new slope is still rather severe, but playable.  Many of the longer holes had open areas in front.  The ball would not usually bounce the right direction, but at least there was a chance to get to the back of the green or to a reasonable chipping area.  The big greens were a lot of fun, 3,7,10,14,18.  The new 10th is great.  It looks like a modern biarritz green with the ability to put pins on the front, middle, and back.  The drop is 4-5 feet.

-par 3s.  I loved them.  It was great to see a course that has been built with a ridiculous amount of length to build a variety of par 3's that require a range of clubs.  I liked the 6th green that ran away from front to back.  9 was a fun short hole were a two or five is equally possible with a wedge to 8 in your hand.  16 was my favorite par 3.  The green was simple but great, and the surrounds were perfect.

Back of 18 green


18 bunker construction


18 green approach


18


17 approach


17 tee


16 side of green


15


14 green


14


13


12 looking back from green


12 green


12 tee


11


10 green


10


9


8 green


construction


not sure, 8 I think


new bunker


6


4 green


4


3 green


2 green


2 tee


behind 1 green


1


clubhouse


1

[Mike Wagner]

Will,

Glad you liked EH!  Too bad i didn't know you were out - I would have intorduced myself.

I played afer the last group and the greens were still perfect after 150 players.  Did you mean the new greens?

Mike

[Cliff Hamm]

Did the caddies dressed in Augusta look alike jump suits add to the experience? 

[Will Peterson]

Mike - On the greens, I thought they looked rough (lots of sod lines and other marks), but they played nicely.  They all rolled smoothly and there was not a noticable difference from the new and old green, or parts of greens as some had a bit of both.  With only 28 putts, they had to be rolling nicely.

Cliff - Our caddie experience was mixed.  He was a nice guy and worked hard.  It was his first day out so he did not know the course very well, it did cost me on a couple of lay-ups.  There was a complete lack of knowledge that would be useful to a low handicap player.  He had a tip sheet, but all of it was for the high handicapper.  We got lost between two holes and had to ask a maintence worker how to get the next tee.  I was not pleased with the pricing system.  Without going into detail, I felt the "suggest gratuity" was more of a set number and they were priced like single loops when you had to take a double.  I think that there is no better way to play golf than with a caddie and take one whenever they are available, but after our expreience I would be hesitant to recommend them at the course.  Too expensive for what you get.  (I was told that they have some Augusta caddies, so maybe we were just a little unlucky in the draw.)  I was also told that the caddie services are run by an outside vendor.  Each time I have had an exprience with one of these companies, it has been poor to average.

[Cliff Hamm]

Will...thanks for the response.  I did not expect one.  I just have this thing about clubs dressing their caddies like Augusta. My son spends his summers caddying and I too looped when I was so much younger.  I am a huge advocate of caddies.  I just have a problem with the jump suit attire, as if this gives a club more prestige. 

[Josh Stevens]

Early days i suppose, but those bunkers look bloody awful.  Far too many of them and all with those little frilly edges that seem to be flavour of the month.  Perhaps it needs time

[Dan Moore]

Played yesterday and will have a seperate post detailing the changes when I get my photos organized.

The course looks very rough right now, but plays much better than it looks.  

Then only real issue from a playability standpoint are the newly sodded green areas which affect 2, 4, 10, and 15 the most.  Except on the brand new 4th green, the pins won't be placed in sodded areas for the foreseable future.  All the other greens are in very fine shape.  They don't have them up to speed yet, otherwise there would be too much of a difference between the sodded areas and the normal areas, but had to be around 9-10 in any event.  

The new tees on 8 are still being built so it still plays as it did before, a 472 yard par 4/5.  The Dell hole is gone.  

Another big change is the remediation they are doing on the areas of long grass.  All the long stuff has been cut back and new areas of fescue aree being added to the edges of the fairways.  These areas in particular look very unfinished and raw.  However from a playability standpoint this is a huge improvement.  Before a wayward drive was gone, gone, gone.  Now you can not only find it but most of the time have a reasonable play.  While not attractive now, when it finally grows in will improve the look of the course significantly.  IMHO, this improvement in playability balances out any of the rough spots due to the ongoing construction.  

Josh,  the new bunker edges have not grown in at all.  That will take time.  They do not however look like frilly edged bunkers now in vogue.  These are deep pits.  Nasty was the term most frequently employed by my friends.  Enter at your own risk.  I think they fit the scale of the course well.  Eventually I think they may be lined with tall fescue ala County Down; you see a little of that look now on some of the original bunkers.  

All in all I think the course is quite playable right now.  However, if you want perfect conditions I'd wait till next year.  

Here is one photo from yesterday, just so noone thinks the course is purple.

[Steve Kupfer]

All in all I think the course is quite playable right now.  However, if you want perfect conditions I'd wait till next year.  

I'm driving up from Chicago early on a Saturday in September prior to the Packers/Bears on Sunday and was considering spending the day and 36 holes at either Erin Hills or Lawsonia.  Should this news make Lawsonia a no brainer? Particularly given the beautiful conditions seen in Swanson's post last week.

[Mark Smolens]

Frankly a golf course in purple would be fine with me 

[Dan Moore]

Steve, 

Lawsonia usually aerates right after Labor Day so take that into account.  They are 1.5 hours apart.  Its possible to do both the same day. 

Mark,  How would you be able to see your feet.  And your caddie would lose you in the fescue. 

[JWinick]

What bugs me about Erin Hills (and I've yet to play it) is that it's notoriety/popularity/prominence is largely due to undue infuence by Ron Witten & the USGA's desire to have another Midwest US Open option.   I look forward to playing it later this summer to see it lives up to all of this hype.   

[Phil McDade]

What bugs me about Erin Hills (and I've yet to play it) is that it's notoriety/popularity/prominence is largely due to undue infuence by Ron Witten & the USGA's desire to have another Midwest US Open option.   I look forward to playing it later this summer to see it lives up to all of this hype.   

I see Erin Hills as the prototype -- begun in some ways by nearby Whistling Straits -- of what we'll see a lot more of in the future: golf courses designed strictly for major tournament play. As long as the USGA, R&A, and Augusta National continue to turn a blind eye toward the technology/ball issues, you'll see continued demand for longer courses at majors, and for courses that can handle the demands of hosting a major (interrupted play, relief/pratice areas, tent space). That means, in the long run, fewer majors at private courses that can't (or blanch at it) be lengthened (WFoot, Brookline), and more majors at public courses with considerable room for expansion and ability to handle the crowds and tents (Erin Hills, Chambers Bay, WStraits).

[RJ_Daley]

I agree with what JWinick suggests.  I've played it and heard diverse opinions about it by many I respect and whom I feel have a great sense of GCA and competence in the game.  I also think it was pretentious and premature to play to the media before it was even built, with themes like a "potential" major venue, etc.  The idea that it was designed to stretch out to grotesque lengths and render a golf course something not .10% of golfers can really cope with competitively or comfortably in a recreational golf sense, speaks volumes of the GCA mindset in these last few years when it comes to marketing a venue and design philosophies.  The need to do such major renovation at EH at this juncture also give more credence to my charge that they were premature and were playing the public with well placed and cultivated PR media. 

To my way of thinking, to be a major venue, a course needs to be built and played for at least enough years to say it is fully matured before such accolades and boasts are thrown around.  As much as I liked Chambers Bay, and don't care for Erin Hills, both courses got way too much pre-maturity hype, IMHO.  And, both courses still may fall short on maintenance or integrity of design when it comes to being placed in the company of the old courses that would identify the greatest player(s) in the world, rather than some freakfest.  (Chambers turf maturity reports are speculative and still only in the cautiously optimistic stage, and Erin hasn't even got its bones of design and construction set yet with the significant remodel)  Yet, both courses do have optimistic management, and I do hope and wish them well to get it right before they get their 'close-up'.   No one wants to see them fail, unless you have a personal axe to grind with the planners, architects or principle developers or muni planners in CB's case.  I sure don't.

The one thing I do tolerate and can go along with about other courses that have received pre-opening hype by many of us on GCA.com and their architects flogging them subtlely or overtly at places like the Bandon Resorts, or BallyNeal, or many others, is that it really is never stated by those hyping or tauting that the venue will be a future "major" venue.  That makes the hype more fun and is OK marketing in my view.  But, pretentiousness about the classic and enduring worth of some of these others, as "major" sites seems over the top, in my increasingly curmudgeon way of seeing things of late.

Steve, I'd say hell yes, put Lawsonia up on your priority list and find another of many closeby venues to enjoy yet a second round that weekend of Packers Bears game.  I'd also skip EH for at least a year, unless you are a curious cat and not prone to regrets that you could have played a more mature and enjoyable golf course rather than examine a work in progress.

[Phil McDade]

Dick:

I respectfully disagree with some of your points.

-- Re. Bandon and Ballyneal hype. That's really an unfair comparison, truly apples-to-oranges. I doubt Mr. Keiser or the O'Neal brothers ever contemplated landing a major tournament (and the Curtis Cup doesn't count...) at their courses; my sense is that they built those courses for other reasons.

-- The USGA surely bears a great deal of responsibility for the hype, doesn't it? The USGA, after all, is the organization that selected EHills for one of its tournaments (Publinx) even before the darn thing was built; the hype about EHills would surely be lessened if the USGA hadn't come calling. Whether Mr. Whitten and others have an undue influence with the USGA, I don't know. But EHills would likely be another Bull at Pinehurst Farms (upscale course by name designer that's really pretty tough, but pretty much under-the-radar) without the USGA's involvement.

-- It's the USGA, by all indications, that is driving the course changes at EHills. That EHills is going ahead with them doesn't surprise me, but it doesn't necessarily mean that the course ought to be viewed in some diminished way. Lots of "championship" courses have been built at the wishes of owners/members in order to test players of the highest caliber -- Winged Foot stands out in this regards, Champions down in Houston another example ('69 US Open), Hazeltine (changed a lot from its inception), Oakmont, Firestone South (the RTJ re-do). Some may be viewed as better examples of great architecture than others, but they all seem to be the result of owners/designers wanting challenging courses for top players.

[RJ_Daley]

Phil, you may respectfully disagree with some of my points, but I'll see your 'respectful 'and raise you a 'rightly-so', in that what you say about the USGA being a major contributor to the preliminary hype.   

I wonder if there was some sort of confluence of egos and influence in the parties finding each other to collaborate on the EH project.  Might Mr Lange have been overwhelmed by marketing and influence of the heavy hitters in the golf commentary and GCA arena, by Mr. Whitten, then the selection of Mr. Hurdzan and Fry, and the decision to bring in another well regarded shaper, and the relationship of acquaintence Whitten may have had with key USGA people?  If this all goes south, would we call this a perfect storm of premature promotion and marketing, and ego? 

Maybe Mr. Lange is in a way the fall guy in all this.  Did he have entre to a great potential piece of land, and then get steamrolled by the personalities and influential folks to take this on, only to get banged with a quick remodel cost?   Or, is the USGA funnelling some $$$ Mr. Lange's way to make up for this obvious kick in the pants of projected sales and income? 

I do wonder if there are parrallels to the hype and USGA involvement in the original Hazeltine process that you bring up, Phil.  That is a good one to consider.  You have to laugh at the quips after the big roll out of HN's first US Open and having guys like Dave Hill say "they took a perfectly goo farm and ruined it".

At any rate, I just think it was a leap taken too early at EH.  In a way, I think it could be a lesson for future developers; not to write the reviews and talk in such premature terms, before the venue has a chance to play out its credentials. 

[Dan Moore]

The quality of the terrain is what set off all the hype.  The real question is did they get the best possible course out of that great terrain.  That is a question that remains open.  Having seen the changes which I'll talk about in detail over the next few days, I won't be the least bit surprised to see another round of improvements after the 2011 Amateur, that is if the USGA is still inetrested in EH as an Open venue. 

[Adam Clayman]

Is the clubhouse finished? Did it require any re-dos? Something just irks me when such young courses need to be re-worked so early in their lives.  Re; White jumpsuits are the tell tale signs of CSI. Another attempt at immediate recognition with some of the countries best courses?

[Steve Kupfer]

Steve, I'd say hell yes, put Lawsonia up on your priority list and find another of many closeby venues to enjoy yet a second round that weekend of Packers Bears game.  I'd also skip EH for at least a year, unless you are a curious cat and not prone to regrets that you could have played a more mature and enjoyable golf course rather than examine a work in progress.

RJ- Thanks for the suggestions. I played EH in October 07 but haven't been back since. It appears to be a perfect opportunity to pass it up and enjoy Lawsonia.

What closeby venues would you (or anyone else) recommend?

[Adam Clayman]

If you have the time, make the short trek up to Marquette and play Greywalls.

[RJ_Daley]

Steve, obviously if you have access, Milwaukee has some private clubs that are of interest.  Public option if you can get on this close to US Bank PGA event is Brown Deer.  If you want high end, Kohler courses (although River is under constr-remodel) and Nicklaus's "the Bull" (all about 1 hour from Green Lake).  If you want old and funky, Elkhart Lake's Qui Qui Oc (one hour) or Beaver Dam's Old Hickory (1/2 hour) both have old 9s by Tom Bendelow.  

For something of what I think is a hidden gem, with interesting design, but not overall land planning related more to infra structure than GCA, Eagle Creek just north of Appleton (about 45 mins from Lawsonia) is one I'd suggest with the understanding it is my opinion that it is a hidden gem, you may not think so.  I almost bought it in a distress auction a few years ago, but the land woudn't handle and State didn't allow septic sewer for the club house, and part of three holes are built on another parties land resulting in the need to lease the land and effect the balance sheet in expenses to operate, and some other liability issues.  Yet, I'd say if you're game for something off the beaten path and interesting, try it.  Depending on what your overnight accomodations are for Sat, and want close to Lambeau, Eagle Creek is 1/2 hour away. 

http://www.eaglecreekgolfclub.net/golf/proto/eaglecreekgolfclub/

Of course, many who come to a Packer game (particularly if it is a 3Pm game) play our Brown County Muni that same game day morn. (my home course)  That is also an economical option and good golf.

[Mike Wagner]

With very little time to respond (I'll include more depth of each hole at a later date), I will say this about EH:

They have created a masterpiece.  It's versatility is unparalleled.  For those concerned with length:  It CAN stretch to 8300 yards, but you can play from 6400 or shorter if you want.  The tees from 8300 are not under use, and will provide versatility between reacheable par 4's, long par 5's etc.  This is

The fairways and greens are pure right now and will only get better!  There are a couple new and renovated greens with some sod seams, but they are very playable.  99% of the greens are absolutely perfect!

[RJ_Daley]

I'd be interested in someone's comparative assessment if they've played the K-club or one of the other new Irish inland venues. 

I think EH is the style of design that will generate debate.   I defininitely wouldn't go as far as to say "unparalleled" or "masterpiece".  Yet, I wouldn't say it is anywhere near 'average' either.  It is unique, fine quality of holes, and demanding.  But, those other adjectives are not as far as I'd go, IMO.  I do think that it will be a long series of tweaks over the decades, and will get better with the proper masterplan and stewartship, (which I believe Mr Lange will provide).   There are many of us cheesehead rooting for EH to become a great, highly regarded, and accessible/affordable course to the public golfer.  Yet, it seems to me that the more tweaks it needs, the farther away from affordable it may become, unless the USGA is coughing up serious money to take up the burden of the tweaks, I would have to believe. 

I'm trying to fudge my words because I'm don't want to come off as negative or naysayer.  I think EH has a good future.  And, it is a storybook backdrop of a setting. 

[Steve Kupfer]

RJ- Your recommendations are greatly appreciated. I think the only location I've safely eliminated from consideration is Kohler. I'm looking for something more local and intimate and your suggestions appear spot on.  

The Brown County Muni suggestion is particularly helpful being as it is a Sunday night game, giving us virtually the entire day to enjoy the local area.

[Tim Book]

Mike,

There are (4) of us West Coasters who are going to play the Kohler courses this weekend.  Because the River course is closed I suggested driving down to play EH.  3 of the other guys would never had heard of Erin Hills, but I wanted check it out.  I guess the hype does have some effect.  After checking out the photos I am concerned that I am sending my playing partners down the wrong path.  I am guessing that if you don't care so much about GCA, but want to play a solid track in good shape you should avoid EH at this time?  At this point I am considering trying to slide out to the 'Bull'.  Any suggestions?

[Adam Clayman]

Tim. Do you and your group a huge favor and go str8 west out of Kholer to Green Lake and play Lawsonia. Can't be more than 90 minutes?  it's just passed Ripon, home of the Republican party. 1856(?)