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brad_miller

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Reverse Redans
« on: May 12, 2002, 12:01:03 PM »
Having only played I believe 3 of these rare birds, I am interested to know of others and which might be though of as the best. I have played #7 at Sleepy Hollow, #8 at The Creek and #11 at LA North, which given its setting and length is my pick for best in the world, Pictures of this hole may be seen in GS "The Captain" and in the GCA course profile. Still can't figure where Thomas found the dirt to build up this testing green site.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Patrick_Mucci

Re: Reverse Redans
« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2002, 12:06:44 PM »
Brad,

I've only played The Creek and LA, but I wonder if the elevated tee has a dramatic impact on the look of the hole, but a diminishment on the play of both these holes ?

Might they be more dramatic, more interesting and more challenging if the tee was at about the same height as the green ?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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brad_miller

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Re: Reverse Redans
« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2002, 12:11:26 PM »
LA North sure is dramatic with the tall buildings in the background, FYI SH's is also set off an elevated tee. Come to think of it as longer redans go, the 4th at Riveria is hard to beat with its long carry and "dramatic bunkering"
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:05 PM by -1 »
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Gib_Papazian

Re: Reverse Redans
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2002, 12:17:34 PM »
If you ever get the opportunity, the 12th hole (par-4) at Fishers Island has a terrific Reverse-Redan green.

I'm not sure why more modern architects do not use this strategy on par-4's. If the entrance to the green were wide enough, it would seem to be ideal for a long par four.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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brad_miller

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Re: Reverse Redans
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2002, 12:28:44 PM »
Gib, as I recall from long ago the 2nd shot on 12 plays uphill? Patrick, isn't half the fun of a good redan and/or reverse redan watching the ball role, which might take the 4th at Riveria down a notch as this can't be seen.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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brad_miller

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Re: Reverse Redans
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2002, 12:31:34 PM »
Corey, in the SH master plan aren't they turning the Rredan into a regular one? :) :) :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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corey miller

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Re: Reverse Redans
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2002, 12:42:28 PM »
some changes are in the works but I need a translator to understand them.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Matt_Ward

Re: Reverse Redans
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2002, 01:32:36 PM »
Brad:

A good reverse redan that's local to the NY metro area is the 7th at the Banks Course / Forsgate CC in Jamesburg, NJ. The layout is named for Charles "steam shovel" Banks who mentored under Seth Raynor before going out on his own.

The hole plays to a max of 180 yards from a slightly elevated tee and the green does move very much from high left to lower right with a deep frontal bunker lurking for those who fail to execute. In my mind -- equal to the others you have mentioned and possibly a tad more demanding.

Superb hole -- check it out if you're in the neighborhood.

P.S. Pat, I believe the elevated tee, at least in the case of Forsgate's 7th hole, adds to the dimension of uncertainty in terms of club selection.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Patrick_Mucci

Re: Reverse Redans
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2002, 02:35:54 PM »
Brad,

I'm not sure if it's better to see all of the shot, or hit it and have some mystery, doubt or hope in your mind, as you walk to the green.

NGLA and North Berwick seem to do that well.

Matt,

I had forgotten about Forsgate.
It is a good hole.

Perhaps the reason reverse Redans have elevated tees is the nature of the intended shot.  A hook or draw tends to roll, with the ball performing as the architect intended.  A fade or slice tends not to roll, defeating an element of the play of the hole, and lending itself to the elevated tee, as the tee of preference for reverse Redans.  Just a theory.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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GeoffreyC

Re: Reverse Redans
« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2002, 04:09:47 PM »
I'm not a great fan of downhill redans or naders (reverse redans).  I think they play much better when level or slightly uphill.  The design intent of running a shot from the front of the green and watching it drift to the pin is diminished in downhill versions that play more as dropshot holes.

The old photos of LA North are fantastic but in person today the angle of the shoulder and green don't seem to be ideal.  I like the reverse redan at Sleepy Hollow better.  The angles are better.  Unfortunately, it seems that the hole is due for some changes in the master plan.  From what I could read, they plan to alter the green to accept a front left pin location  ???  >:(  :'(

I'm looking forward to seeing the hole at Forsgate really soon.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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RJ_Daley

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Re: Reverse Redans
« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2002, 05:31:17 PM »
I'll be anxious to see what a few of you gents think of #4 WH in a few weeks! ;D  It is a shortish NADER of about 170 at the tips.  It isn't entirely apparent from the tee that the front left approach and green slope leads around the horn to the tucked back right pins.  Also, there is no backing bunker through the left green slope but instead has a bit of a collection area.  To get it to work right is a very finicky little punchy low shot into the approach, I think. I haven't yet gotten it to perform like I believe it should with the perfect shot ::)  Another long and demanding into the wind redan awaits you on the backside at 13.  But once again, it is a slight deviation from the exact redan traditional style, yet unmistakeable as being in the family of redans.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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ChipOat

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Re: Reverse Redans
« Reply #11 on: May 12, 2002, 06:54:58 PM »
The Links Golf Club in Manhassett (LI) which has been NLE since the 80's had a wonderful reverse Redan - #11, I think.

200 yards from the back with a DEEP bunker on the right.  Not quite as "bounceable" into the green as the classic design but a darn good hole, nonetheless.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Gene Greco

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Re: Reverse Redans
« Reply #12 on: May 12, 2002, 06:59:40 PM »
Sand Hills #3. What a hoot!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"...I don't believe it is impossible to build a modern course as good as Pine Valley.  To me, Sand Hills is just as good as Pine Valley..."    TOM DOAK  November 6th, 2010

mark studer

Re: Reverse Redans
« Reply #13 on: May 12, 2002, 07:49:38 PM »
the 6th at fox chapel GC (recently  completed some fine bunker restoration with Silva's help) plays about 187yds usually downwind and  plays classically downhill from front to back, often disguising  the depth of the hole placement unless it is cut on the front third.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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TEPaul

Re: Reverse Redans
« Reply #14 on: May 12, 2002, 08:09:24 PM »
Chip Oat:

I remember that reverse redan at The Links really well--one of the best holes on the course and one of the best reverse redans I've ever seen. The green orientation was a perfect redan orientation, just in the reverse. I remember well playing it--never did play it very well, though, it was a sophisticated shot requirment for a young golfer--but my Dad belonged there and he and his good playing friends would always try and "cut" 4 woods in there low--it was the shot called for on that hole--the reverse exactly of a drawn tee shot into a regular redan.

It was a shot I bet very few good players could even hit any more and it was fun to see--fun to remember. Too bad that hole is gone and the course is NLE--really too bad!

How you doing MarkS? Did you get my books?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:05 PM by -1 »
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Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: Reverse Redans
« Reply #15 on: May 12, 2002, 08:25:13 PM »
#16 at St.Louis is an excellent reverse Redan.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Lynn_Shackelford

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Re: Reverse Redans
« Reply #16 on: May 12, 2002, 10:07:49 PM »
11th at Country Club of Charleston is the wildest one I have seen.  Hogan wanted it blown up.  In a medal play event I would be content with bogey 4 and move on.  Or as our hero Ken V. would say, "he'll walk quietly." ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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It must be kept in mind that the elusive charm of the game suffers as soon as any successful method of standardization is allowed to creep in.  A golf course should never pretend to be, nor is intended to be, an infallible tribunal.
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RJ_Daley

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Re: Reverse Redans
« Reply #17 on: May 12, 2002, 10:28:46 PM »
Lynn, I think I just sent you one of my prize pictures of that 11th CC of C.  I often haul that picture out and just dream of going back there and playing it.  But, is it a true Nader?  It doesn't have the true kickin back slope if you fade (righty) your ball in and look for a channeling roll to back pin.  But what it has is a razor sharp edge sweeping in from far left and the crisp edge fronts the green to a fearsome false front, and splits to look like a straight edge line forming the back of the green from front left to all the way back right rear.  Of course over that edge is the steep backside bunker.  The front is almost a butte or knoll like face from the redan bunker.  It is soooo cool, but only a redan nader cousin in my mind because of the missing kick mound.  What do you think?

I've got to start spell checking.... :P
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:05 PM by -1 »
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Gib_Papazian

Re: Reverse Redans
« Reply #18 on: May 12, 2002, 11:34:20 PM »
Brad,

Most of the time you can't get a clear view of where the ball is rolling to on Redan holes - at least the ones I have played.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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TomSteenstrup

Re: Reverse Redans
« Reply #19 on: May 13, 2002, 01:26:45 AM »
Is the 2nd at Kapalua Plantation a reverse redan?

 ???

Tom
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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TEPaul

Re: Reverse Redans
« Reply #20 on: May 13, 2002, 04:54:28 AM »
Like many things and most terms in golf the meaning of the word itself can tell much. In my opinion the term "redan" is very much this way and obviously the original redan concept was meant to adhere to the military etymology of the word. That fact may have became lost on subsequent architects if they even cared to adhere to the basic principle of the military meaning of the word.

Being a military term, a redan indicates a military fortification--one that should be defensible. And there was not an early military man worth his ensignia that did not scout the landscape for high ground for his fortification! The reasons are completely commonsensical--high ground is far more easily defended.

That fact was probably not lost on C.B Macdonald when he transported the redan concept to NGLA and America from N. Berwick. Therefore to me, the best redans are greens that are raised to the tee, and the perfect redan shot is one that enters from the side and is a shot the golfer will lose visibility on when it filters on the ground left (or right in a reverse redan) and enters the area of the pin (the heart of the enemy's fortification symbolically).

But the basic redan green concept can be a loose one and has been done in many configurations obviously. But I think the high green site is the best of all as it sticks with not only the original golf architectural prototype but also the original military etymology of the word!

NGLA's is the best I've seen overall in America simply because of its overall structure but also it's orientation and it proabaly is a bit above the tee (it certainly is raised above its own surrounds (on a tabletop as C.B described)).

The best right to left redan for height though is Piping Rock's #3 and the best reverse redan for height is unquestionalbly Philadelphia C.C.'s #15 about 235yds now and about 35ft above the tee!! The latter was from William Flynn an architect that built all kinds of variations on the redan concept. Matter of fact, Philadelphia C.C.'s #7 is a regular redan. Is there any other course anywhere that has two redans? I doubt it. I guess you could say Fishers does but #12 is just its green concept--it's not a par 3.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:05 PM by -1 »
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Ran Morrissett

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Re: Reverse Redans
« Reply #21 on: May 13, 2002, 05:32:00 AM »
The 11th at LA North is by far the best Reverse Redan one shotter that I've ever seen. Given that the hole runs down a valley and given the crunchy firm fairways, there is plenty of forward kick from a shot hit left of the green (much more so than the kikuyu will allow at the 4th at Riviera).

In fact, I would nominate the 11th at LA North as one of the least talked about holes amongst the world's greats. I don't know why that is  ???  It's a stunner to look at and there several ways to play.

Yes, Bell's ragged bunker edges have been smoothed over but it still plays as Thomas intended - and that's saying a lot.

Cheers,
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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BCrosby

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Re: Reverse Redans
« Reply #22 on: May 13, 2002, 06:49:06 AM »
Cuscowilla has both a regular and reverse Redan.  Neither are exact replicas, but their playing strategies are certainly Redanesque.

No. 3, about 200 yards, slightly uphill.  The perfect shot is a draw that lands left of the green and takes the ridge towards a left/middle pin.  Instead of a front bunker, there is finger of the lake.

No. 8, about 230 yards, slightly downhill.  A Reverse Redan. The perfect shot is a fade to the left edge of the green.  The hole does not have a kick-in backslope, however.

I would also add no. 12 at Athens Country Club (GA), a wonderful Reverse Redan, about 220.  About as close as I've seen any Ross-designed hole to being a Redan/Reverse Redan.

Bob
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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FPD

Re: Reverse Redans
« Reply #23 on: May 13, 2002, 07:20:21 AM »
The 8th at Knollwood, a Raynor/Banks design north of NYC. It's an uphill 196 yard reverse redan with an almost impossible green.This green was unfortunately redone 5-6 yrs ago because the membership complained it was too severe. You still cannot hold the green if you miss it left. If you miss it right you better hope you catch the bunkers or you will be dead down the hill in the woods. A very challenging par 3.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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GeoffreyC

Re: Reverse Redans
« Reply #24 on: May 13, 2002, 07:49:14 AM »
FPD-  good call with Knollwood.  I discussed this hole recently as well after playing it with the pro.  The new green is still difficult and canted severely from left to right but the alterations took away the redan characteristics that allow running approaches. Its certainly easier to make par from the right hillside or bunkers then it is from left of that green. This is/was an uphill version with good orientation  of the green.

Ran-  did anyone in your group play the hole (#11 at LA North) as intended?  My ball ran thru the shoulder although it didn't have as much hook as intended.  I would have liked to hang around and throw a few balls around the green or play a few additional tee shots to see how it works.  It is visually stunning but the orientation didn't seen quite right.  Also, I really like Tom Paul's description of the fortification aspects of the redan with the final destination (the pin) hidden from view.  I don't think a downhill version can be all world. Still a wonderful hole - but...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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