GCA about Road hole and Redan

[Steve Salmen]

If tee markers were placed somewhere in the 120-200 yard range in the middle of the 17th fairway of The Old Course (turning it into a par 3), could a very strong argument be made that it is a Redan? 

[Melvyn Morrow]

Steve

Perhaps have a look at the Links Trust pictures of TOC Road Hole.

The full aerial picture of the hole and


the aerial approach to the Green.


I will make no comment than post the pictures, sorry no aerial of the Redan.

Melvyn

[Melvyn Morrow]

Steve

Have just looked at NB web page and attach their map of the Redan


Melvyn

[ed_getka]

Steve,
    I don't think so from my recollection of that green. The green doesn't fall away to the back left, and although there is some slope (if memory serves) to help move the ball from right to left it is pretty subtle and I wouldn't think a reliable way to work your ball around the bunker.
    The green does sit on a diagonal to the line of play and the road over the green is a suitable hazard for going long, but those are the main similarities I see.

[Tom_Doak]

Steve:

The angle is relatively the same, but the Road hole has NO sideslope to help work the ball around the bunker nor to hold up a big cut shot, so I certainly wouldn't call this shot a "Redan".

It's a good post though, because it shows just how clearly some people want to turn a hole into a Redan or a Biarritz or a Road hole even when that was not the architect's original intent ... and luckily I don't think there are enough Allan Robertson disciples on GCA to start a 1,000-post thread about whether he stole the idea from North Berwick!  The truth is just that simple angles and strategies (or a swale through a green) work well for a variety of holes, but a swale through a green isn't always inspired by the Biarritz.

[Steve Salmen]

Tom,

There was one hole in particular that caused me to put up this post.  When I was doing the thread on Chicago, I noticed that #2 is their Road Hole.  I also noticed that the green fell away at the back left.  It is more severe and more of a Redan than #17 at TOC and has a bunker guarding the back left portion of the green.   It was just something that got me thinking and wanted to know if others ever thought about it.  Thanks.

Thanks Ed,

I know it's not severely sloped but I believed a draw will feed toward the back left.  Appreciate the post.

Steve

[Adrian_Stiff]

It might not quite be a redan but its not far away. There is a sideslope if you put the teemarkers for a par 3, slightly left of centre of the fairway and back left certainly does slope. (see the green plan in Scott MacPherson's book)

Redan or redanesque, all holes are a bit different. I am suprised the 17th TOC green is not more copied I think its a better ground game green complex than a redan is, although I think its more suited to guard an easier hole than a tougher one.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Tom

 I do not wish to say anything against Allan Robertson, but we must remember his age (being only 6 years older than Old Tom). Also some have credited Allan with a few feats that may not actually stand up to full inspection i.e. the Hole O’Cross double green work circa 1832 which was by Old Daw Anderson but a few say Allan is also to be co-credited for the double green. Allan was a boy of 17 in 1832. 

As for the Redan at NB this hole was not built until the late 1868/9 nearly ten years after the death of Allan – to put a timeline on it and perhaps to prove that history can come in useful sometime when not playing a specific course.

Melvyn

[Niall C]

It might not quite be a redan but its not far away. There is a sideslope if you put the teemarkers for a par 3, slightly left of centre of the fairway and back left certainly does slope. (see the green plan in Scott MacPherson's book)

Redan or redanesque, all holes are a bit different. I am suprised the 17th TOC green is not more copied I think its a better ground game green complex than a redan is, although I think its more suited to guard an easier hole than a tougher one.

Adrian

Interesting. So back in the old days when they used to play the course in reverse, and the green was approached from somewhere on the 1st/18th fairway, if there is a bank/slope on the road side of the green as you say, would that not then make the green play as a reverse redan ?

Niall

[Adrian_Stiff]

Niall - No I don't think that is a reverse redanfrom that way because primarly there is no slide slope that falls away until the very back. There are two distinct low points, one from the 1st/18th is the front, the other is proper front left just infront of road bunker. We don't know what was cut and what wasn't in those early days, but ofcourse that green was intended to be played from both the 1st/18th and from its current alignment although until 1964 it was a par 5.

[Niall C]

my mistake, I was thinking the slope was back right as you play it normally, not back left as you suggest.

Niall