[Patrick_Mucci]

Has watching the U.S. Open and enduring extensive rain in the Northeast from April 15 to current date, heightened your appreciation for good drainage ?

Do we take drainage for granted when we play a golf course ?

Do we overlook it as a critical architectural element ?

Are elevated greens the first line of defense ?

[Adam Clayman]

Wouldn't the soil make-up be the first? Having 18 raised greens sure would seem awfully repetitive on approach.

Pre-modern irrigation, weren't many greens set into bowls to extend the moisture effects?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Wouldn't the soil make-up be the first?

It's pretty difficult to change the soil make-up

Having 18 raised greens sure would seem awfully repetitive on approach.

It seems to work at Sand Hills and most Donald Ross golf courses

Pre-modern irrigation, weren't many greens set into bowls to extend the moisture effects?

I don't think so, I think push-up greens were more the norm.

[Philip Spogard]

A lot of older links courses have greens in 'bowls' - most likely because of good moisture retention and increased growth of finer grasses.

[Mike Sweeney]

Have to go with Clayman here. I will take sand over good drainage any day.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Doesn't change my opinion, always thought it important. Anyone would go with sand over catch basins, but you can't change the soil, as PM notes, except if you want to spend a million sand capping and then you only transfer your problem down a foot.

Getting water into appropriately located and sized catch basins quickly would sure reduce the drainage time from waiting for it to seep through the soil.  BP just proves that.

[Ian Andrew]

Wouldn't the soil make-up be the first? Having 18 raised greens sure would seem awfully repetitive on approach.

Pre-modern irrigation, weren't many greens set into bowls to extend the moisture effects?

It still has to get through the turf and thatch.
They restrict the perculation rate.
If you get enough rain - like at Bethpage - you get puddles anywhere.
 
I've seen standing water at Bandon and on links courses in the UK.
Surface drainage is just as important as sub-surface.

[Patrick_Mucci]

A lot of older links courses have greens in 'bowls' - most likely because of good moisture retention and increased growth of finer grasses.

Could you identify those courses in the U.S., links or otherwise, that have greens in bowls ?

Mike Sweeney,

It's not a question of preference, it's a question of fact.

Just for starters, tell me how you're going to get sandy soil at Winged Foot, Baltusrol, San Francisco, Medinah, Aronomink, Merion, Ridgewood and Oakmont ?

Unless you think that Architects have the ability to choose the soil where the prospective club is sited.

[David_Madison]

I'd start with great surface drainage. When we played down at Cuscowilla a few years ago there were a series of pounding thunderstorms. It was the most amazing thing watching the water shed off the course and into drainage basins tucked away in the rough, behind shrubs, and so on. Nowhere did we see water just sit there. Every fairway had sufficient slope, contour, subtle little ridges, runs, and other water moving features, yet when dry those features looked totally natural and created variety in the lies you had. After what could have been an inch or more of rain in an hour the course was ready to play very quickly. This was in the middle of Georgia, not a sand belt. C&C did a masterful job of routing the water without a single drainage basin in a fairway. While many of the greens were elevated and I'm sure were sand based, a number were low-lying and sloped from front to back.

[Ben Sims]

Jeff,

Good to see you on the drainage thread.  I am reminded of your Wildhorse in Davis.  We've spoken about it before on the site.  But after playing many of the "great" courses in the Northern Cali area, I consider Wildhorse to be among the best draining course I've ever played. The coolest thing is that Wildhorse proves that sand isn't the only thing conducive to great drainage.  The slopes and drainage areas effectively make the fairways more fun as well as promoting the fastest water collection that I know of in the delta region.

As many have noted--and I agree--sand is paramount in effective and what I'll call "true" drainage.  True drainage meaning that you have percolation--hopefully without leaching--into the subsoil and effectively leave the playing surface dry (or dryer I should say) without just transferring your water elsewhere on the course.

Maybe I am reaching for straws here, but is there a concept of "true drainage"?

[Charlie Goerges]

Could you identify those courses in the U.S., links or otherwise, that have greens in bowls ?

Painswick 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 10, 15 and half-bowls would add a few more. No irrigation.

[Adam Clayman]

Ian, It is a question of time and degrees. The fastest drying I know of, has always been on sand. Yes, even Ballyneal this last fortnight had some standing water after 5 inches in 90 minutes. But for how long? I'm not exactly sure, but I'd bet it wasn't long or in many spots.

 Who here isn't aware of the fastest drying course in their area?

Pat, I should've said pre irrigation, not just modern. Also, Are you contending SH has 18 raised greens?

 

[Norbert P]

A. Do we overlook it as a critical architectural element ?


B.  Are elevated greens the first line of defense ?

A. I hope not.  Without good drainage networking you can't plant grass that will be consistent or get good firmness characteristics. Players may not see why a patch of grass is yellow because the irrigation may only be running at night and players don't ever see that standing water, but the Super knows and he might have to fight that construction issue forever.

B.  It shouldn't be. But a green can be elevated with a good tie-in to hide the fact that it is elevated.


There are a lot of extenuating variables to take into account with drainage. For example, if a slope flows onto the fairway, the water should be caught before it can get to the fairway. Doing this allows more options of shaping on the fairway. But that shaping still has to flow from high to low with no pockets unless one is willing to allow surface drains to be present. Sometimes they are unavoidable but are ideally kept out of general landing areas.   Cut and fill issues always have to have drainage in mind.

[Mike Sweeney]

Unless you think that Architects have the ability to choose the soil where the prospective club is sited.

Yes, they do but it comes back to cost. The sand capping was the first defense at MPCC, then came the drainage:

http://www.mikestrantzdesign.com/articles/RecoveryMPCC.pdf

All said and done, Mike’s team rerouted all eighteen holes, engaged in the West Coast’s
largest removal of non-native vegetation by removing forty-five acres of non-indigenous ice
plant, and used the first full-course sand capping in America. This process of laying drainage
every fifteen feet (a total of forty-two miles of pipe lie below the grass surface at MPCC) and
applying PermOPoreTM is so innovative, so new, that superintendents throughout the Pebble
Beach area flocked to MPCC to understand its construction and implementation. The sand
capping process was tedious, but the 6,853yard long course is now playable twelve months of the
year and maintenance problems are significantly decreased.

Patrick, how many sand based courses do you/have you  belonged to as opposed to clay based?

[Niall C]

Watching the coverage last night I was surprised by how many of the greens were raised, and on how many of them you couldn't see the green surface from the approach area. Can't imagine that would be tolerated on a modern course, not that I'm saying it is a bad design feature as such but it did look as though it was overused.

Patrick

Re; greens in "bowls" on links courses - think of dell type holes and other greens located in hollows. A lot of the old courses built pre irrigation did have this design. Other examples would be the 13th (?) at North Berwick with the green tucked behind the wall. Another way of having water retention was to have a layer of clay a foot or so beneath the surface.

Niall

[Jeff_Brauer]

I am not even sure its a matter of degrees.  All soils hold a certain amount of water and get saturated at a certain point.
Sand, of course, performs best, but it varies.

The fact is that slope and providing surface inlets removes several inches of water without it having to "soak in."  Mike Strantz tile system every 15' or other systems that rely on soaking through soil won't remove water as fast as a catch basins.  Soils have a small percentage of pore space to allow water to move through. A catch basin is virtually unimpeded.  If large enough (ditto for the pipe sizes) a drainage system can take virtually any amount of rain that falls.

Budgets usually preclude draining all but the smallest storms on golf courses, or everday up to maybe once every 2 to 5 years storms.  There is a trade off in occaisionally having lots of rain for a big event (like the US Open) and paying to drain that event.  But for most courses, some semblance of being able to put that big outing back out on the course soon after all but the biggest rains helps the bottom line.

Of course, this lecture is brought to you by CB (catch basin) Brauer.  I have been hammered on this site (mostly by the long departed Tommy N) for advocating drainage via catch basins.  But, as Ben notes, I do know how to drain a course built in clay soils and drain it quickly.  I realize that catch basins near greens and in oft used landing zones can detract from the play experience, even if 200 catch basins totaling perhaps 300 sq feet rarely affect play, being literally 0.007% of the total turf surface area of a golf course.  IMHO, that is not a bad tradeoff to get water off your course and keep your soils from being saturated periodically.

[James Bennett]

It still has to get through the turf and thatch.
They restrict the perculation rate.
If you get enough rain - like at Bethpage - you get puddles anywhere.
 
I've seen standing water at Bandon and on links courses in the UK.
Surface drainage is just as important as sub-surface.

Turf and thatch are encouraged by constant irrigation, whether that be from the heavens above or the local irrigation system.  They limit the ability of a course to withstand downpours.

How much rain (from the heavens above) did the Long Island area receive on the day?  In the preceding fortnight?

James B

[Mark Luckhardt]

For optimum playing surfaces on pushup greens, a combination of surface and subsurface drainage elements would be needed, even on sandier subsoils such as Bethpage this past weekend. A subsurface drainage amendment at Bethpage may or may not have been helpful with the information I have, the info I have suggests it would have proved helpful, especially how elevated the greens were.  Surface and subsurface groundwater would have moved in to and through the soil profile several times during continuous downpours. Only firming up greens faster than they could have without internal drainage.

[TX Golf]

San Francisco GC was built on old sand Dunes and in turn I have heard has as much as 15-20 feet of sand under the surface.

[Joe Perches]

even Ballyneal this last fortnight had some standing water after 5 inches in 90 minutes. But for how long? I'm not exactly sure, but I'd bet it wasn't long or in many spots.

One of the things that surprised me at BN was the number of catch basins in what seemed to me odd locations.
200' depth of sand with catch basins?  Anyone know why?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Could you identify those courses in the U.S., links or otherwise, that have greens in bowls ?

Painswick 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 10, 15 and half-bowls would add a few more. No irrigation.

I didn't know that Painswick was in the U.S.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Are you contending SH has 18 raised greens?

18 ?  No.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Unless you think that Architects have the ability to choose the soil where the prospective club is sited.

Yes, they do but it comes back to cost. The sand capping was the first defense at MPCC, then came the drainage:
Sand Capping can't cure drainage problems, it can only ameliorate them.

You're still left with the same sub-soil properties.

MPCC has reserves beyond the imagination of most clubs.

http://www.mikestrantzdesign.com/articles/RecoveryMPCC.pdf

All said and done, Mike’s team rerouted all eighteen holes, engaged in the West Coast’s
largest removal of non-native vegetation by removing forty-five acres of non-indigenous ice
plant, and used the first full-course sand capping in America. This process of laying drainage
every fifteen feet (a total of forty-two miles of pipe lie below the grass surface at MPCC) and
applying PermOPoreTM is so innovative, so new, that superintendents throughout the Pebble
Beach area flocked to MPCC to understand its construction and implementation. The sand
capping process was tedious, but the 6,853yard long course is now playable twelve months of the
year and maintenance problems are significantly decreased.

Notice that they said, "decreased", NOT eliminated.

Patrick, how many sand based courses do you/have you belonged to as opposed to clay based?

About an equal amount.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Watching the coverage last night I was surprised by how many of the greens were raised, and on how many of them you couldn't see the green surface from the approach area. Can't imagine that would be tolerated on a modern course, not that I'm saying it is a bad design feature as such but it did look as though it was overused.

Patrick

Re; greens in "bowls" on links courses - think of dell type holes and other greens located in hollows. A lot of the old courses built pre irrigation did have this design. Other examples would be the 13th (?) at North Berwick with the green tucked behind the wall. Another way of having water retention was to have a layer of clay a foot or so beneath the surface.

Niall,

I was referencing courses in the U.S.

[Charlie Goerges]

Could you identify those courses in the U.S., links or otherwise, that have greens in bowls ?

Painswick 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 10, 15 and half-bowls would add a few more. No irrigation.

I didn't know that Painswick was in the U.S.

Well you mentioned Links courses, of which there are none in the US, so I figured UK was open for discussion.

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