Where are my guys?

[Bradley Anderson]

I miss Tom Paul and Wayne Morrison on here.

Hey I know that there was a lot of acrimony over the Merion debates, but I blame the administrators of GCA for that because they did not intervene when they should have, and things got ugly here. Indeed, the Missing Faces piece should never have even been treated with the legitimacy that it was by our administrators.

But Tom and Wayne contributed a lot to this site and it's not the same here without them.

I think that all those guys in Philadelphia were defending something important to them that was coming at them from outside their territory. And you have to grant them a special privilege in how they went about their defense because there really is nothing else in America like the club they were defending. The Merion mystic is that unique, and few other clubs are as vulnerable to the kind of assault that Merion endured, just because of it's unique place in American golf history, and the complexities of it's genesis.  

I think that the record stands for itself, that there were more olive branches extended from Philadelphia than there were from those who sought to kick out the foundation of one of Philadelphia's, and America's most treasured legends.

I remain a staunch GCA enthusiast, but I miss those guys a lot on here.

[PThomas]

did Tom Paul DEFINITELY quit???

[Bradley Anderson]

And another thing:

The research that was leveled against the legend of Merion, struck me as being of a methodology that did not even exist before internet search engines. The internet has made it possible for anyone to construct almost any view of history that meets their paradigm, and they can do it most convincingly.

However, I never bought it, and I say shame on our administrators for legitimizing it by posting it in the thesis form that it was granted here.

It all seems to have happened and unfolded without even a thought of consideration, on the part of our administrators, for the reputation of Merion.  

But we all have to pay for it by loosing two of our best contributers.

[Bradley Anderson]

did Tom Paul DEFINITELY quit???

Yes I think he has.

[PThomas]

did Tom Paul DEFINITELY quit???

Yes I think he has.

i didnt know that

i hope he  - and Wayne- both consider coming back

i met neither but exhanges IMs with the both and both seemed quite nice...and they certainly were quite knowledgeable

[Anthony Gray]

  If golf is a gentelmans game than a discussion group such as this should remain gentelmanly. It is a shame that at times it is not. At times diferences in opinions are not respected and we fail to see each others as members of the same brotherhood. I have for many years thought that golf transended all other sports because of the character of the men who played it. I must admit after my short time on this site my faith in the superioty of golf hs been diminished. Long live Tom Paul. His memories of a life in golf should be rcorded for all time. And who on this site has not ben inriched by his contributions. I would love to golf TOC with him for his first time and venture over to Anstruther afterwards to the fish bar like many others before us. The meaness on this site has come as a complete surprise to one that has embraced golf as the greatest game played on the greatest land.

  Anthony

[Dale Jackson]

Post edited because it sounded too much like something from the Merion threads

[Bradley Anderson]

did Tom Paul DEFINITELY quit???

Yes I think he has.

i didnt know that

i hope he  - and Wayne- both consider coming back

i met neither but exhanges IMs with the both and both seemed quite nice...and they certainly were quite knowledgeable

Paul,

I had the same experience with both men. Both are gentlemen in my book, and very helpful. The kind of assistance that they have given me, you just don't get from too many people and that's an understatement.

[Adam Clayman]

Bradley, Your blaming the admin for them leaving seems misplaced.

Ran provides the forum and David's essay was well within a level of discourse found here. He deserves recognition for the amount of time and energy he put into it. Right or wrong is immaterial. Facts are currency. Opinions are irrelevant.

[ed_getka]

And another thing:

The research that was leveled against the legend of Merion, struck me as being of a methodology that did not even exist before internet search engines. The internet has made it possible for anyone to construct almost any view of history that meets their paradigm, and they can do it most convincingly.

However, I never bought it, and I say shame on our administrators for legitimizing it by posting it in the thesis form that it was granted here.

It all seems to have happened and unfolded without even a thought of consideration, on the part of our administrators, for the reputation of Merion.  

But we all have to pay for it by loosing two of our best contributers.

Bradley,
   This is a DISCUSSION group. Any topic should be open for discussion. All that is required is for some civility to be applied instead of character assassination. The reality is that most of the wide world of golf is blissfully unaware of what goes on here. The administrators are well aware of what has gone on and what would you have proposed they do? These are grown men participating in the Merion threads, do you really think they need a "parent" intervening?

[Bradley Anderson]

Bradley, Your blaming the admin for them leaving seems misplaced.

Ran provides the forum and David's essay was well within a level of discourse found here. He deserves recognition for the amount of time and energy he put into it. Right or wrong is immaterial. Facts are currency. Opinions are irrelevant.

Adam,

Shouldn't we collectively hope that more than "time and energy" is all that is required to rewrite the history of our most important American golf clubs ?

[Bradley Anderson]

And another thing:

The research that was leveled against the legend of Merion, struck me as being of a methodology that did not even exist before internet search engines. The internet has made it possible for anyone to construct almost any view of history that meets their paradigm, and they can do it most convincingly.

However, I never bought it, and I say shame on our administrators for legitimizing it by posting it in the thesis form that it was granted here.

It all seems to have happened and unfolded without even a thought of consideration, on the part of our administrators, for the reputation of Merion.  

But we all have to pay for it by loosing two of our best contributers.

Bradley,
   This is a DISCUSSION group. Any topic should be open for discussion. All that is required is for some civility to be applied instead of character assassination. The reality is that most of the wide world of golf is blissfully unaware of what goes on here. The administrators are well aware of what has gone on and what would you have proposed they do? These are grown men participating in the Merion threads, do you really think they need a "parent" intervening?

What would I have done if I was an adminstrator of this site is shown enough respect to Merion to have this essay looked at and reviewed by the club in question before publishing it. I mean how can we be the guests of these great clubs if we don't demonstrate that fundemental level of respect?

I may be mistaken, but I think that we will see that our administrators will find themselves less welcome at the great clubs now that one of the greatest of all has been scandalized like Merion has been here.

You don't see that this may be the death knell of GCA? This has all been a friggin debacle from the very beginning.

[John Mayhugh]

Hey I know that there was a lot of acrimony over the Merion debates, but I blame the administrators of GCA for that because they did not intervene when they should have, and things got ugly here. Indeed, the Missing Faces piece should never have even been treated with the legitimacy that it was by our administrators.

But Tom and Wayne contributed a lot to this site and it's not the same here without them.

I think that all those guys in Philadelphia were defending something important to them that was coming at them from outside their territory. And you have to grant them a special privilege in how they went about their defense because there really is nothing else in America like the club they were defending. The Merion mystic is that unique, and few other clubs are as vulnerable to the kind of assault that Merion endured, just because of it's unique place in American golf history, and the complexities of it's genesis.  

I think that the record stands for itself, that there were more olive branches extended from Philadelphia than there were from those who sought to kick out the foundation of one of Philadelphia's, and America's most treasured legends.

The "administrators" have so far done exactly the correct thing. Why should Ran have refused to post Moriarty's essay?  Why shouldn't Ran be permitted to endorse it if he wants to?  Because merely posting it would lead to disagreement and hard feelings?

What is wrong with disagreement?  I think the site benefits from it.  All the guys in Philly needed to do was work together and come up with a counterpoint essay and ask Ran to post it alongside David's.  The Merion mystique would have survived just fine.  The descent into acrimony seems to be based on prior issues just as much as this latest discussion.

Your last sentence about olive branches is pure nonsense unless that all happened behind the scenes.  I could dig up plenty of examples of uncivilty on both sides of the debate.  It's also hard to take you seriously when you try to attribute motives to the enemy ("sought to kick out the foundation").  Do you think it's even possible that David Moriarty believes what he's writing and genuinely wants to uncover new information?

As far as Tom & Wayne's contributions, I didn't see any listed for them or you in 2009.   
http://golfclubatlas.com/contributions

[Kevin_Reilly]

Bradley -- I don't understand this sentence of yours:

we will see that our administrators will find themselves less welcome at the great clubs

Is that your concern?  How is that possible...these are private clubs, generally, and members of the clubs (generally) can invite whoever they wish as a guest (my parenthetical is due to one incident I am aware of at one club where a guest who was under indictment was invited as a guest, and the member was chided for it).

I've read plenty of negative comments about the new work at Olympic here, where I've been a member for 25+ years, and I've responded point by point to inaccuracies or "review by aerial" or "review by reading someone else's opinion", but I haven't lost any sleep about any of the negatives.  I've held people accountable for their comments, and if they aren't prepared to be accountable, then I'll let the chips fall where they may.

As Pat Mucci used to advise newcomers to the group..."have a thick skin".

Every five years or so there is a drama-fest about how the good old days were better.  Here's a similar one from earlier this decade:

One among many "has GCA jumped the shark" or "the old days were better" threads

If you want to keep a discussion group vibrant, start some topics, and talk about golf course architecture.  As one local news guy out here in the Bay Area used to say:  "If you don't like the news, go out and make some of your own."

[Bradley Anderson]

John,

I will grant you that I have no insight into the motives of David in writing his essay. But would you not agree that his essay did call in to question the attribution of Merion? And given Merion's prominence in American golf history and development isn't that kind of serious enough to double check?

I guess if you don't intend to be taken seriously you can let that kind of conjecture get out there for the purpose of strident debate, but is that what you would craft if you were the administrator of GCA? I know I wouldn't.
 

[ed_getka]

John,

I will grant you that I have no insight into the motives of David in writing his essay. But would you not agree that his essay did call in to question the attribution of Merion? And given Merion's prominence in American golf history and development isn't that kind of serious enough to double check?

I guess if you don't intend to be taken seriously you can let that kind of conjecture get out there for the purpose of strident debate, but is that what you would craft if you were the administrator of GCA? I know I wouldn't.
 

Bradley,
   I think it is time to put your money where your mouth is and start your own website. We are talking about a golf club for goodness sake, it isn't that big a deal in the grand scheme of things. I doubt you could find two dozen members of Merion who even know about the threads let alone anyone else in the world outside of our group.

[Bradley Anderson]

ed,

I have no quarrel with you man. But don't wait on me to start a web-site. My money and my mouth are on what I do for a living tomorrow morning, just like you do.

But if I started a web-site to profile the great golf clubs in the world, I wouldn't publish an essay that makes a sham of a great club's history without clearing it with the club first. Would you?

[ed_getka]

Bradley,
   I have no quarrel with you either. I just think you have lost perspective. If I had a website and someone produced something that seemed reasonable to me then I would post it. I most certainly would not seek approval of the golf club, unless the golf club was paying for my website to be up and running, but that would be sort of counter-productive wouldn't it?

[Kevin_Reilly]

But if I started a web-site to profile the great golf clubs in the world

Profiles of great golf courses (not clubs) is only one aspect of this site.  The general "mission" of this site is summed by this statement from the home page:

GolfClubAtlas.com is presented to promote frank commentary on golf course architecture.

[Sean_A]

I like the few Philly guys I have met and I think as a group they are incredibly generous, hospitable and solid citizens.  Its sad that folks take this stuff so seriously as to fall out over it.  I would like to see a lot more people contribute if they are going to be civil.  I have no time for what happened with the Merion threads and if that is what is going to take place the site is better off without people who won't adhere to a reasonable standard of decorum.  I am sure these same folks would never dream of behaving that way in a face to face discussion, so why do it over the net?  I will tell you why, because it was easier than doing the right thing. 

Brad, to point a finger at Ran is outrageous and deserves a very humble apology.  It isn't Ran's job to fact check opinion pieces.  He provides a forum whereby issues can be explored and that is exactly what took place with the Merion threads.  He also voices his opinion like any other member of the group which is his right and priviledge as the site owner.  It doesn't matter a hoot that Philly folks don't like it - thats the way it is.  Instead of carrying on like school yard bullies the Philly lot should have taken advantage of Ran's generosity and posted their own essay(s).  Maybe they still will - it would help to legitimize countless hours of effort on the part of a great many people. 

Ciao

[Tony_Muldoon]

Bradley the ironies in your post are huge.

You blame the Administrators? Whatever happened to personal responsibility for posters own behaviour.  When tension rises each member has the option to stop posting.

As stated above if you don’t like an IMO piece then write your own.

Tom Paul used to frequently say this place is at his best when it’s a Wild West bar fight.  For one of his ‘guys’ to complain that the marshals have finally had enough and kicked out the trouble makers, is funny.

I also disagree where the Olive branches were coming from.  Tom Paul ceaselessly needles and attacks those who are not his ‘guys’, he is very aggressive in this never forgiving or forgetting.  In particular Tom MacWood has been off the site for the same length of time as Wayne Morrison and I would like to see both of them back. Look back over that year or so and you will find hundreds of disparaging remarks from TEP directed at T MacWood's personality.   I’ve been personally attacked by him and if you want to see it for yourself then use the Search function for some of those words your mother told you not to use.  I offered him the last word and said I was taking 7 days off, so he continued his tirade offline.


I missed his last few hours on the site but I’ve been told they were ugly.  For days before that he was acting like he owned the place threatening to get Moriaty kicked off!  I also find the timing curious. He told us he’d recently spent time with Ran so I presume he knew how thin the ice was.  Next he is asked to explain a serious inconsistency in two version of the same document that he transcribed to this site, that formed part of ‘his’ Merion argument.  Despite being asked no explanation has been forthcoming; hostilities were increased and to me it looks like he went out in a ball of flame taking his opponent with him.

When Tom Paul comes back I hope he will explain the inconsistencies in those two versions. We know he keeps in touch with all his ‘guys’ so there’s nothing stopping him explaining it when he reads this.


Anyone who’s been on here for some time has seen this kind of thing before and it’s clear that the moderators don’t have the time and energy to control things until they get out of hand.  I think it is a pity that they can’t find a way to make the group self policing. If enough people flag up that tempers are getting frayed a short 'holiday' period could be invoked.  I can name one serious golf historian who has told me he has no interest in participating here because of the nature of the reception an IMO piece received on here.  The aggressive nitpicking and personal attacks hold the progress of this site back.

[Mark Pearce]

ed,

I have no quarrel with you man. But don't wait on me to start a web-site. My money and my mouth are on what I do for a living tomorrow morning, just like you do.

But if I started a web-site to profile the great golf clubs in the world, I wouldn't publish an essay that makes a sham of a great club's history without clearing it with the club first. Would you?

Bradley,

Don't turn this into another Merion debate.  Your characterisation of the essay doesn't sit well with my reading of it.  It seems to me that the whole Merion debacle reflected very poorly on all the major participants.  It's a shame, because all have a lot to offer but both sides fell well short of the standards of civilized debate I would have expected.  I hope Tom and Wayne come back but I also hope that if they do they come back wiser.

As to your suggestion that the Philadelphia guys offerred more olive branches, that just serves to demonstrate where your sympathy lies, it isn't supported by fact.

Finally, this is a discussion group.  It's up to the participants to choose how they wish to participate.  Your criticism of the moderators is way out of order and would be better aimed at the protagonists in that ridiculous fiasco.

Mark

[Emil Weber]

Bradley,

I can NOT understand why you blame the administrators for that. The only men to blame are 'your guys', because they were disputing about something that really doesn't matter and because they pushed that argument WAY TO FAR, to a point we cannot accept.

[Anthony Gray]

Bradley, Your blaming the admin for them leaving seems misplaced.

Ran provides the forum and David's essay was well within a level of discourse found here. He deserves recognition for the amount of time and energy he put into it. Right or wrong is immaterial. Facts are currency. Opinions are irrelevant.

  Today I got in my wife's new car and hit the button. The chair moved me into my prefered driving position and the mirrors brought every thing into view. So I don't think Marlin Perkins needs to wrestle anacondas enymore. I've been to hollywood Ive been to redwood looking for a heart of gold and all I've found is a cocktail waitress with a Dolly Parton wig. But the path less traveled will not make you a grumpy old fat man with tits that spends his day chaseing kids off his yard. The unibomber had bad hair or couldn't find his comb, but it did not keep him from the ivey leage. It is the percieved little things in life that make it worth the effort. John Lenon may never tell you who the walrus is but you cannot find something unless you look. Success is showing up not setting on the portch and screaming at the refs. So I agree with this profound statement that FACTS ARE CURRENCY in a wrld where Alan Jackson will by riding buicks to the moon. If only we all could go to the lone cypress and listen to the golden seals bark to ten. In the bible Tamar finally got what she wanted. But it is so easy to hide your way to your dreams. But like Tamar many on this site are faceless, so before you stone her, identify who knocked her up. Facts are currency so stay thirsty my friends. She lies and says she's in love with him can't find a better man.

  Anthony Ray Gray DMD

[Eric_Terhorst]

Bradley,

In a search for something else this morning I stumbled across one of the "Honourable Company of Reverse Jans" threads--great antidotes to the Merion threads.

Maybe a hearty laugh would be good for what ails you?